Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #126

[MistyWaters]

I have no problem with someone who's DNA was found at the crime scene to plead Not Guilty. A good prosecutor would tear him a new one if he decides to testify. Esp if the DNA is found on one of the bodies, hair roots under the vic's nails, touch DNA on the girls clothes or a drop of his blood close by. Not worried one bit. Now if the DNA is found on a milk carton 50 feet away, in the Creek etc...thats a little different, yes more evidence would be needed.

A lot would depend if a single, full DNA profile was found and where. All DNA is not equal. For example Libby’s sister reportedly gave both the girls sweatshirts which came from an assortment she carried along with her in the trunk of her car. Given the girls were active in sports, went to school, and borrowed clothing it would be unlikely only their own DNA and the killer’s touch DNA was present on their clothing (I’m referring to outer clothing <modsnip>).

“DNA profiling has had some remarkable successes, including finally ending a two-decade long hunt for the “Green River Killer,” who strangled at least fifty women, dumping their bodies in various spots around the Green River in Washington State. However, DNA profiles are often not clean enough to conclusively identify an individual. Ideally, a DNA sample would be complete enough to examine at least 16 different “markers,” points at which an individual’s DNA fingerprint can be sketched out. But when DNA is damaged, as it often is through exposure to moisture or extreme temperatures, only some of these markers will be available, and forensics teams will generate a partial profile. Put simply, if a DNA profile is a complete description of a person’s appearance, a partial profile might describe only one of their traits—hair color, for instance.

Partial profiles will match up with many more people than a full profile. And even full profiles may match with a person other than the culprit. Further complicating matters, a single DNA profile might be mistakenly generated when samples from multiple people are accidentally combined. It’s a messy world....”
How Forensic DNA Evidence Can Lead to Wrongful Convictions | JSTOR Daily

 

[Deleted member 102539]

All such a good idea, @Howcanppldosuch... But what if...? *What if...the killer is an only child, or someone with no cousins in the immediate area? *What if...the killer's "protector" (for the sake of example, let's say a family member, but -- hey, we have *noo* idea, for sure -- entirely speculation here) looong ago back in 2017, shortly after the crime took place, "advised" all family members/relatives via an e-mail newsletter with general family updates, sent to all family members, whether they were then in Delphi, or in any other area of the country, to "not donate blood, or do ***any*** DNA tests of *any* kind; *someone* out there is trying to 'pin' something on one of us..."? *What then?

Oh, sure, I realize that sounds super far-fetched. IKR? But still... when family members are doing their best to "protect" one of their own, and want to do so in the most unobtrusive manner, in order to attract the *least* amount of attention, it seems likely that they would tend to fall back on a familiar way of responding when in "crisis" mode... All JMOO.

(Think about it: Some protect others with guns; others do their "protecting" using what is most familiar to them: their words... *If* the killer comes from a family used to using their words to "protect" each other, then...it would seem entirely natural for someone in the "protect-the-killer" mode to use *their own* words to "protect" a suspect -- perhaps by even advising others "in advance" [of any potential investigations] to avoid donating blood, or doing any DNA tests. "Out-of-the-box" concept? Maybe. Then again, maybe not...)

The "protector" can then only be a head of the family, who had or has filth on it himself and wants to protect himself first. I think, these families will exist, with certainty! Bad for LE/FBI and the victims.

 

[Charlot123]

A lot would depend if a single, full DNA profile was found and where. All DNA is not equal. For example Libby’s sister reportedly gave both the girls sweatshirts which came from an assortment she carried along with her in the trunk of her car. Given the girls were active in sports, went to school, and borrowed clothing it would be unlikely only their own DNA and the killer’s touch DNA was present on their clothing (I’m referring to outer clothing<modsnip>).

“DNA profiling has had some remarkable successes, including finally ending a two-decade long hunt for the “Green River Killer,” who strangled at least fifty women, dumping their bodies in various spots around the Green River in Washington State. However, DNA profiles are often not clean enough to conclusively identify an individual. Ideally, a DNA sample would be complete enough to examine at least 16 different “markers,” points at which an individual’s DNA fingerprint can be sketched out. But when DNA is damaged, as it often is through exposure to moisture or extreme temperatures, only some of these markers will be available, and forensics teams will generate a partial profile. Put simply, if a DNA profile is a complete description of a person’s appearance, a partial profile might describe only one of their traits—hair color, for instance.

