Detail From Kolar's Book

[Swirlz]

page 339:

"There had been another discrepancy in one of Patsy Ramsey's law enforcement interviews that caught my attention. Investigators had noted that the wrapping paper on a pair of Christmas presents observed in the Wine Cellar at the time of the discovery of JonBenet's body had been torn. She told the detectives that she couldn't remember what was contained in the presents, and hence the need to tear back part of the paper."

"I learned over the course of my inquiry that is was Burke who had actually been responsible for tearing back the paper of the presents while playing in the basement on Christmas Day, and I wondered why Patsy would claim responsibility for doing this."

Question: Does anyone have an opinion on how Kolar might have come across the info that it was Burke who tore the paper and what explanation there could be for the source of this factoid being omitted from his book?

 

[UKGuy]

page 339:

"There had been another discrepancy in one of Patsy Ramsey's law enforcement interviews that caught my attention. Investigators had noted that the wrapping paper on a pair of Christmas presents observed in the Wine Cellar at the time of the discovery of JonBenet's body had been torn. She told the detectives that she couldn't remember what was contained in the presents, and hence the need to tear back part of the paper."

"I learned over the course of my inquiry that is was Burke who had actually been responsible for tearing back the paper of the presents while playing in the basement on Christmas Day, and I wondered why Patsy would claim responsibility for doing this."

Question: Does anyone have an opinion on how Kolar might have come across the info that it was Burke who tore the paper and what explanation there could be for the source of this factoid being omitted from his book?

Swirlz,
Probably the same place he found the information related to the fecally stained pajama bottoms left on JonBenet's bedroom floor?


Foreign Faction, Who Really Kidnapped JonBenet, James Kolar, pages 370 - 371

There were other police reports in the files that documented what I thought could be viewed as related behavior. CSIs had written about finding a pair of pajama bottoms in JonBenét’s bedroom that contained fecal material. They were too big for her and were thought to belong to Burke.

Kolar can only have sourced this information from police reports or by interview of an actual investigator or psychologist, etc other than directly from Burke Ramsey's mouth?

Yet what Kolar says is consistent with the evidence and explains why both John and Patsy had different explanations for the Partially Opened Gifts, long before they became an item of public interest.

The tangential point Kolar is likely making is the Size-12's because if we know for a fact that Burke opened those gifts on Christmas Day, then we know he probably knew where to find another Wednesday pair of Bloomingdale's underwear?

.

 

[Logic101]

page 339:

"There had been another discrepancy in one of Patsy Ramsey's law enforcement interviews that caught my attention. Investigators had noted that the wrapping paper on a pair of Christmas presents observed in the Wine Cellar at the time of the discovery of JonBenet's body had been torn. She told the detectives that she couldn't remember what was contained in the presents, and hence the need to tear back part of the paper."

"I learned over the course of my inquiry that is was Burke who had actually been responsible for tearing back the paper of the presents while playing in the basement on Christmas Day, and I wondered why Patsy would claim responsibility for doing this."

Question: Does anyone have an opinion on how Kolar might have come across the info that it was Burke who tore the paper and what explanation there could be for the source of this factoid being omitted from his book?

Too much of Kolar’s book is based on unsubstantiated information, in my opinion.

For 20 years I had been firmly entrenched in BDI but after reading his book, I did a 360 degree turnaround on this case.

 

[Cottonstar]

page 339:

"There had been another discrepancy in one of Patsy Ramsey's law enforcement interviews that caught my attention. Investigators had noted that the wrapping paper on a pair of Christmas presents observed in the Wine Cellar at the time of the discovery of JonBenet's body had been torn. She told the detectives that she couldn't remember what was contained in the presents, and hence the need to tear back part of the paper."

"I learned over the course of my inquiry that is was Burke who had actually been responsible for tearing back the paper of the presents while playing in the basement on Christmas Day, and I wondered why Patsy would claim responsibility for doing this."

Question: Does anyone have an opinion on how Kolar might have come across the info that it was Burke who tore the paper and what explanation there could be for the source of this factoid being omitted from his book?

