Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #124

[sunshineray]

My apologies but who is Cheyenne?

A young woman walking on the bridge and taking photos that day, around the 3:15 timeframe.

 

[Angleterre]

A young woman walking on the bridge and taking photos that day, around the 3:15 timeframe.

Thank you

 

[Angleterre]

Kik is a messaging app, it's known for its anonymity features (for example, unlike Facebook, which asks you for a valid phone number and email address, Kik lets you register as a user without providing your phone number). However, IP addresses are logged by the company to the best of my knowledge.

Thank you

 

[sunshineray]

My apologies but who is Cheyenne?

Can I ask, how do you know that the Police Chief went off script ? I am not being snarky but I am genuinely interested if you know that for a fact and if so , where it was reported? I ask because it could be that the Police Chief was communicating with the killer. In previous hi profile cases, the narcissist within the perpetrator has created a need to have his ego stroked and himself elevated to a role of importance and more importantly, the need to feel that he is far superior intelligence wise . This was seen during the BTK investigation and ultimately led to Dennis Radars downfall . So I ask the question, in generalised terms and not directly to you obviously, could the Police Chief have been communicating with BG through his press conference? It’s a thought that I am not willing to dismiss easily out of hand.

I'm one who believes ISP Carter was doing that and by his body language and facial expressions was a very uncomfortable man at that conference. I believe it's very possible the killer was there.

 

[Yemelyan]

@Angleterre We know Carter went off script because 1. He made statements that were wrong or unclear that had to be clarified by the ISP two days later and 2. The official ISP press release had actual quotes in it that were different from what he said aloud at the press conference. For these reasons, IMO he went off script a bit, not majorly, in the emotion of the moment.

Official press release is here:
New 'Face' of the Delphi Murder Suspect

 

[K.jill]

All I know is, to me, ISP Carter was about on edge as a spokesperson could be and he was glaring out into the room as he said some of the more accusatory things he said that day. His body language was shouting of unease and his delivery reeked of betrayal. This is AJMO, that is how I ingested it.

If Carter was off script when he stated that the killer may be in the room I believe someone he suspected and was furious with was in the room.
If he was on script then I think they were watching attendees for a reaction.

 

[Yemelyan]

If Carter was off script when he stated that the killer may be in the room I believe someone he suspected and was furious with was in the room.
If he was on script then I think they were watching attendees for a reaction.

His emotions are always high. He gave remarks once about the Flora fire that were similarly expressive. I think he was emotional because he had just updated the families and was feeding off their emotions of grief, shock, etc too.

I actually really like Carter and his passion. However, I realize that he's more a politician than a cop. He might be the figurehead, the "buck stops here" person, but make no mistake, he's not out there running down alibis and knocking on sex offenders' doors. He's been briefed on everything but he has no investigative role, IMO.

What I do think, which I've written here before, is that though he ad libbed parts of his speech, some of it was written with a particular behavioral profile in mind and I am sure the FBI had input on that. Especially the emphasis on "two LITTLE girls" and control.

When he glared out into the room and addressed the killer directly, IMO he was staring straight into the media's cameras. You can see photos of the room setup for the press conference on Google and see where the media were.

Edit to add: at the April 2019 press conference, some detectives were to Carter's immediate left but just off camera and other detectives and FBI agents were along the back wall of the room along with the DA Nick McCleland.

 

[MistyWaters]

His emotions are always high. He gave remarks once about the Flora fire that were similarly expressive. I think he was emotional because he had just updated the families and was feeding off their emotions of grief, shock, etc too.

I actually really like Carter and his passion. However, I realize that he's more a politician than a cop. He might be the figurehead, the "buck stops here" person, but make no mistake, he's not out there running down alibis and knocking on sex offenders' doors. He's been briefed on everything but he has no investigative role, IMO.

What I do think, which I've written here before, is that though he ad libbed parts of his speech, some of it was written with a particular behavioral profile in mind and I am sure the FBI had input on that. Especially the emphasis on "two LITTLE girls" and control.

When he glared out into the room and addressed the killer directly, IMO he was staring straight into the media's cameras. You can see photos of the room setup for the press conference on Google and see where the media were.

Edit to add: at the April 2019 press conference, some detectives were to Carter's immediate left but just off camera and other detectives and FBI agents were along the back wall of the room along with the DA Nick McCleland.

This is a video of the first press conference Feb 22, 2017, only 8 days after the bodies were found.

Carter begins speaking at 5 minutes into the video. It’s a really great delivery even though he relies on his notes. What I found interesting is the overall message really hasn’t changed in the following 3 years.

And I notice the same type of glaring off to the side plus other facial expressions which are obviously not unique to the April, 2019 PC.