Partial profiles will match up with many more people than a full profile. And even full profiles may match with a person other than the culprit. Further complicating matters, a single DNA profile might be mistakenly generated when samples from multiple people are accidentally combined. It’s a messy world....”
How Forensic DNA Evidence Can Lead to Wrongful Convictions | JSTOR Daily

Things happen. Of my older relatives who collected DNAs for my projects, most did a very good job. One, however, botched a commercial test (forgot to add preservative). The second test was a brush one (what could go wrong?), but even there he messed up, although, not fully. That was DNA collection, in the privacy of own home, with an instruction. So I can imagine that crime scene DNA might be of poor quality, tbh.

 

[Charlot123]

The "protector" can then only be a head of the family, who had or has filth on it himself and wants to protect himself first. I think, these families will exist, with certainty! Bad for LE/FBI and the victims.

Everyone comments on the BG being religious? All I can say - one can not pray the sin of omission in L@A case away. Let us admit, covering BG up is sheer hypocrisy.

 

[Charlot123]

A lot would depend if a single, full DNA profile was found and where. All DNA is not equal. For example Libby’s sister reportedly gave both the girls sweatshirts which came from an assortment she carried along with her in the trunk of her car. Given the girls were active in sports, went to school, and borrowed clothing it would be unlikely only their own DNA and the killer’s touch DNA was present on their clothing (I’m referring to outer clothing <modsnip>).

“DNA profiling has had some remarkable successes, including finally ending a two-decade long hunt for the “Green River Killer,” who strangled at least fifty women, dumping their bodies in various spots around the Green River in Washington State. However, DNA profiles are often not clean enough to conclusively identify an individual. Ideally, a DNA sample would be complete enough to examine at least 16 different “markers,” points at which an individual’s DNA fingerprint can be sketched out. But when DNA is damaged, as it often is through exposure to moisture or extreme temperatures, only some of these markers will be available, and forensics teams will generate a partial profile. Put simply, if a DNA profile is a complete description of a person’s appearance, a partial profile might describe only one of their traits—hair color, for instance.

Partial profiles will match up with many more people than a full profile. And even full profiles may match with a person other than the culprit. Further complicating matters, a single DNA profile might be mistakenly generated when samples from multiple people are accidentally combined. It’s a messy world....”
How Forensic DNA Evidence Can Lead to Wrongful Convictions | JSTOR Daily

About the sweatshirts, witnesses’ memory might be imprecise, given the shock of what happened afterwards.

However, a totally opposite thing might happen, too. Imagine there is DNA found in more or less predictable circumstances, identified, even, and the owner says, “yeah, but i was this friend with benefits...” And someone else confirms it, too. And the girls are dead and can’t speak for themselves. How can you prove the person is lying?

While I don’t think it is what happened here, if the killer is well-known to the victim, he can state in his defense that it was consensual, and a day before, for example. And unless he was seen in the proximity of the victim on the day of the murder, even such statement is difficult to disprove. MOO.

 

[MadTing]

If there was one case i could magically solve if i was given a wish this is one is right up there.

 

[Yemelyan]

However, a totally opposite thing might happen, too. Imagine there is DNA found in more or less predictable circumstances, identified, even, and the owner says, “yeah, but i was this friend with benefits...” And someone else confirms it, too. And the girls are dead and can’t speak for themselves. How can you prove the person is lying?

While I don’t think it is what happened here, if the killer is well-known to the victim, he can state in his defense that it was consensual, and a day before, for example. And unless he was seen in the proximity of the victim on the day of the murder, even such statement is difficult to disprove. MOO.

Snipped and bolded by me.

The autopsy would prove the person who claimed a consensual sexual encounter was lying. Here's why.

Sperm degrade in very predictable patterns inside the female reproductive tract. I think most everyone has heard the statement "sperm can live in the female reproductive tract for FIVE days." Well, that's not exactly the whole story.

Survival times for sperm have been estimated to be 1.4 days on average. Some do survive a bit longer. Sperm have a 5% probability of surviving more than 4.4 days and a 1% probability of surviving more than 6.8 days.

Unless the female is in a very specific fertile window in her cycle, acidic conditions actually cause sperm to start to degrade within 12 hours (lose their tails, stop swimming, die off). In other words, they wouldn't look like fresh sperm. They'd look like old sperm when examined microscopically. Specifically, the rates of them that were dead vs. still alive would allow a pathologist to state how many hours or days old they were.