It’s either

page 339:

"There had been another discrepancy in one of Patsy Ramsey's law enforcement interviews that caught my attention. Investigators had noted that the wrapping paper on a pair of Christmas presents observed in the Wine Cellar at the time of the discovery of JonBenet's body had been torn. She told the detectives that she couldn't remember what was contained in the presents, and hence the need to tear back part of the paper."

"I learned over the course of my inquiry that is was Burke who had actually been responsible for tearing back the paper of the presents while playing in the basement on Christmas Day, and I wondered why Patsy would claim responsibility for doing this."

Question: Does anyone have an opinion on how Kolar might have come across the info that it was Burke who tore the paper and what explanation there could be for the source of this factoid being omitted from his book?

The source is from one of Burke’s interviews with police, or most likely from Burke’s GJ testimony.

 

[proust20]

It is realistic to assume that all of the evidence which the police possess has not been released to the public, as technically this is still an open investigation.

 

[icedtea4me]

Foreign Faction, Who Really Kidnapped JonBenet, James Kolar, pages 370 - 371

They were too big for her and thought to belong to Burke.

1. Pajama pants too big for JonBenet =/= pajama pants that were the correct size for Burke.
2. The pajama pants should've been collected into evidence and a dna test run on the fecal stain.

 

[UKGuy]

They were too big for her and thought to belong to Burke.

1. Pajama pants too big for JonBenet =/= pajama pants that were the correct size for Burke.
2. The pajama pants should've been collected into evidence and a dna test run on the fecal stain.

icedtea4me,
Yes, I agree sloppy forensics here, but why?

I reckon they all had a good idea who did it and either because they knew they were correct or they were told what to collect as evidence?

Who does a homicide crime-scene and leaves obvious evidence unbagged, then later comments, Oh, it looks like it belonged to X?

 

[UKGuy]

It is realistic to assume that all of the evidence which the police possess has not been released to the public, as technically this is still an open investigation.

proust20,
Sure, its on record that there is a mountain of unprocessed forensic evidence sitting in an evidence cage in some depository somewhere in Colorado State.

.

 

[icedtea4me]

icedtea4me,
Yes, I agree sloppy forensics here, but why? <snip>

I have no idea why. All I do know is that there were quite a few items that ought to have been collected and the substance on those items tested, like the pajama pants for instance. The result could have been:

a. The fecal stain came from JonBenet; therefore, she had been wearing the pants, which she'd have to pull up higher on her waist.
or
b. The fecal stain came from Burke; therefore, why were his pajama pants in JonBenet's room?

 

[UKGuy]

I have no idea why. All I do know is that there were quite a few items that ought to have been collected and the substance on those items tested, like the pajama pants for instance. The result could have been:

a. The fecal stain came from JonBenet; therefore, she had been wearing the pants, which she'd have to pull up higher on her waist.
or
b. The fecal stain came from Burke; therefore, why were his pajama pants in JonBenet's room?

icedtea4me,
OK. So if it was probably a. then it would have been mentioned in the passing, alike her fecally soiled underwear in her bathroom, questions were asked but apparently they were not a big deal or worth pursuing.

So b. wins out here in terms of explanatory power.

Another way to think about it is to consider that both JonBenet's and Burke's pajama bottoms have gone missing from the night before, e.g. not in the usual storage location.

Nobody, including Kolar is saying if they were the pair Burke wore the night before or even what their color was, no pictures issued of Burke wearing his bottoms, unlike JonBenet.

So the unstated scenario is this: both JonBenet were sharing a bedroom together in which they had both removed their pajama bottoms.

Burke's pajama bottoms were left behind in the chaos and JonBenet's went with her down to the basement, to be later removed from the house along with the remaining pairs of size-12 Bloomingdale underwear, and the likely size-6, Wednesday, Bloomingdale underwear.

IMO the latter scenario is not one either John or Patsy would select in staging JonBenet as they would both recognize that Bloomingdale's DOW underwear is not critical, in other words any old pair of size-6 underwear would do just fine!

Of course the salient point here and one actually mentioned by Kolar in his book in a different context: If Burke soiled his pajama bottoms the same night that JonBenet was assaulted, was this as a result of stress or pleasure. If the latter was it postmortem or before?

Another explanation for Burke's pajama bottoms is that he soiled them on Christmas Eve and left them lying on JonBenet's bedroom floor.

