Identified! MT - Marion, WhtMale 18-49, UP13963, MJ Pipe, Pistol, Poker Game, Oct'03 - Steven Edward Gooch

[YaYa_521]

One person comes to mind, although I’m sure they’ve checked the databases for those surnames/locations. And this guy is a little outside the parameters; age & height. ETA: may not be off the mark, conflicting stats listed. I see a resemblance though.

Larry Franklin Trent – The Charley Project
View attachment 260699View attachment 260698

I certainly don't see anything that would rule him out besides potentially location and circumstances. Who'd "walk" from TN to MT? As we well know though, it's fairly easy to get around in today's age. It'd be nice to know whether Larry enjoyed playing poker.

 

[YaYa_521]

Any R/O? Terry Turner maybe?

One exclusion:
MP253 Shannon LaBau 02/23/1999 Lewis and Clark MT

 

[dotr]

Cold case on found remains from 2003 still has officials searching for answers
•Aug 27, 2020

 

[YaYa_521]

Cold case on found remains from 2003 still has officials searching for answers
•Aug 27, 2020

Thanks for the link, @dotr!

Screenshot taken from the video.

 

[djanga]

Thanks for the link, @dotr!

Screenshot taken from the video.

In the special edition of Crime Junkey podcast dedicated to the Marion County (Flathead) John Doe there is more information about this gun. It’s previous owner is alive and he had sold it to another gun shop. But it’s a dead end, there are no records of who bought this gun next

 

[iulia]

Who is Cliff Doe?

[...]
“Cliff” is the nickname given by deputies and detectives to the man at the center of Flathead County Sheriff’s Office Case No. 200323911, one of the only cases of unidentified human remains in the county.
[...]
The case of Cliff Doe is turning into a long slog.

Presently, the closest genetic match Jones and her fellow volunteers have found for Cliff is someone approximately 70 centimorgans away. For laypeople, a centimorgan is a unit for measuring genetic linkage; the more centimorgans, the more likely someone is a direct relative. For example, there are 3,600 centimorgans between a child and a parent. Seventy centimorgans means there’s a 33 percent chance that the two people could be half third cousins. So far, Jones has been able to determine that Cliff was somehow related to a husband and wife born in Kentucky in the early 19th century. The man, born in about 1822, and the woman, born around 1817, had at least 10 children together and many more grandchildren and great grandchildren. Jones is working to identify the family lineage that connects Cliff with the Kentucky couple, but she admits it will likely take time, with many dead ends. Creating family trees can also be complicated by the fact that some offspring may not be documented, like those born out of wedlock.

“When you’re going that far back, you have to go through a lot of people to bring it back to today,” she says. “But there’s a thrill to doing this work. The thrill of solving it keeps you going. Even figuring out a new potential relative is exciting because it brings you a little closer to an answer.”

Fister says he believes work by the DNA Doe Project combined with information from the many genetic databases will eventually help identity Cliff Doe.

 

[JovanSrna]

Who is Cliff Doe?

 

[wary]

I certainly don't see anything that would rule him out besides potentially location and circumstances. Who'd "walk" from TN to MT? As we well know though, it's fairly easy to get around in today's age. It'd be nice to know whether Larry enjoyed playing poker.

I don’t think we can trust the ‘parameters.’ Specially not when all they found were scattered bones, (mainly in packrst nests, which implies smaller bones.)

 

[wary]

Who is Cliff Doe?

Does anyone have a theory as to circumstances of his death? The hole in his skull implies a connection with the pistol at the top of the cliff. But if someone shot him, why would the pistol be placed in a bag and left at the scene?

Suicide? Again, how would the gun get back in the bag? Is it possible that the bag is a red herring, and the gun was on top of it? So, he shot himself, the gun fell from his hand, and he fell off the cliff? (I didn’t notice if it was a sheer enough cliff for that scenario to be possible.)

 

[dotr]

Who is Cliff Doe?

Very good article, lots of detail. Thanks for posting!

Facial reconstruction of Cliff Doe, an unidentified man whose remains were found outside of Marion in 2003. - Courtesy Image; RIGHT: Photos of items that were found with human remains discovered near Marion in October 20

''Everything he had with him the day he died fits inside a single cardboard box. Most of his possessions — a knife, sunglasses, a bottle of Aleve, a pipe, and a book — are shoved in brown paper bags from Rosauers that have been folded up inside the box for 17 years. Shelley Giebeig, a coroner and detective’s secretary with the Flathead County Sheriff’s Office, removes each bag and spreads out the contents on a conference room table, careful to not rip the disintegrating paperback pages or to fray the blue fanny pack that contained it.''


''Presently, the closest genetic match Jones and her fellow volunteers have found for Cliff is someone approximately 70 centimorgans away. For laypeople, a centimorgan is a unit for measuring genetic linkage; the more centimorgans, the more likely someone is a direct relative. For example, there are 3,600 centimorgans between a child and a parent. Seventy centimorgans means there’s a 33 percent chance that the two people could be half third cousins. So far, Jones has been able to determine that Cliff was somehow related to a husband and wife born in Kentucky in the early 19th century. The man, born in about 1822, and the woman, born around 1817, had at least 10 children together and many more grandchildren and great grandchildren. Jones is working to identify the family lineage that connects Cliff with the Kentucky couple, but she admits it will likely take time, with many dead ends. Creating family trees can also be complicated by the fact that some offspring may not be documented, like those born out of wedlock.''