I think that these and other anatomical findings in conjunction with questioning the girls' family members would enable investigators to pinpoint the answer to whether a consensual sexual encounter could have occurred as stated.

 

[Cryptic]

Oh, sure, I realize that sounds super far-fetched. IKR? But still... when family members are doing their best to "protect" one of their own, and want to do so in the most unobtrusive manner, in order to attract the *least* amount of attention, it seems likely that they would tend to fall back on a familiar way of responding when in "crisis" mode... All JMOO.

(Think about it: Some protect others with guns; others do their "protecting" using what is most familiar to them: their words...

Though admonishments to others about the dangers of DNA tests and not to give blood may be a little less likely (younger members of the family would probably view such an admonishment as in invitation to openly speculate), I think the idea of the older BG personal having a quiet protector is not improbable at all.

One member termed the following possible individual "Wally":

Wally never married, has no children and lives with an elderly aunt, mother, sister etc. Wally is slow, but still very responsible for his actions. The care taker provides for his modest needs. This includes creasing his work clothes olde school style. Wally may also work low skill jobs and may, or may not drive regularly.

Following the crime, Wally's protector has suspiscions, but goes into denial mode and convinces herself that Wally is a "good man", but might potentially get into "trouble" or be "misunderstood" one day.

She then goes into quiet protector mode out of family loyalty. Wally's limited driving privelages are revoked, her husband's old pistol that Wally had access to "disappears", Wally is told to or encouraged to quit any work due to health reasons. Likewise, any limited social contacts that Wally may have been allowed to maintain are discontinued.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

About the sweatshirts, witnesses’ memory might be imprecise, given the shock of what happened afterwards.

However, a totally opposite thing might happen, too. Imagine there is DNA found in more or less predictable circumstances, identified, even, and the owner says, “yeah, but i was this friend with benefits...” And someone else confirms it, too. And the girls are dead and can’t speak for themselves. How can you prove the person is lying?

While I don’t think it is what happened here, if the killer is well-known to the victim, he can state in his defense that it was consensual, and a day before, for example. And unless he was seen in the proximity of the victim on the day of the murder, even such statement is difficult to disprove. MOO.

Kelsi’s statement on the sweatshirts is one of the few facts in this case. Her statement is too matter-of-fact to imagine it may be “imprecise” memory. To dismiss it just for the intent of spinning some speculation seems unnecessary.
This is not going to be a “he said, she said(or can’t say)” kinda case. These are two very young teens who were brutally murdered from all we’ve heard and, if there is DNA, it will be obvious to the medical examiner it was not consensual.
And I would like to add, I am well aware that girls this age are sexually active, but there is nothing other than rumor that indicates THESE girls were.
Just my thoughts.

 

[MistyWaters]

I can’t remember if this was mentioned here already but this interview with Trooper Bryant is the same man involved with the witness in creating the 2nd Delphi suspect sketch. He talks about why sketches can still prove beneficial in solving cases.

“The growing use of surveillance cameras has cut down on the need for composite sketches.

But when there's no video, DNA or fingerprints — a hand-drawn sketch, using this trooper's skill can give victims back their power and bring bad guys to justice.”
Meet the sketch artist who helps ISP catch bad guys | wthr.com

 

[Charlot123]

Snipped and bolded by me.

The autopsy would prove the person who claimed a consensual sexual encounter was lying. Here's why.

Sperm degrade in very predictable patterns inside the female reproductive tract. I think most everyone has heard the statement "sperm can live in the female reproductive tract for FIVE days." Well, that's not exactly the whole story.

Survival times for sperm have been estimated to be 1.4 days on average. Some do survive a bit longer. Sperm have a 5% probability of surviving more than 4.4 days and a 1% probability of surviving more than 6.8 days.

Unless the female is in a very specific fertile window in her cycle, acidic conditions actually cause sperm to start to degrade within 12 hours (lose their tails, stop swimming, die off). In other words, they wouldn't look like fresh sperm. They'd look like old sperm when examined microscopically. Specifically, the rates of them that were dead vs. still alive would allow a pathologist to state how many hours or days old they were.

I think that these and other anatomical findings in conjunction with questioning the girls' family members would enable investigators to pinpoint the answer to whether a consensual sexual encounter could have occurred as stated.

