Questions you'd like answers to... #2

[UKGuy]

Maybe PR decided to move her to the basement to just to get her out of sight as she didn't want to see what had happened? If PR was going about cleaning things up/staging, maybe seeing her dead daughter was too much and she thought to get her out of sight, out of mind?

Venom,
You could be right, as there did not appear to much cleaning up done in JonBenet's bedroom?

One aspect to the case that is never touched on in the media is that the forensic evidence suggests Patsy ligature asphyxiated JonBenet thereby murdering her.

Which in a sense definitely makes the case PDI?

.

 

[UKGuy]

I think JonBenet was placed in the wine cellar so she could hopefully be the equivalent of Lazarus.

icedtea4me,
You reckon there was a religious theme?

SBTC certainly seems to suggest this, the risen christ and all that.

Another interesting angle was did Patsy intend the RN to look as if it came from a Christian Fundamentalist Sect, e.g. Branch Davidians, or Children of God, etc?

Was any religious theme an oblique comment on JonBenet's pageant appearances and the need to save her, hence SBTC?

.

 

[Rain on my Parade]

One aspect to the case that is never touched on in the media is that the forensic evidence suggests Patsy ligature asphyxiated JonBenet thereby murdering her.

UKGuy,
This fiber evidence is an interesting thing. PR interview August 2000:
MR. KANE: Well, I am telling
16 you, it is -- is it conclusive in the sense
17 that, that there is something unique about it
18 that could only come from a particular item,
19 then the answer is no.
20 Is it that it is identical in all
21 respects to the fibers off of the jacket,
22 then the answer is yes.
23 Now, does that mean it is
24 conclusive?
25 MR. WOOD: It doesn't sound like
1 it to me.
2 MR. KANE: Then you have got your
3 answer.
consistent - not a match

As I have pointed out before: ST disposition: Wolf vs. Ramsey
That was the red and black and
gray jacket that she was wearing?
A. I've always heard it referred to
as a red and black jacket, yes.

**The scarf that was not taken into evidence (on the wet bar) was red and black. PR gave out scarves to guests on the 23rd, which included JAR and JR. JR states this is a scarf given to him by Beth.

 

[UKGuy]

UKGuy,
This fiber evidence is an interesting thing. PR interview August 2000:
MR. KANE: Well, I am telling
16 you, it is -- is it conclusive in the sense
17 that, that there is something unique about it
18 that could only come from a particular item,
19 then the answer is no.
20 Is it that it is identical in all
21 respects to the fibers off of the jacket,
22 then the answer is yes.
23 Now, does that mean it is
24 conclusive?
25 MR. WOOD: It doesn't sound like
1 it to me.
2 MR. KANE: Then you have got your
3 answer.
consistent - not a match

As I have pointed out before: ST disposition: Wolf vs. Ramsey
That was the red and black and
gray jacket that she was wearing?
A. I've always heard it referred to
as a red and black jacket, yes.

**The scarf that was not taken into evidence (on the wet bar) was red and black. PR gave out scarves to guests on the 23rd, which included JAR and JR. JR states this is a scarf given to him by Beth.

Rain on my Parade,
Yes and Kane and Wood are correct but Wood's reasoning is invalid as what he really means is there might be many matches, all consistent with the fiber sample.

So its smoke and mirrors from LW, i.e. the fibers could have come from anywhere, e.g. some pet dog's coat?

Where the real argument is what is the odds that fibers deposited on JonBenet, in the wine-cellar in particular, i.e. a sealed room, and those from Patsy's jacket do not concur?

Basically the odds that some strangers fibers match Patsy's jacket and arrived in the wine-cellar to be embedded into the knotting in the ligature is far higher than that they originated from Patsy's jacket.

The opposite case arises with John's fibers, found on JonBenet's genital area. His fibers are unique as his shirt was an Israeli manufactured shirt using local fabrics, so the argument that they were merely consistent could not be floated.

In a court LW's claims would sound just like what they are, special pleading, i.e. the world is full of red and black fabric items.

The jury would think Nice try, but that does not demonstrate they did not originate from Patsy's clothing.

Sounds like the Scarf topic is another attempt to deploy the only consistent reasoning ploy, e.g. many sources for stated fiber colors, hence the quibble over two or three colors.