 

[MadMcGoo]

This new article has a ton of information in it! I’m still processing it all. My initial thought was suicide by the way they described things, but I haven’t played out the logistics of that yet. I can’t imagine many instances where the killer would leave the murder weapon so close to the victim, but like you said, I’m not sure how the victim could have placed the gun in the manner it was found had he shot himself. Interesting info about the selling/pawning of the gun.

I went ahead and sent in Larry’s information to The Doe Network for comparison with this UID.

 

[djanga]

Who is Cliff Doe?

Wow, a lot of new information! I am fascinated by the power of forensic genealogy, back to the beginning of 1800-ies, so powerful.

 

[JudgeJoe]

Fascinating! Following...

 

[dotr]

Who is Cliff Doe?
''Giebeig says she thinks about the man often and even recently started to read the “Phases of Gravity,” the book that was found with him when he died, thinking that maybe it would reveal something about his personality or his mindset when he died.''

This is the book found with the UID's possessions, FWIW..
''Phases of Gravity''

https://www.amazon.com/Phases-Gravity-Dan-Simmons/dp/1596064161
''Richard Baedecker, the aptly named hero of this extraordinary novel, is a man adrift, searching for a lost sense of purpose. A former astronaut, Baedecker once walked on the moon, briefly escaping the tidal pull of gravity itself. Sixteen years later, gravity and other entropic forces have overtaken him. His marriage has ended. His professional life has grown increasingly meaningless. His relationship with his only son has all but disintegrated. At this critical moment, against the unlikely backdrop of Poona, India, Baedecker encounters a remarkable young woman named Maggie Brown, who will point him toward the "places of power" he has left behind and help him rediscover his essential self.

Phases of Gravity is a novel about the power of dreams and the possibility of second chances, about journeys remembered and newly undertaken. It is also, like so much of Dan Simmons's work, a deeply affecting reflection on "the richness and mystery of the universe." Moving effortlessly from the surface of the moon to the small towns of the American Midwest to the sacred Black Hills of South Dakota, and filled with wisdom, unexpected turnings, and flashes of irreverent wit, Phases of Gravity is, by any definition, a major work, the kind of durable, fully realized creation that only a master novelist could produce.''

 

[JovanSrna]

Cases with book references or books are really interesting.
Mary Anderson had a Bible with the pages open to Psalm 23.
Lyle Stevik's pseudonym was based on a character from a novel.

 

[JudgeJoe]

Who is Cliff Doe?
''Giebeig says she thinks about the man often and even recently started to read the “Phases of Gravity,” the book that was found with him when he died, thinking that maybe it would reveal something about his personality or his mindset when he died.''

This is the book found with the UID's possessions, FWIW..
''Phases of Gravity''

https://www.amazon.com/Phases-Gravity-Dan-Simmons/dp/1596064161
''Richard Baedecker, the aptly named hero of this extraordinary novel, is a man adrift, searching for a lost sense of purpose. A former astronaut, Baedecker once walked on the moon, briefly escaping the tidal pull of gravity itself. Sixteen years later, gravity and other entropic forces have overtaken him. His marriage has ended. His professional life has grown increasingly meaningless. His relationship with his only son has all but disintegrated. At this critical moment, against the unlikely backdrop of Poona, India, Baedecker encounters a remarkable young woman named Maggie Brown, who will point him toward the "places of power" he has left behind and help him rediscover his essential self.

Phases of Gravity is a novel about the power of dreams and the possibility of second chances, about journeys remembered and newly undertaken. It is also, like so much of Dan Simmons's work, a deeply affecting reflection on "the richness and mystery of the universe." Moving effortlessly from the surface of the moon to the small towns of the American Midwest to the sacred Black Hills of South Dakota, and filled with wisdom, unexpected turnings, and flashes of irreverent wit, Phases of Gravity is, by any definition, a major work, the kind of durable, fully realized creation that only a master novelist could produce.''

From $4.22 on eBay or $8.99 Kindle. I think I’ll give it a go- in support of IDing Cliff Doe.

 

[JovanSrna]

From $4.22 on eBay or $8.99 Kindle. I think I’ll give it a go- in support of IDing Cliff Doe.

Give us a TLDR once you finish it.

 

[Nate_Bro]

I havent considered any circumstances, but he does resemble a man I saw that went missing from Canada.
Canada's Missing | Case details

 

[djanga]

It would be great if people who have the family names as Cliff Doe took a genealogical test and opted in on GEDmatch.
Based on his matches, the DNA Doe Project believes that he could have connections to these surnames and locations.

Saylor, Helton, Brock, or Blanton from Harlan County, Kentucky
Ward, Linn, or Barrett from Montgomery County, Indiana
Greene, Epperson, Seales, or Trent from Hancock County, Tennessee"

 

[Tabirey]

WHOA Mr. Laughing has a Trent line; Mr. Laughing has ties to Hancock County but from the other side of his family tree.

(Everyone is accounted for, AFAIK.)

Hancock County is the eastern end of Tennessee, on the border with Virginia.

Melungeon people, a small genetic group, live there.

I could go on, but will spare you.

Whoa! My hubby is connected to the Melungeon people also, I'll have to double check his tree and see if he has any of these surnames.