Right. But we are talking about a live body. What if the body is not alive for a day? Temperature is down, outside, elements. Could it be so that all spermatozoa are dead regardless of when it happened?

 

[Yemelyan]

Right. But we are talking about a live body. What if the body is not alive for a day? Temperature is down, outside, elements. Could it be so that all spermatozoa are dead regardless of when it happened?

IMO, no. Pathologists are required to establish time of last sexual intercourse frequently. They even know when post-mortem sexual activity has occurred based on timings of spermatozoa degradation.

FYI it takes longer than the time the girls were missing for a human body to cool completely. Examiners are trained to control for ambient temperature, etc.

 

[Charlot123]

Kelsi’s statement on the sweatshirts is one of the few facts in this case. Her statement is too matter-of-fact to imagine it may be “imprecise” memory. To dismiss it just for the intent of spinning some speculation seems unnecessary.
This is not going to be a “he said, she said(or can’t say)” kinda case. These are two very young teens who were brutally murdered from all we’ve heard and, if there is DNA, it will be obvious to the medical examiner it was not consensual.
And I would like to add, I am well aware that girls this age are sexually active, but there is nothing other than rumor that indicates THESE girls were.
Just my thoughts.

About the sweatshirts. Looking at Abby, who was so much more petite than both German girls, she probably would have drowned in any of their clothes, and teenage girls are vain. She might have taken it, but I doubt she put it on. But this is just my own opinion. Simply, it seems that on that photo on the bridge, she is wearing very own sweatshirt. If Kelsi says she gave shirts to them, she did. Whether Abby wore it, is a huge question. MOO.

As to my second part, it is more about a hypothetical situation. Really, all depends on what, and where, was found. My feeling is that the girls were somehow known to the perpetrator, maybe they did not know him, but he knew them. And that attack was planned. MOO. I am hoping for the change that would make solution of the case possible.

 

[Ravenmoon]

Kelsi’s statement on the sweatshirts is one of the few facts in this case. Her statement is too matter-of-fact to imagine it may be “imprecise” memory. To dismiss it just for the intent of spinning some speculation seems unnecessary.
This is not going to be a “he said, she said(or can’t say)” kinda case. These are two very young teens who were brutally murdered from all we’ve heard and, if there is DNA, it will be obvious to the medical examiner it was not consensual.
And I would like to add, I am well aware that girls this age are sexually active, but there is nothing other than rumor that indicates THESE girls were.
Just my thoughts.

I agree with all you have said.
Given their age, there can be no consensual sex.
I would not even believe they were sexually active to begin with.

 

[MistyWaters]

About the sweatshirts. Looking at Abby, who was so much more petite than both German girls, she probably would have drowned in any of their clothes, and teenage girls are vain. She might have taken it, but I doubt she put it on. But this is just my own opinion. Simply, it seems that on that photo on the bridge, she is wearing very own sweatshirt. If Kelsi says she gave shirts to them, she did. Whether Abby wore it, is a huge question. MOO.

As to my second part, it is more about a hypothetical situation. Really, all depends on what, and where, was found. My feeling is that the girls were somehow known to the perpetrator, maybe they did not know him, but he knew them. And that attack was planned. MOO. I am hoping for the change that would make solution of the case possible.

On her twitter acct around early June/20 Kelsi posted an older photo of herself wearing the same jacket Abby was wearing in the photo on the bridge. We have no reason to doubt her word. IIRC Abby was also wearing a shirt belonging to her mother as well. This comment was made by her mom on Dr Phil and one reason Abby’s mom strongly denied they went to the bridge to meet boys....I recall her saying “Abby would never dress like that!”.

 

[rosesfromangels]

On her twitter acct around early June/20 Kelsi posted an older photo of herself wearing the same jacket Abby was wearing in the photo on the bridge. We have no reason to doubt her word. IIRC Abby was also wearing a shirt belonging to her mother as well. This comment was made by her mom on Dr Phil and one reason Abby’s mom strongly denied they went to the bridge to meet boys....I recall her saying “Abby would never dress like that!”.

With sincere respect to Abby's Mom, teens get to an age where Mom's don't know everything they are up to. I agree that the girls didn't look spiffed up to meet a boy. HOWEVER, that doesn't mean they/one of them didn't tell a "boy" where/what they were going to do that afternoon. I still strongly speculate the picture post of Abby on the bridge was to promote what they were doing to someone in particular.