This seems quite a stretch, maybe JonBenet did not care about soiled clothing, so left them in place?

.

 

[Rain on my Parade]

IMO the latter scenario is not one either John or Patsy would select in staging JonBenet as they would both recognize that Bloomingdale's DOW underwear is not critical, in other words any old pair of size-6 underwear would do just fine!

UKGuy,
Except given PR had actually wrapped Jennie’s bloomies and they were amongst the gifts still in the basement she was wrapping on Christmas Day. Both PR and BR were in the basement that day. Perhaps BR was aware of the package and he saw his mom wrapping them. Of coarse whomever opened them would have had to use scissors or a knife; as the zipper was locked with a zip tie. Selecting the day of Wednesday could be coincidental, perhaps not. BR may not have been aware the girls underwear was for Jennie and twice JB size. I think the underwear was in a location of convenience for staging and that is why they were used, instead of going upstairs for a size 6.

 

[UKGuy]

UKGuy,
Except given PR had actually wrapped Jennie’s bloomies and they were amongst the gifts still in the basement she was wrapping on Christmas Day. Both PR and BR were in the basement that day. Perhaps BR was aware of the package and he saw his mom wrapping them. Of coarse whomever opened them would have had to use scissors or a knife; as the zipper was locked with a zip tie. Selecting the day of Wednesday could be coincidental, perhaps not. BR may not have been aware the girls underwear was for Jennie and twice JB size. I think the underwear was in a location of convenience for staging and that is why they were used, instead of going upstairs for a size 6.

Rain on my Parade,
Yes and no.

Yes, if you accept the Ramsey Version of Events since this is a plausible account.

No, if you do not accept the Ramsey Version of Events, since everything is then up in air.

I do not accept the Ramsey Version of Events since both John, Patsy and possibly Burke all have a different story to tell, and they cannot all be correct.

You are a parent you are staging your daughter's death, so why would you dress her in another persons underwear?

There can be only two credible answers, i.e. Any Pair Will Do or They Must Be a Wednesday Pair, and JonBenet was already wearing the only other Wednesday pair of Bloomingdale's, i.e the stager considered the Day Of The Week more important than the size?

Whereas the parents would recognize the right size is more important than the Day Of The Week feature?

Hey folks we are staging a homicide not dressing for a social event!

If you think the Day Of The Week is the important feature then this aspect only matters inside the Ramsey family and nowhere else!

If you think Any Pair Will Do then this adequately explains the size-12's, even if they were deliberately selected simply to confuse.

Yet we know Patsy offered up a story about how the size-12's arrived in JonBenet's bedroom, meaning the size-12's are a red flag, and the parents know this.

I think the underwear was in a location of convenience for staging and that is why they were used, instead of going upstairs for a size 6.

How do we know the size-12's were originally downstairs? Remember none were found anywhere in the house postmortem, except for the pair JonBenet was wearing.

The size-12's story might simply be a fabrication, they may never have been one of the Partially Opened Gifts, after all if there is none to be found, how can you demonstrate they were ever in that location?

Because why would JonBenet's killer run downstairs for oversized underwear when there is a drawer full of underwear in her bathroom?

.

 

[icedtea4me]

Rain on my Parade,
Yes and no.

Yes, if you accept the Ramsey Version of Events since this is a plausible account.

No, if you do not accept the Ramsey Version of Events, since everything is then up in air.

I do not accept the Ramsey Version of Events since both John, Patsy and possibly Burke all have a different story to tell, and they cannot all be correct.

You are a parent you are staging your daughter's death, so why would you dress her in another persons underwear?

There can be only two credible answers, i.e. Any Pair Will Do or They Must Be a Wednesday Pair, and JonBenet was already wearing the only other Wednesday pair of Bloomingdale's, i.e the stager considered the Day Of The Week more important than the size?

Whereas the parents would recognize the right size is more important than the Day Of The Week feature?

Hey folks we are staging a homicide not dressing for a social event!

If you think the Day Of The Week is the important feature then this aspect only matters inside the Ramsey family and nowhere else!

If you think Any Pair Will Do then this adequately explains the size-12's, even if they were deliberately selected simply to confuse.

