Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #124

[bradfordsleuth]

At one time I thought maybe BG followed the girls across the bridge and then down the north side. This article shows why they did not. Also because there was crime scene tape only on the south end of the bridge.

LE knows the difference from the time of the BG photo to the audio. If it was a matter of minutes then they had to cross the creek as there wasn’t enough time to recross the bridge.

I also think they were searching the creek for more evidence because they had indeed crossed the creek. If there was evidence of clothing then they were pretty certain.

I don’t recall LE searching the north end of the bridge or the creek under it. That kind of clinched it in my mind that they indeed had crossed the creek. MOO

Quoted bbm

Great point! Just to add... I think these electronic timestamps on the video/audio are what very quickly prompted LE to state that the man on the bridge was a suspect.

Libby's shoe being found on the south side also would be a solid indicator as to where they crossed the creek to get to the north side.

JMO

 

[Yemelyan]

Quoted bbm

I am glad you have brought this up!

I would love to know what areas were searched on RL's property on Feb 13th and who participated in that search?

Were the other properties nearby searched? If not, why was only RL's property searched?

Footprints, tossed cigarette butts, jacket threads or hair caught in branches, ATV tracks...so many human elements could have contaminated the surrounding area, thereby obliterating (or adding confusion) to any potential evidence left by the killer leaving the scene.

Oh...what I would give to see a re-enactment of where the various search parties went that night and the following day! So many of my questions could be answered.

JMO

I know that one other property that was definitely searched that day/night while they were still missing was the Mears property.

 

[somequestions]

That LE has already talked to the killer? Yeah, that's one scenario I and some others on here have wondered about. They currently have between 50K and 60K in tips if I remember correctly. Granted, there will be a LOT of meaningless tips, but that amount of tips is easily 10-20 times what LE usually gets. For example, we have the case of Suzanne Morphew on here going into its 3rd month blowing up the threads here and LE has stated they have 600 tips. At this point in Abigail and Liberty's case, LE already had 15,000 tips.
Indiana teens' mysterious murders still unsolved 2 months later, leaving fear, frustration in Delphi
That's 25 times the number of tips the Morphew case has gotten with a sheriff's dept, FBI and CBI involved. And we're not talking about NYC or Los Angeles with Abigail and Liberty but a town of less than 5K in a county of less than 22K. I know we've been told to not concern ourselves with the volume because the FBI has a software called Pyramid that allows for management of tips. Even with 15K in tips that early management is going to be daunting with any software package. I would imagine that software is used on many other cases as well and the volume of tips is nowhere near what has been experienced here. The original task force had between 100 and 200 staff members with, in addition to Delphi PD, Carroll County SO, FBI and ISP, investigators temporarily on loan to the task force from LE agencies throughout the state. With that many investigators following up on tips communication between investigators is going to be more complex and when the loaned investigators go away the current group is left with the notes of these loaned LE personnel. That is not the same as the face-to-face meeting up with a person mentioned in a tip. And Pyramid is subject to the same rule that applies to all other software packages - Garbage In, Garbage Out - IOW, the product is only as good as what is entered into it.

I believe you are correct when you state that when this case is solved, it will be a case study for not just how LE solved it, but for what went astray as well. I believe it is very likely someone in LE spoke to the killer already and maybe in the first few months of the investigation.

I think the amount of tips in the case could be as much of a help as a hinderance. I do not doubt LE work very hard to try and solve this case, but their opinion about the case and the direction of their investigation matters in how they go about investigating the tips they receive.

The April 2019 press conference was filled with such self-confidence about their investigation that they were willing to point to a sketch and remark "this is the person responsible." So to describe what I mean by this case becoming a case study is the self-confidence in their investigation coming back at them later on, ironically by the one piece of evidence that might end up solving the case: Liberty German's phone video/audio. I think the press conferences and sketches will end up having no part in solving this case.