Also Patsy is on record as saying she was never down in the basement on Christmas Day or Night.

.

 

[proust20]

PR tried to muddy up the issue of her jacket by suggesting that PW had a similar one. (How sweet) PR's fibers were polyester and microfiber, not cashmere and silk. Nothing wrong with that; but, it doesn't align with the upscale life style that PR attempted to foist upon her social connections. Likewise, JR's shirt was made in Israel, not in the USA, much less Europe. This wouldn't have made a favorable impression at their country club. Maybe they just weren't that into clothes? IMO it just adds to the impression that much of their lives was fraudulent.
Does anyone know which country club was the R's?

 

[Rain on my Parade]

Where the real argument is what is the odds that fibers deposited on JonBenet, in the wine-cellar in particular, i.e. a sealed room, and those from Patsy's jacket do not concur?

UKGuy,
And what are the odds they didn’t take the scarf from the wet bar as evidence?

Sounds like the Scarf topic is another attempt to deploy the only consistent reasoning ploy, e.g. many sources for stated fiber colors, hence the quibble over two or three colors

I simply believe the scarf should have been taken into evidence. PR didn’t turn over the sweater/jacket until 1998. How can we be sure it was the same one?

Also Patsy is on record as saying she was never down in the basement on Christmas Day or Night.

PR is also on record stating she was in the basement on Christmas Day. 1997 April 30 - Taped Interrogation interview of Patsy by Steve Thomas and Tom Trujillo in Colorado

NE Book Page 36:

Tom Trujillo: (Where) do you normally store the Christmas presents say before the 25th?

Patsy Ramsey: "......the basement. I had them all in the basement."

Tom Trujillo: "Okay. Why don't you walk me through the rest of the 25th? What all did you guys do that day?"

Patsy Ramsey: "Well, I continued to wrap some presents. I went back down to the basement on the washing machine area there and wrapped for taking the stuff to the lake..."

 

[Cottonstar]

UKGuy,
And what are the odds they didn’t take the scarf from the wet bar as evidence?



I simply believe the scarf should have been taken into evidence. PR didn’t turn over the sweater/jacket until 1998. How can we be sure it was the same one?


PR is also on record stating she was in the basement on Christmas Day. 1997 April 30 - Taped Interrogation interview of Patsy by Steve Thomas and Tom Trujillo in Colorado

NE Book Page 36:

Tom Trujillo: (Where) do you normally store the Christmas presents say before the 25th?

Patsy Ramsey: "......the basement. I had them all in the basement."

Tom Trujillo: "Okay. Why don't you walk me through the rest of the 25th? What all did you guys do that day?"

Patsy Ramsey: "Well, I continued to wrap some presents. I went back down to the basement on the washing machine area there and wrapped for taking the stuff to the lake..."

ST: Patsy, when were you last in that cellar basement room prior to Christmas?

PR: Prior to Christmas?

ST: Yes ma’am.

PR: Well, I was there, I was down there a lot on the 24th wrapping and I was there on the 25th wrapping.

ST: Okay.

 

[retrometro]

retrometro,
Have you any thoughts as to why Patsy decided on moving JonBenet to the basement rather than just leave her in her bedroom, as relocating her increased the forensic evidence available?
.

UKGuy, thanks for responding. I did not realize that much information was still unreleased. As for your question, I have no good explanation for why JB's body was moved to the basement. My amateur guess would be an elaborate staging plan of some sort, but that's pure speculation on my part.

For the record, I used to think that BDI was impossible. I still find it rather tough to believe, but having revisited all of the publicly available facts in the case, I now think it's hypothetically possible and that it deserves consideration alongside other RDI theories.

 

[Anyhoo]

Allow me to answer your questions one at a time.

1. Why was it so important to the Ramseys' story that JonBenet was asleep when they got home and was taken directly to bed? Burke said she woke up and helped carry stuff into the house. We know she had pineapple, so why lie about her being asleep? It seems as though it would have been easier to say that she woke up when they pulled into the garage, they futzed around and had a snack and then went to bed - why was it important enough to lie about it? It's as if they were afraid to have anyone know the child was on the first floor that night between those hours - why? Did something happen in that part of the house?