 

[MizStery]

What I do think, which I've written here before, is that though he ad libbed parts of his speech, some of it was written with a particular behavioral profile in mind

Yes Yemelyan! I have attempted to compile from my notes a rudimentary profile. With no training in criminal profiling it is just a compilation of my own collective thoughts and my impressions of BG. I have crossed out and ‘changed my profile list’ adding ‘new‘ or ‘removing’ ideas as revised information has been revealed by LE..My list on BG is a mess even I can hardly read it.
​

When he glared out into the room and addressed the killer directly, IMO he was staring straight into the media's cameras.

Thank-you that was my exact impression it was as much a confrontation as it was a press conference.​

I am writing or rewriting a new post attempting to express my thoughts after taking a break from posting. I definitely feel conflicted on what up to now I thought I knew. To be blunt I doubt or I am revising much of what I believed a year ago.


In other words truth is not the orthodoxy that just an enlightened few believe in and whose job it is to inform everyone else but rather a process of collective discovery that we share with one another.

Thanks to all posters for your ideas.

My opinion only.

 

[JnRyan]

There are so many cases today that get solved with science and technology. But when people start acting like the detectives did so much work, I think otherwise. I think investigators in the 1970's and 1980's would have used the same technology if it had been available to them at that time. This case has the potential to become a case study for why good detective work still matters. Not every case can be solved with science.

If the case turns out the way I think it is headed, I think the biggest shock to everyone will be how far off the police were when it came to the direction of their investigation. If it turns out the way police think, that the killer has probably already been talked to by LE, and is probably known to someone in Delphi or around the local area who just is not talking, then it will look like the investigation was indeed headed in the right direction the entire time.

The quote that really made me think the investigation has nothing came from the superintendent in one of the news interviews on the 3rd anniversary of the crime. The quote was, "If we hit year 4 I hope we are sitting here again." That quote made me think the investigation has gone as far as it can go with the information that has been released to the public, and the only thing left to do is wait.

That LE has already talked to the killer? Yeah, that's one scenario I and some others on here have wondered about. They currently have between 50K and 60K in tips if I remember correctly. Granted, there will be a LOT of meaningless tips, but that amount of tips is easily 10-20 times what LE usually gets. For example, we have the case of Suzanne Morphew on here going into its 3rd month blowing up the threads here and LE has stated they have 600 tips. At this point in Abigail and Liberty's case, LE already had 15,000 tips.
Indiana teens' mysterious murders still unsolved 2 months later, leaving fear, frustration in Delphi
That's 25 times the number of tips the Morphew case has gotten with a sheriff's dept, FBI and CBI involved. And we're not talking about NYC or Los Angeles with Abigail and Liberty but a town of less than 5K in a county of less than 22K. I know we've been told to not concern ourselves with the volume because the FBI has a software called Pyramid that allows for management of tips. Even with 15K in tips that early management is going to be daunting with any software package. I would imagine that software is used on many other cases as well and the volume of tips is nowhere near what has been experienced here. The original task force had between 100 and 200 staff members with, in addition to Delphi PD, Carroll County SO, FBI and ISP, investigators temporarily on loan to the task force from LE agencies throughout the state. With that many investigators following up on tips communication between investigators is going to be more complex and when the loaned investigators go away the current group is left with the notes of these loaned LE personnel. That is not the same as the face-to-face meeting up with a person mentioned in a tip. And Pyramid is subject to the same rule that applies to all other software packages - Garbage In, Garbage Out - IOW, the product is only as good as what is entered into it.

I believe you are correct when you state that when this case is solved, it will be a case study for not just how LE solved it, but for what went astray as well. I believe it is very likely someone in LE spoke to the killer already and maybe in the first few months of the investigation.

 

[MizStery]

<Respectfully Snipped By Me>The original task force had between 100 and 200 staff members with, in addition to Delphi PD, Carroll County SO, FBI and ISP, investigators temporarily on loan to the task force from LE agencies throughout the state. With that many investigators following up on tips communication between investigators is going to be more complex and when the loaned investigators go away the current group is left with the notes of these loaned LE personnel. That is not the same as the face-to-face meeting up with a person mentioned in a tip.

Excellent analysis of the formidable odds confronting investigators.

 

[Blue Amethyst]

@Spellbound transcribed this back on thread #65

I think this is the transcribed section for the video you are referring to.

Found Deceased - IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #65

(From Part 2 section)

A: When you walked down and I walked through, that was private property right where the bodies were found. Looking at it logistically from where they were on the bridge and to where their bodies were found, I know we talked about the terrain in the past. I know it's not an easy thing to navigate. Usually you might have to be familiar with the area. I mean, would it have been difficult for the girls to from where they were on the bridge to where they were found?