Only theory of course.

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[MistyWaters]

With sincere respect to Abby's Mom, teens get to an age where Mom's don't know everything they are up to. I agree that the girls didn't look spiffed up to meet a boy. HOWEVER, that doesn't mean they/one of them didn't tell a "boy" where/what they were going to do that afternoon. I still strongly speculate the picture post of Abby on the bridge was to promote what they were doing to someone in particular.

Only theory of course.

Amateur opinion and speculation

Yes I agree anything is possible.

I’ll admit I’ve always been curious if there was a specific reason Libby sent the SC photos almost immediately after she took them although it may’ve been nothing more than routine habit.

But it’s always struck me as an unusual coincidence if there’s absolutely no connection - to become randomly selected victims of an unknown murderer, shortly after that SC was sent to various online recipients announcing their presence on the bridge.

JMO

 

[Yemelyan]

Yes I agree anything is possible.

I’ll admit I’ve always been curious if there was a specific reason Libby sent the SC photos almost immediately after she took them although it may’ve been nothing more than routine habit.

But it’s always struck me as an unusual coincidence if there’s absolutely no connection - to become randomly selected victims of an unknown murderer, shortly after that SC was sent to various online recipients announcing their presence on the bridge.

JMO

You know, it's interesting because I feel the various forms of social media are used in different ways, with frequent users of Snapchat and Instagram much more likely to post what they are doing right in the moment (this is, after all, why the Snap Map real time feature was added, so you could share not only exactly what you were doing right that second but also exactly where you were...this feature didn't exist at the time the girls were killed, though). On Instagram where the "insta" is right in the name, people even mockingly have a name for a photo posted well after the activity depicted has ended..."latergram."

I think it would be unusual for girls of their age to have taken such a striking photo on the bridge and resisted the urge to post it immediately to show off their adventure for all their friends to see. But this is just my personal experience.

 

[JnRyan]

Another problem with DNA is that many times it is considered circumstantial evidence. Especially touch DNA. For example, if touch DNA is found on one of the girls it is possible to come from someone who had no contact with either girl. If a woman from out of town bumps one of the girls by accident and touch DNA from a son, boyfriend or husband transfers from her clothing to one of the girls it is possible to be found at the scene even though this person was never in contact with the girls.

I would have thought that blood and/or semen would be solid, but again it depends on the circumstances and where it was found. A case that took a turn for worse recently was the unsolved 2004 Brittany Phillips case in Tulsa. LE had a semen sample from Brittany's bed and LE believed this was the killer since Brittany was raped. Then got a lab to generate a description from the DNA from the sample and now they have a description of the 'killer'. Then the case hits a major snag. They ID the person in 2019 and he wasn't in the area of Brittany's place at the time. His girlfriend was house sitting and they had sex while on Brittany's bed days or weeks before the murder when Brittany was out of town. He is alibied out and 15 years later LE and Brittany's mother learn that the DNA they thought was the best lead is a dead end.

DNA In Tulsa Teen's Murder Case Does Not Belong To Killer

LE, especially ISP 1st Sgt Holeman, have in the past been very coy about DNA. I tend to believe they have DNA. However, I believe they have partial DNA and/or multiple unidentified DNA samples and LE cannot narrow which DNA belongs to the killer. If they even have the killer's DNA in the samples. And even female DNA probably can't be ignored. What if the killer used gloves, for example, and his DNA might not be on the victim, but touch DNA from the killer's mother, sister, girl friend, wife or even a female co-worker was on the gloves and transferred over. Yeah, DNA is great, but I just don't believe it is the magic bullet.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

With sincere respect to Abby's Mom, teens get to an age where Mom's don't know everything they are up to. I agree that the girls didn't look spiffed up to meet a boy. HOWEVER, that doesn't mean they/one of them didn't tell a "boy" where/what they were going to do that afternoon. I still strongly speculate the picture post of Abby on the bridge was to promote what they were doing to someone in particular.

Only theory of course.

Amateur opinion and speculation

Anything is certainly possible since we don’t know much. LE and the families have said that the girl’s, their families’ social media had been looked at very hard and nothing had been found that seemed to be a link to the murders. That of course doesn’t mean they couldn’t have contacted someone some other way, but considering the whole trip to the bridge was put together kinda spur of the moment, I would think that wasn’t the case.
Just my thoughts.