Until this case is solved it is all a moot point. We do not know what LE knows. So maybe when the case is solved then we will find out the whole story regarding the crime and the investigation.
But every day that passes makes it look more and more like the investigation is going in the wrong direction. It may not have been going in the right direction to begin with.

 

[Falling Down]

I wanted to make a point about possible scene contamination by searchers, volunteer and otherwise. That's something discussed here often. We know hundreds of people participated in the search and even after the official search was called off, people remained searching throughout the night.

In the Scene of the Crime podcast, I learned a few new facts. The first one is that the majority of searchers that evening were not actually searching on the specific section of the trails where the girls had been dropped off. They spread out across farm fields nearby and also on sections of the trail that joined up with the sections that went toward downtown Delphi. The belief that night was that there was a strong possibility the girls had tried to walk home or to a friend/relative's house and may have become disoriented walking away from the trail system.

The second thing I learned was that each group of searchers was partnered with at least one individual who had the ability to communicate with LE via official channels. So there was somewhat professional oversight of each volunteer group.

And the third thing I learned was that the whole first day/night of searches, only two teams of searchers crossed the Monon High Bridge.

So my initial impression of hundreds and hundreds of people crossing the bridge and tramping through the woods was incorrect. Though the possibility of scene contamination is always a concern, far fewer people were in close proximity to the crime scene than I previously thought.

This entire time since the murders I've pictured very few people made it to RL's property to search, and it sounds like they were all young people. This was not a very organized search, especially at 6:30 it would have just started. I don't even know how these folks were tipped off about the girls being missing.

Were they at the fire station? I don't even know when the large gathering at the fire station got rolling. I do know that there was mention of things starting to organize by 8PM.

It was a kind of haphazard search that evening. Called off for obvious safety reasons by 10PM or thereabouts.

I'm picturing maybe 6 people at RL's, and I doubt they searched much of his 40 acres. They probably looked around for a bit, and besides, everyone searching would have been under the impression the
girls were alive, and would have been yelling their names. No response in the darkness? Time to move on...

JMO

 

[Falling Down]

My thoughts were the searchers probably concentrated on the trails and the river DOWNSTREAM since one would think they could have fallen off the bridge and/or were swept downstream.

Where the girls were actually found would have been very difficult for searchers initially searching the area to get to from the north side of the bridge and they likely maybe just did a cursory search barely into the woods there. Most teams probably worked their way out from a short radius from where the girls were dropped off. The bodies were found over half a mile UPSTREAM from that point where the bridge meets the land on the northside.

Good post.

That's where they searched, around the bridge and downstream towards Delphi. Hardly at all upstream.

The CS is just under 3/8 of a mile upstream from the NW end of the bridge, roughly 650 feet from the SE end. For reference for anyone who'd like to know. That's a tricky walk through the woods even with no snow and ice on the ground, and even without the dense vegetation one would encounter there. BG got out that way, though, so we know it was passable along one or two of the private trails between the main trail to the bridge and the CS. Yet BG got out of there during daylight hours. Slow going in total darkness in that gorge.

It's all private properties around there, the girls pretty much knew this, and that's evidenced by what's been shared about the audio, the comment about the end of the bridge made by one of the girls.

I picture the search focusing around the bridge area and west towards town. The claims of hundreds or a thousand or more searches makes me cringe, some. They were searching in Delphi and over into Deer Creek Township, knocking on doors and ringing door bells. AL lived on C.R. 625, so I picture people searching along there SW of and a ways away from the bridge area. The number of searchers around the bridge area itself may have numbered in the low hundreds, if that.

JMO

 

[Falling Down]

I wasn't asserting no searchers were on his property or near the crime scene. My point was that we have heard estimates that hundreds up to even one thousand people participated in the search that night (I think Sgt. Riley guessed one thousand). If you imagined all of them combing the woods on RL's property, and all over the path to the High Bridge for example - according to the podcast, it was not THAT many because the searchers were spread out into nearby farm fields, etc. I'm certainly not saying there was no risk of scene contamination, just that it's overblown how many people might have contributed.