H: [10:49] Yeah. Absolutely. I think it would be difficult, obviously. They have to go through some pretty steep terrain in a wooded area, sticker bushes and things like that, so it's uh ... and then to cross the creek. The creek, and obviously it's February, it's probably not the warmest . The weather was a warm day that day, but still the water temperature is probably cooler than the air temperature. So yeah, it would have been difficult for .... I mean, I don't think anybody, say on a walk, would walk that way.

At one time I thought maybe BG followed the girls across the bridge and then down the north side. This article shows why they did not. Also because there was crime scene tape only on the south end of the bridge.

LE knows the difference from the time of the BG photo to the audio. If it was a matter of minutes then they had to cross the creek as there wasn’t enough time to recross the bridge.

I also think they were searching the creek for more evidence because they had indeed crossed the creek. If there was evidence of clothing then they were pretty certain.

I don’t recall LE searching the north end of the bridge or the creek under it. That kind of clinched it in my mind that they indeed had crossed the creek. MOO

 

[Maplesyrup]

That’s similar to how I understood Leazenby when he remarked “I know that voice”. IIRC he was asking for tips and verbally demonstrating the thought process of somebody who really did know that voice along with all the rest of it, hoping it would yield results.

Do you mean as in Leazenby would thereby validate someones suspicion that their tip indeed WAS worthwhile and to please call it in because LE really does think the person is local and therefore will take their tip seriously?

 

[Yemelyan]

At one time I thought maybe BG followed the girls across the bridge and then down the north side. This article shows why they did not. Also because there was crime scene tape only on the south end of the bridge.

LE knows the difference from the time of the BG photo to the audio. If it was a matter of minutes then they had to cross the creek as there wasn’t enough time to recross the bridge.

I also think they were searching the creek for more evidence because they had indeed crossed the creek. If there was evidence of clothing then they were pretty certain.

I don’t recall LE searching the north end of the bridge or the creek under it. That kind of clinched it in my mind that they indeed had crossed the creek. MOO

Absolutely, excellent points. There was a reason they focused searches on the creek...MP even said at one point he showed up in swim trunks ready to go into the creek and LE stopped him. They all were looking for...what? Items that were not found at the crime scene where they should have been? Evidence they expected to find such as weapon, or the phone (we only know that it was found in the general vicinity, not its exact location)? There was a reason he and LE thought the creek was an essential part of the crime.

 

[MistyWaters]

Do you mean as in Leazenby would thereby validate someones suspicion that their tip indeed WAS worthwhile and to please call it in because LE really does think the person is local and therefore will take their tip seriously?

Yes, I suppose he’d have been speaking to any listener including those who were local and his intention was to emphasis LE does not want anyone to disregard their knowledge or awareness of a possible suspect as insignificant.

Since the beginning of this case each time LE has been interviewed or scheduled a press conference they’ve focused on encouraging anybody who knows the suspect to call in a tip using various different approaches. I think his “I know that voice” was one example.

 

[Yemelyan]

I wanted to make a point about possible scene contamination by searchers, volunteer and otherwise. That's something discussed here often. We know hundreds of people participated in the search and even after the official search was called off, people remained searching throughout the night.

In the Scene of the Crime podcast, I learned a few new facts. The first one is that the majority of searchers that evening were not actually searching on the specific section of the trails where the girls had been dropped off. They spread out across farm fields nearby and also on sections of the trail that joined up with the sections that went toward downtown Delphi. The belief that night was that there was a strong possibility the girls had tried to walk home or to a friend/relative's house and may have become disoriented walking away from the trail system.

The second thing I learned was that each group of searchers was partnered with at least one individual who had the ability to communicate with LE via official channels. So there was somewhat professional oversight of each volunteer group.

And the third thing I learned was that the whole first day/night of searches, only two teams of searchers crossed the Monon High Bridge.

So my initial impression of hundreds and hundreds of people crossing the bridge and tramping through the woods was incorrect. Though the possibility of scene contamination is always a concern, far fewer people were in close proximity to the crime scene than I previously thought.

 

[Justice101]

I wanted to make a point about possible scene contamination by searchers, volunteer and otherwise. That's something discussed here often. We know hundreds of people participated in the search and even after the official search was called off, people remained searching throughout the night.

In the Scene of the Crime podcast, I learned a few new facts. The first one is that the majority of searchers that evening were not actually searching on the specific section of the trails where the girls had been dropped off. They spread out across farm fields nearby and also on sections of the trail that joined up with the sections that went toward downtown Delphi. The belief that night was that there was a strong possibility the girls had tried to walk home or to a friend/relative's house and may have become disoriented walking away from the trail system.