The story about JonBenet being asleep when the Ramsey's brought her home is a complete lie. JonBenet was dead by the time she was brought to her house from the Fleet White Jr. house and everything that suggests otherwise is a fabrication or deception. JBR was not taken to bed. What Burke said (if he actually said it) is a lie. It was important to lie about this to hide the truth of where the murder actually took place and more importantly who the murderer was.

 

[UKGuy]

ST: Patsy, when were you last in that cellar basement room prior to Christmas?

PR: Prior to Christmas?

ST: Yes ma’am.

PR: Well, I was there, I was down there a lot on the 24th wrapping and I was there on the 25th wrapping.

ST: Okay.

Cottonstar,
Sure, I stand corrected. I was working from memory, soo bad.

Patsy says she was there on the 25th and from memory Kolar says Burke was there on the 25th and he suggests Burke opened the gifts?

You have to wonder what she was wrapping on the 25th as she was away on vacation the next morning?

Did John not move gifts from the house to the plane on the 25th?

Something does not add up here , might be me?

.

 

[UKGuy]

UKGuy, thanks for responding. I did not realize that much information was still unreleased. As for your question, I have no good explanation for why JB's body was moved to the basement. My amateur guess would be an elaborate staging plan of some sort, but that's pure speculation on my part.

For the record, I used to think that BDI was impossible. I still find it rather tough to believe, but having revisited all of the publicly available facts in the case, I now think it's hypothetically possible and that it deserves consideration alongside other RDI theories.

retrometro,
Anything is possible in this case.

Out of all the theories BDI is the most consistent and explains more of the facts than any other.

PDI comes in 2nd place, and is contradictory in parts.

JDI comes last as there is minimal forensic evidence linking him to JonBenet's, but just enough for him to remain a suspect.

All three Ramsey's have colluded in the postmortem staging and their version of events. We know this by what went wrong, e.g. the size-12's - they vanished from the house, and Burke was taped on the 911 call contradicting his story about being sound asleep!

So basically two of the Ramsey's are covering for one other, whichever is your favorite theory will be that person?

Same theme pops up in the Grand Jury True Bills where JohnBenet's killer is referred to as the person.

I reckon Patsy killed JonBenet so on this basis theoretically the case is PDI?

.

 

[Anyhoo]

2. Why did Burke act so strangely that morning? Why did he pretend to be asleep, and why didn't his parents wake him up and ask him if he had seen or heard anything in the night? Why when his father came up to get him to take him to White's house, did he remain silent and not ask any questions? That's not the way nine year old boys act - they want to know everything that's going on and if a cop walks in the house, they're fascinated by him, and want to know why he's there. This kid did not ask ONE question or exhibit any fear or curiosity at all. (In my opinion, someone put the fear of God in this kid to keep him quiet. I can hear it now, "no matter what anyone asks you, you say you don't know, do you hear me?? Do you want Mom and Dad in jail?? Don't say anything!!!, I mean it, Burke!!!) And I don't care what anyone says about everyone being "different", nine year old boys don't act like that in that kind of situation - he didn't even ask, "is JonBenet going with us to the Whites?"

Burke acted so strange that morning because he knew what happened to his sister. He pretended to be asleep because that is what he was expected to do as part of the cover up. His parents were also part of the cover up so of course they did not ask Burke any questions that they already knew the answers to. Burke remained silent and did not ask any questions because he knew everything. He knew his sister was dead. He knew where she died. He knew who killed her. He had no questions because he was fully aware of what really happened. Burke Ramsey was conditioned to remain silent and to never disclose the truth. Burke did not disclose the truth then and has not to this very day ever disclosed the truth. IMO he never will. He knows to keep his mouth shut. Burke was not just protecting his parents by keeping silent but he was protecting a whole lot of other people also. Important people. Connected people. Powerful people. His parents were never in danger of going to jail so Burke was not protecting them. He was keeping secret what his entire family was involved in. Burke did not ask if JBR was going with us to the Whites because Burke knew JBR was dead. He knew because he was present at the White Residence when JBR was murdered.

 

[proust20]

Not only did the Rs supposedly not ask BR any questions about the previous night; but, when PR called the 2 couples after her 911 call, she didn't ask them to look for any sign of JB on their way to the Rs house.