Also when you hear volunteer searching you think of people who have no sense of what would be prudent behavior should they find evidence. Each team was supposedly with a member of LE or fire, which is slightly better than nothing/no experience IMO.

Edit to add: this is not to say that I fault anyone for not finding them at night in the darkness on that particular piece of RL"s land. I think that would have been very difficult regardless of how many were searching..

I agree, and just posted a reply to another post about this issue or these issues.

They were found the next day just under 3/8 of a mile away from the NW end of the bridge, roughly 650 feet from the SE end of the bridge.

The two SnapChat images uploaded by Libby had been passed around to searchers some time that evening, via texts. A news cast out of Indy at 10PM indicated such, I saw it early on in this case. It is no longer available online that I'm aware of. The "7 h ago" on both images indicates screen shots of both taken at approximately 9PM or so on someone's phone, then the images were texted to searchers.

A young man interviewed at the fire house by the reporter showed the image of Abby on his phone to that reporter, and indicated he'd gotten the SC images texted to him around 9:30. Which makes sense to me. It would have taken a while for the images to be shared by people who knew the girls, and would have taken a little while longer for people to have the presence of mind to share the images with the searchers via text and in person. That's where the "7 h ago" came from, and those images with that stamp were probably shared to that reporter via text, and the next day went around the world after the girls were found.

So what is the significance of the above?

1. Searchers knew by mid-evening that the girls had made it to the bridge. So they'd walked the main trail to the bridge, and got on the bridge. This is what was "known" about their whereabouts after they'd been dropped off.

2. We don't know if the SC images had been shared by 6:30. I'm picturing people knowing about the images, thus knowing the girls made it to the bridge, but how many people, and are there other screen shots which were made earlier than roughly 9PM or so? The search was suspended shortly after the young searcher was interviewed.

So at 6:30 or so (going off of RL's recollection) people are searching the general area around the gorge, recollections of which has been backed up by family members and some searchers. So both sides of the gorge are being searched. Yet all they know is the girls made it to the bridge.

There's no direct way to get from the bridge area to Delphi. Again, this would be confusing to searchers, I think. Confusing because after scouring the area around the bridge and west of there, the searchers would have probably wondered where they could have walked to. The only area they could have walked to with ease from the SE end of the bridge to get to anywhere away from the bridge on foot would have been the driveway that becomes C.R. 625.

As a searcher, even if I knew the gorge well along there or had a pretty good knowledge of its layout, I'd be confused. Where did they go? "Must be they went to someone's house or are walking somewhere", is what I would have probably thought by 8 or 9PM.

Had they turned around, walked back up the trail, then made it to C.R. 300 and walked somewhere, someone would have seen them, in fact they potentially could have crossed paths with a trail user or users, someone walking their dog, someone driving by, etc. They didn't, and all people knew by the 10 and 11PM news casts out of Indy that night was they had gone missing.

JMO

 

[Yemelyan]

I agree, and just posted a reply to another post about this issue or these issues.

They were found the next day just under 3/8 of a mile away from the NW end of the bridge, roughly 650 feet from the SE end of the bridge.

The two SnapChat images uploaded by Libby had been passed around to searchers some time that evening, via texts. A news cast out of Indy at 10PM indicated such, I saw it early on in this case. It is no longer available online that I'm aware of. The "7 h ago" on both images indicates screen shots of both taken at approximately 9PM or so on someone's phone, then the images were texted to searchers.

A young man interviewed at the fire house by the reporter showed the image of Abby on his phone to that reporter, and indicated he'd gotten the SC images texted to him around 9:30. Which makes sense to me. It would have taken a while for the images to be shared by people who knew the girls, and would have taken a little while longer for people to have the presence of mind to share the images with the searchers via text and in person. That's where the "7 h ago" came from, and those images with that stamp were probably shared to that reporter via text, and the next day went around the world after the girls were found.