Yet we know Patsy offered up a story about how the size-12's arrived in JonBenet's bedroom, meaning the size-12's are a red flag, and the parents know this.


How do we know the size-12's were originally downstairs? Remember none were found anywhere in the house postmortem, except for the pair JonBenet was wearing.

The size-12's story might simply be a fabrication, they may never have been one of the Partially Opened Gifts, after all if there is none to be found, how can you demonstrate they were ever in that location?

Because why would JonBenet's killer run downstairs for oversized underwear when there is a drawer full of underwear in her bathroom?

.

Why would a complete stranger even bother redressing her?

 

[UKGuy]

Why would a complete stranger even bother redressing her?

icedtea4me,
Obviously no stranger needs to redress her as her death advertises her condition, not her clothing.


Atlanta 2000, Patsy-Interview, Excerpt
Investigator Mr. Morrissey asks Patsy where did the size-12's come from

1 Q. The underwear that she was
2 wearing, that is Bloomi's panties, do you
3 know where they come from as far as what
4 store?
5 A. Bloomingdales in New York.
6 Q. Who purchased those?
7 A. I did.
8 Q. Do you recall when you purchased
9 them?
10 A. It was, I think, November of '96.

Atlanta 2000, Patsy-Interview, Excerpt

15 THE WITNESS: They were just in
16 her panty drawer, so I don't, you know, I
17 don't pay attention. I mean, I just put all
18 of her clean panties in a drawer and she can
19 help herself to whatever is in there.
20 MS. HARMER: I guess I am not
21 clear on, you bought the panties to give to
22 Jenny.
23 THE WITNESS: Right.
24 MS. HARMER: And they ended up in
25 JonBenet's bathroom?
1 A. Right.

Right Patsy, just like magic!


Atlanta 2000, Patsy-Interview, Excerpt
Investigator Mr. Kane tells Patsy what they actually found in her drawer

11 Q. And I will just state a fact
12 here. I mean, there were 15 pair of panties
13 taken out of, by the police, out of
14 JonBenet's panty drawer in her bathroom. Is
15 that where she kept -
16 A. Uh-huh (affirmative).
17 Q. -- where you were describing that
18 they were just put in that drawer?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Okay. And every one of those was
21 either a size four or a size six. Okay?

i.e. NO SIZE-12's!

Atlanta 2000, Patsy-Interview, Excerpt

6 Q. (By Mr. Morrissey) And you
7 understand the reason we are asking this, we
8 want to make sure that this intruder did not
9 bring these panties with him, this was
10 something --
11 A. Right.
12 Q. - that was in the house.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And we are clear that, as far as
15 you know, that is something that was in this
16 house?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. -- that belonged to your daughter,
19 these panties?
20 A. Correct.

All discerning JonBenet sleuths will note that Patsy offers no evidence that the size-12's belonged to her daughter, since as Mr. Kane tells Patsy no size-12's were found in the house, did the Intruder remove the remaining clean pairs as a trophy?

So where did the remaining clean size-12's, as well as the pair of size-6 underwear worn by JonBenet to the White's Party go?

When John was asked about the size-12's, he says

20 JOHN RAMSEY: Well Patsy had gotten a bunch
21 of gifts at FAO Schwartz up in New York in early
22 December, some of which were for them were for
23 Burke's birthday, which was in January. She didn't
24 know they were in the closet exactly,

Get that Patsy never knew where the size-12's were, yet she claims to have put them in JonBenet's underwear drawer?

And Burke Ramsey is alleged to have said:
James Kolar, Foreign Faction, Excerpt

I learned, over the course of my inquiry, that it was Burke who had actually been responsible for tearing back the paper of the presents while playing in the basement on Christmas Day, and I wondered why Patsy would claim responsibility for doing this. Patsy had also told investigators that the unwrapped box of Lego toys in the same room was being hidden for Burke's upcoming January birthday.

I didn?t give much thought about the presence of Christmas presents in the room at the time, but would later think these played a role in some of the events that took place on Christmas day.

All three Ramsey have a story to tell regarding the size-12's, and if they do not matter why the varying accounts?

.

 

[Rain on my Parade]

You are a parent you are staging your daughter's death, so why would you dress her in another persons underwear?