The second thing I learned was that each group of searchers was partnered with at least one individual who had the ability to communicate with LE via official channels. So there was somewhat professional oversight of each volunteer group.

And the third thing I learned was that the whole first day/night of searches, only two teams of searchers crossed the Monon High Bridge.

So my initial impression of hundreds and hundreds of people crossing the bridge and tramping through the woods was incorrect. Though the possibility of scene contamination is always a concern, far fewer people were in close proximity to the crime scene than I previously thought.

My thoughts were the searchers probably concentrated on the trails and the river DOWNSTREAM since one would think they could have fallen off the bridge and/or were swept downstream.

Where the girls were actually found would have been very difficult for searchers initially searching the area to get to from the north side of the bridge and they likely maybe just did a cursory search barely into the woods there. Most teams probably worked their way out from a short radius from where the girls were dropped off. The bodies were found over half a mile UPSTREAM from that point where the bridge meets the land on the northside.

 

[JnRyan]

I wanted to make a point about possible scene contamination by searchers, volunteer and otherwise. That's something discussed here often. We know hundreds of people participated in the search and even after the official search was called off, people remained searching throughout the night.

In the Scene of the Crime podcast, I learned a few new facts. The first one is that the majority of searchers that evening were not actually searching on the specific section of the trails where the girls had been dropped off. They spread out across farm fields nearby and also on sections of the trail that joined up with the sections that went toward downtown Delphi. The belief that night was that there was a strong possibility the girls had tried to walk home or to a friend/relative's house and may have become disoriented walking away from the trail system.

The second thing I learned was that each group of searchers was partnered with at least one individual who had the ability to communicate with LE via official channels. So there was somewhat professional oversight of each volunteer group.

And the third thing I learned was that the whole first day/night of searches, only two teams of searchers crossed the Monon High Bridge.

So my initial impression of hundreds and hundreds of people crossing the bridge and tramping through the woods was incorrect. Though the possibility of scene contamination is always a concern, far fewer people were in close proximity to the crime scene than I previously thought.

Per Ron Logan's interview with CNN he was asked at 6:30 PM for permission to search his property for 2 missing girls.
CNN.com - Transcripts
We don't what areas of his property they searched or how many searched his property, but there was apparently a search on the 13 Feb on Ron Logan's property. Was there any contamination of the area around the crime scene? We don't know, but we do know searchers were on his property prior to recovery of the bodies.

 

[Yemelyan]

Per Ron Logan's interview with CNN he was asked at 6:30 PM for permission to search his property for 2 missing girls.
CNN.com - Transcripts
We don't what areas of his property they searched or how many searched his property, but there was apparently a search on the 13 Feb on Ron Logan's property. Was there any contamination of the area around the crime scene? We don't know, but we do know searchers were on his property prior to recovery of the bodies.

I wasn't asserting no searchers were on his property or near the crime scene. My point was that we have heard estimates that hundreds up to even one thousand people participated in the search that night (I think Sgt. Riley guessed one thousand). If you imagined all of them combing the woods on RL's property, and all over the path to the High Bridge for example - according to the podcast, it was not THAT many because the searchers were spread out into nearby farm fields, etc. I'm certainly not saying there was no risk of scene contamination, just that it's overblown how many people might have contributed.

Also when you hear volunteer searching you think of people who have no sense of what would be prudent behavior should they find evidence. Each team was supposedly with a member of LE or fire, which is slightly better than nothing/no experience IMO.

Edit to add: this is not to say that I fault anyone for not finding them at night in the darkness on that particular piece of RL"s land. I think that would have been very difficult regardless of how many were searching..

 

[bradfordsleuth]

Per Ron Logan's interview with CNN he was asked at 6:30 PM for permission to search his property for 2 missing girls.
CNN.com - Transcripts
We don't what areas of his property they searched or how many searched his property, but there was apparently a search on the 13 Feb on Ron Logan's property. Was there any contamination of the area around the crime scene? We don't know, but we do know searchers were on his property prior to recovery of the bodies.

Quoted bbm

I am glad you have brought this up!

I would love to know what areas were searched on RL's property on Feb 13th and who participated in that search?

Were the other properties nearby searched? If not, why was only RL's property searched?

Footprints, tossed cigarette butts, jacket threads or hair caught in branches, ATV tracks...so many human elements could have contaminated the surrounding area, thereby obliterating (or adding confusion) to any potential evidence left by the killer leaving the scene.

Oh...what I would give to see a re-enactment of where the various search parties went that night and the following day! So many of my questions could be answered.

JMO