So what is the significance of the above?

1. Searchers knew by mid-evening that the girls had made it to the bridge. So they'd walked the main trail to the bridge, and got on the bridge. This is what was "known" about their whereabouts after they'd been dropped off.

2. We don't know if the SC images had been shared by 6:30. I'm picturing people knowing about the images, thus knowing the girls made it to the bridge, but how many people, and are there other screen shots which were made earlier than roughly 9PM or so? The search was suspended shortly after the young searcher was interviewed.

So at 6:30 or so (going off of RL's recollection) people are searching the general area around the gorge, recollections of which has been backed up by family members and some searchers. So both sides of the gorge are being searched. Yet all they know is the girls made it to the bridge.

There's no direct way to get from the bridge area to Delphi. Again, this would be confusing to searchers, I think. Confusing because after scouring the area around the bridge and west of there, the searchers would have probably wondered where they could have walked to. The only area they could have walked to with ease from the SE end of the bridge to get to anywhere away from the bridge on foot would have been the driveway that becomes C.R. 625.

As a searcher, even if I knew the gorge well along there or had a pretty good knowledge of its layout, I'd be confused. Where did they go? "Must be they went to someone's house or are walking somewhere", is what I would have probably thought by 8 or 9PM.

Had they turned around, walked back up the trail, then made it to C.R. 300 and walked somewhere, someone would have seen them, in fact they potentially could have crossed paths with a trail user or users, someone walking their dog, someone driving by, etc. They didn't, and all people knew by the 10 and 11PM news casts out of Indy that night was they had gone missing.

JMO

Agreed, and with regard to the part above that I bolded, family members said something very similar in their own words. They hoped that the girls had decided to walk somewhere else and gotten lost/turned around. AW said, "neither of them were known for their sense of direction." It was the best situation they could have hoped for at that time.

 

[sunshineray]

I think the amount of tips in the case could be as much of a help as a hinderance. I do not doubt LE work very hard to try and solve this case, but their opinion about the case and the direction of their investigation matters in how they go about investigating the tips they receive.

The April 2019 press conference was filled with such self-confidence about their investigation that they were willing to point to a sketch and remark "this is the person responsible." So to describe what I mean by this case becoming a case study is the self-confidence in their investigation coming back at them later on, ironically by the one piece of evidence that might end up solving the case: Liberty German's phone video/audio. I think the press conferences and sketches will end up having no part in solving this case.

Until this case is solved it is all a moot point. We do not know what LE knows. So maybe when the case is solved then we will find out the whole story regarding the crime and the investigation.
But every day that passes makes it look more and more like the investigation is going in the wrong direction. It may not have been going in the right direction to begin with.

I think the investigation was going in the wrong direction but now is more focused. I don't necessarily think the lack of official reporting to the public is a bad sign. I think it could mean they have someone in their sights and have to make a case that will stick. AJMO

 

[Charlot123]

Some posters mentioned Libby being a heavy girl and hence, they alluded, she had to cross the creek herself.

Is that possible that with the water being rather high, BG could incapacitate her, temporarily or permanently, and then pull her body across the creek? It is easier to pull on the water. This could explain later searches in the creek, if the searchers later assumed that some items fell out of Libby’s, or BG’s, pockets. I am also thinking that if Libby, as MP said, gave BG hard time, she could be fighting on the S side of the creek, bloodying BG, and he needed to get in the water to wash off own, and her, blood.

 

[stattlich1]

Contamination of the crime scene. MOO.

One would have to define the boundaries of the CS for me, however, the immediate area where the girls were found was most likely not contaminated by any searchers, other than possibly those that found the girls, and that would likely be minimal.

However, the killer (or someone else) could have had access to the CS for the entire night, but even that, to me, is unlikely as it would be difficult to operate in that wooded area in darkness.