UKGuy,
A matter of convenience. As evidence shows; JB life was ended in the basement. We don’t know where she was redressed.

Because why would JonBenet's killer run downstairs for oversized underwear when there is a drawer full of underwear in her bathroom?

Exactly. Why not grab whatever was convenient. The day didn’t matter nor did the size apparently. PR was said to have returned the remainder of the package, a year later. Obviously this wouldn’t wash out in a court of law because it would only point to the R’s and not an intruder.

It doesn’t make since that PR would give JB Jenny’s size 12 bloomies and put them in her underwear drawer. They would have fallen down around her ankles.

 

[UKGuy]

UKGuy,
A matter of convenience. As evidence shows; JB life was ended in the basement. We don’t know where she was redressed.



Exactly. Why not grab whatever was convenient. The day didn’t matter nor did the size apparently. PR was said to have returned the remainder of the package, a year later. Obviously this wouldn’t wash out in a court of law because it would only point to the R’s and not an intruder.

It doesn’t make since that PR would give JB Jenny’s size 12 bloomies and put them in her underwear drawer. They would have fallen down around her ankles.

Rain on my Parade,

As evidence shows; JB life was ended in the basement. We don’t know where she was redressed.

She was probably redressed in different locations.

Exactly. Why not grab whatever was convenient. The day didn’t matter nor did the size apparently. PR was said to have returned the remainder of the package, a year later. Obviously this wouldn’t wash out in a court of law because it would only point to the R’s and not an intruder.

The Day Of The week feature does not matter because according to Patsy:
BPD 1998 Patsy Interview, Excerpt

16 THOMAS HANEY: Did JonBenet have
17 panties with the names of each day of the week
18 on it?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
20 THOMAS HANEY: Okay. And did she
21 wear those according to the day of the week or
22 was it just kind of --
23 PATSY RAMSEY: Just whatever.
24 THOMAS HANEY: Did she know, pay
25 much attention to what day of the week it was?
1 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
2 THOMAS HANEY: So whatever would
3 come out of the drawer?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: (Nodding).

So Patsy's official position is Any Pair Will Do

I'm assuming Patsy did not redress JonBenet in those size-12's. Since the purpose of the wine-cellar staging is to fake a crime-scene that is the result of bedroom abduction, and JonBenet wearing another person's underwear destroys the illusion.

The Ramsey's did not realize that they had made a staging error until it was too late and they had been locked into their various versions of events.

This is why they had to magic up the size-12's, which anyone could do by a quick visit to Bloomingdale's!

Patsy lied, John lied, Burke lied, but one of them knew where the underwear went and why they selected a Wednesday Day Of The Week pair of size-12's?

.

 

[GooseyPie]

I don’t understand this, they had hours to stage the crime scene so why not go upstairs and get her regular underwear. Also why didn’t they find semen anywhere and why was she only digitally penetrated, this is not usual, who would have the control to not fully rape her if they were that sick!!!!

 

[UKGuy]

I don’t understand this, they had hours to stage the crime scene so why not go upstairs and get her regular underwear. Also why didn’t they find semen anywhere and why was she only digitally penetrated, this is not usual, who would have the control to not fully rape her if they were that sick!!!!

GooseyPie,
Because the person who originally assaulted and redressed JonBenet is not the same person who either whacked her on the head and/or asphyxiated her!

Somebody was staging a crime-scene after the fact and they were not in full possession of the facts, so they made mistakes, e.g. size-12's left on JonBenet.

This somebody wanted minimal contact with JonBenet's body so changing underwear was discounted, maybe they saw the Bloomingdale's logo and Day Of The Week Wednesday and thought they will do?

who would have the control to not fully rape her if they were that sick!!!!

Its possible the person who assaulted JonBenet was not physically mature enough to rape JonBenet and that the signs of sexual assault are fake?

.

 

[Logic101]

It is quite obvious by looking at the crime scene photos of the size of those partially opened boxes, that they were entirely too big to hold a package of panties.

I think that Patsy is the one that had to take a peak just to remember which ones were to stay in the basement in anticipation of Burke’s upcoming birthday.

 

[Logic101]

Sorry - peek not peak