 

[UKGuy]

Not only did the Rs supposedly not ask BR any questions about the previous night; but, when PR called the 2 couples after her 911 call, she didn't ask them to look for any sign of JB on their way to the Rs house.

proust20,
Well observed. Yes, they had to make life easy for Burke, so here is your story: You went to bed, you slept all night, heard nothing until you awoke the next day, and we never spoke to you about it ever again?

Although Burke will have been in therapy during and after the case, his medical notes are naturally private.

Yet the therapist treating either JonBenet or Burke prior to her death will know exactly what was going on.

I like to say a six-year old girl in therapy, why?

.

 

[neesaki]

Concerning the Ramseys trip to Charlevoix, and upcoming Disney Cruise:
I was just reading this over on ACR site. Can anyone clarify the issue with the scheduling, as according to PR, they would be on the cruise on her birthday, the 29th. Why doesn’t it add up?

Sorry if this has been already discussed and resolved, I couldn’t find anything about it. TIA

s-birthday-patsy-1996.htm

why_nut
Joined: 20 Nov 2006
Posts: 19
Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 6:12 pm Post subject:
How long before the planned trip tickets were bought, I think is not specifically known. There are other facts that are certain. The Big Red Boat trip itself, from 1996 through to the end of 1997, only had three options. Either the Ramseys had taken the three-day package, which traveled on Friday, Saturday, Sunday, or they took the four-day package, which traveled Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday. There was a third option of a seven-day package, but obviously that would have been a simple combination of the three-day and four-day packages. Children under 17 years of age traveled free. If the Ramseys had traveled to Charlevoix on Thursday, December 26th, they would have been required to get to Florida by sometime on the morning of Friday, the 27th, in order to take the three-day cruise which would have let Patsy legitimately announce that her birthday (December 29th, falling on a Sunday that year) would be on the Big Red Boat. It hardly seemed worthwhile at that point, they would have spent mere hours in Charlevoix, and as crime scene photos have shown, Patsy was not done packing for the cruise, so she would have had to complete that task either Thursday night or in the very early morning hours of Friday morning.

If they had taken the four-day package, leaving on Monday, then there would have been a little more wiggle room for the Charlevoix trip, since they could have spent Thursday and Friday there, then come back to finish packing on Saturday, and flown out on Sunday to be there for a Monday departure. The problem with that scenario is that Patsy would then have been lying when she told her family-newsletter audience that she was celebrating her birthday on the cruise ship, since she would obviously not have been on board yet.

 

[neesaki]

Concerning the Ramseys trip to Charlevoix, and upcoming Disney Cruise:
I was just reading this over on ACR site. Can anyone clarify the issue with the scheduling, as according to PR, they would be on the cruise on her birthday, the 29th. Why doesn’t it add up?

Sorry if this has been already discussed and resolved, I couldn’t find anything about it. TIA

s-birthday-patsy-1996.htm

I think that information on the four day cruise was wrong. I think instead of starting on Monday, it started on Sunday, which does line up with PR being on the boat for her birthday.
That said, I’ve always thought it strange that they flew to Charlevoix for such a short stay.... to then turn around and fly back to Boulder, then turn around and fly to Florida. Why didn’t they just have their grown kids come to Boulder?

 

[Swirlz]

Who nicknamed John Ramsey "iceman" and which book was that in?

 

[icedtea4me]

<snip>
That said, I’ve always thought it strange that they flew to Charlevoix for such a short stay.... to then turn around and fly back to Boulder, then turn around and fly to Florida. Why didn’t they just have their grown kids come to Boulder?

That's exactly what I was thinking. You know, why not just skip having the older kids come to Boulder and have everyone there for the holiday/birthday celebration on the Disney boat?

 

[neesaki]

That's exactly what I was thinking. You know, why not just skip having the older kids come to Boulder and have everyone there for the holiday/birthday celebration on the Disney boat?

Not sure where I read it, but that PR didn’t want to go to Charlevoix, JR did. It was such a short time to spend there, having to rush hither and yon to go here then go there, I mean, my gosh.

Which has really now got me rethinking who I suspect killed JBR.

 

[icedtea4me]

Not sure where I read it, but that PR didn’t want to go to Charlevoix, JR did. It was such a short time to spend there, having to rush hither and yon to go here then go there, I mean, my gosh.

Which has really now got me rethinking who I suspect killed JBR.

I read that, too. Maybe it was in one of John's interviews.