I've always thought it was a very quick event, down that hill, through some wooded area, crossing the creek (possibly making a run for it, possibly not), then in to the CS area. For me, the time for that to occur could have been as little as 10 or 20 minutes.

 

[stattlich1]

Killers escape route. MOO

Over the years I've seen mention of the murderer having exited the crime scene in some way via the MHB trail. I guess either back from whence he came, (across the bridge again?), or some how through the woods, back across the creek, and up on to the trail?

I'd entertain clarification from those who know more than me about this scenario

I always thought, and it's speculation on my part, but common sense tells me escape would have been up and out through the cemetery, or close to it.

I am convinced that the remoteness of the CS, the minimal number of people around, the lack of traffic on the surrounding country roads, all favored the killer. This leads me to think, how did he get there? And how did he leave?

Did he drive his own car? That car that's been mentioned by LE seen parked in that lot? Or was he parked in the rear of the cemetery? Or did someone drop him off and/or pick him up?

I don't know, for me, a lot of these questions in my head, along with things I've heard LE say, lead to the possible 'accomplice' theory.

WAY too many questions, WAY too little in the way of truthful answers.

 

[somequestions]

I think the investigation was going in the wrong direction but now is more focused. I don't necessarily think the lack of official reporting to the public is a bad sign. I think it could mean they have someone in their sights and have to make a case that will stick. AJMO

I think it all depends on your perspective. In many cases, silence tends to be an indication of the investigation progressing. I have actually read that new conferences are usually pleas for information from the public. So you could be correct.

However, I have a different perspective. I think the silence in this case is an indication that time has proved the direction of the investigation wrong. No press conferences are more of an indication in this case that LE has nothing and does not want to answer the questions that will be posed to them about their sketches and the investigation. So they wait, either to find the tip that might help them solve the case or hope enough time passes that it will eventually come in to their office. Because of the volume of tips they are given time. But eventually time is probably what is going to cause people to question whether they really do have any idea about who murdered Abigail Williams and Liberty German. By that time, I think the discussion will probably have gotten a lot quieter too.

 

[SMK777]

But every day that passes makes it look more and more like the investigation is going in the wrong direction. It may not have been going in the right direction to begin with.

Agreed.

I was looking back through older threads from 15 months ago, because I was trying to locate a point I’d read there some time ago. Shocked to see many comments from early 2019 to the effect, I think LE is closing in on him or I believe we’ll hear of an arrest in the very near future.

Here we are a year and a half later, and it really feels like a cold case. 3 1/2 years is disturbing. Even Abby’s mom has said she fears that 10 years from now it will remain unsolved. Very disheartening.

 

[Falling Down]

Contamination of the crime scene. MOO.

One would have to define the boundaries of the CS for me, however, the immediate area where the girls were found was most likely not contaminated by any searchers, other than possibly those that found the girls, and that would likely be minimal.

Judging by the MSM videos from early on, where RL was interviewed near the CS, the general area where they were standing looked to be easy to walk in that time of year. After all, the abandoned gravel pit has a driveway type of path to it from where RL's property meets the SE corner of the cemetery. So it's easy to get down there from RL's property.

That said, I don't picture people stomping around there in the darkness much, that night. They may have made it to within 50-100 feet of the bodies, but without bright floodlight type lights it would have been difficult to see between, say, the gravel pit and the creek. Like details and whatnot.

However, the killer (or someone else) could have had access to the CS for the entire night, but even that, to me, is unlikely as it would be difficult to operate in that wooded area in darkness.

I've always thought it was a very quick event, down that hill, through some wooded area, crossing the creek (possibly making a run for it, possibly not), then in to the CS area. For me, the time for that to occur could have been as little as 10 or 20 minutes.

That and there would be no reason to hang around. His goal was to kill right there and leave the bodies there. To me, that's part of the thrill he was seeking, one of the "look at what I did!" parts of the fantasy.

JMO

 

[MizStery]

At the 14:06 point of the video linked above the caller asks Becky Patti about an eyewitness of BG at 3:15 leaving. Becky Patti confirms that LE had told her there was an eye witness who saw BG leaving. But Becky is unsure about the 3:15 time frame the caller is referring to? Becky make’s it plain that the LE said nothing about 3:15.Grey Hughes then hijacks (my opinion)the dialogue and rehashs everything. I wish Grey would have given Becky a chance to have been given the final word to the caller.Both Grey and Becky indicate there are some questions that will be left unanswered to protect the investigation.

After all, the abandoned gravel pit has a driveway type of path to it from where RL's property meets the SE corner of the cemetery. So it's easy to get down there from RL's property.

Falling down the sighting of BG that the LE shared with Becky Patti (in my link above) leaving has haunted me for a year.

I can’t let go of the theory that this was how BG exited the CS.Or perhaps a slightly different route that still exited from the cemetery.

I would like someone to critique my post. Please!Any criticism of my theory would be considered constructive and helpful.

My Opinion

 

[mimimarge]

JMO, I don't think this case is anywhere close to a dead end. I think when they catch this person we will all be shocked at how much they already had on him.

I'd bet you are right!

"Somebody may have already interviewed him," said Riley. "I'm not going to say they have or have not, but there's a possibility that has happened. The person apparently gave the investigating officers the information they were looking for. We have to try to go back and check on the information that we have received."

ISP on Delphi killer: 'Somebody may have already interviewed him'

 

[mimimarge]

Per Ron Logan's interview with CNN he was asked at 6:30 PM for permission to search his property for 2 missing girls.
CNN.com - Transcripts
We don't what areas of his property they searched or how many searched his property, but there was apparently a search on the 13 Feb on Ron Logan's property. Was there any contamination of the area around the crime scene? We don't know, but we do know searchers were on his property prior to recovery of the bodies.

Interesting

 

[MistyWaters]

I'd bet you are right!

"Somebody may have already interviewed him," said Riley. "I'm not going to say they have or have not, but there's a possibility that has happened. The person apparently gave the investigating officers the information they were looking for. We have to try to go back and check on the information that we have received."

ISP on Delphi killer: 'Somebody may have already interviewed him'

Considering this quote was from over a year ago, I sure hope investigators have had enough time to go back and check on the information they’ve received!

 

[somequestions]

Agreed.

I was looking back through older threads from 15 months ago, because I was trying to locate a point I’d read there some time ago. Shocked to see many comments from early 2019 to the effect, I think LE is closing in on him or I believe we’ll hear of an arrest in the very near future.

Here we are a year and a half later, and it really feels like a cold case. 3 1/2 years is disturbing. Even Abby’s mom has said she fears that 10 years from now it will remain unsolved. Very disheartening.

After the April 2019 press conference I thought they were closing in on the killer too. But then I looked at Liberty German's phone video and compared it to the sketch and they look nothing alike to me. I even thought maybe the second sketch was a ruse that LE was putting out there so the real killer would relax and think they were not on to him. But then I thought why would LE do that because then they would get thousands of useless tips?

Think of all the people on youtube etc that are doing comparisons based off that second sketch. Let's assume for a moment that the real killer ends up being an older guy who looks nothing like that sketch. I think all these people are going to be thinking, "What the heck was that second sketch!?, Where did that come from?!", "No wonder it took so long to find him".

A sketch is not a photograph, but people are still going to use it as a general basis for the description of this man on the bridge. As for tips in this case garbage in still equals garbage out, especially if it is based on faulty information. I think I pose a question that is hard to consider: What if the police are wrong about the eyewitness description that makes up the second sketch and everyone, including them, is looking for the wrong person?

 

[SMK777]

What if the police are wrong about the eyewitness description that makes up the second sketch and everyone, including them, is looking for the wrong person?

I think that’s highly possible!