Coronavirus COVID-19 - Global Health Pandemic #78

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tresir2012 said:
Why can't they quarantine at their home or with relatives? Is there any particular reason they cannot be trusted? It does seem harsh.
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It’s not about “trust.” No one knows if they have CoVid and are viral or not.

So every single person has to be tested (preferably before getting on a plane). Certainly, tests have to be performed at landing (since planes are a vector). No test works before at least the 2-3rd day of infection, so they need to be quarantined in hotels/facilities.

Some people will not test positive for 3-5 days, so if a nation wants to be cautious (which Australia does), then another test on Day 5 (I’m sure this might still let some people through who are shedding CoVid - but at this point probably only 1-2 out of 4-5000).

The nation has to be prepared to keep all of the positive-testing people in hotels/facilities until they have 2 negative tests a week apart (so, about a month - or more).

It’s not possible to send people to their families without endangering the families. Full stop.

Statistically, if 5000 are repatriated, it’s likely that at least 50 have been exposed to CoVid - those 50 would set off a chain reaction that would go far beyond their own families (who would also need to be strictly quarantined if hotels aren’t used).

Fact: sending people home to self-quarantine doesn’t work. Quite a few defy the quarantine, some do that even knowing that they have CoVid. Australia justifiably doesn’t want that.
 
10ofRods said:
I wonder what would happen if all the parents who want their kids in a real classroom were allowed to do so - and teachers who don't mind teaching IRL are put in those classrooms. I bet a lot of newly minted teachers looking for work would take those jobs (but some parents would object if they wear masks <modsnip: inappropriate>). Class ratios might not be optimal. We'd probably see death rates among those teachers comparable to among healthcare workers. Over time, it might be hard to recruit teachers (although if CoVid immunity is lasting, maybe not). The parents would likely get CoVId.

I guess for older grades they could divide the kids into two rooms and the teacher could be on closed circuit for 50% of each class hour - although an aide would have to be in the room with the kids.

Presuming that teachers and aides could be young (24-44), in full PPE (masks and face shields) and socially distanced (10 feet away from the first row of students, no hovering over the desk), those people who were demanding to send children could do so.

I bet a lot of Aussies would prefer not to risk their kids in this environment. I know just one person who wants his kids back in class no matter what, neither of my daughters would send their kids into that situation - but lots of other people would. Most of the parents would survive this, although as many as 80% would have damage to their lungs or heart - some of them would experience irreparable damage (but people get damage from smoking - so it’s like that, I guess).
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I think we are very lucky here. Our support services are really good. (Mind you, we pay high taxes.)
The govt has been keeping "covid" money flowing to all citizens who need it for about 7 months now, and we know it will continue to flow until the end of March 2021.

We don't have to make choices about whether or not to send our kids to school. And we likely never would have to make those kind of choices. Due to other support services as well.

IMO
 
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<modsnip: Quoted post was removed>

Staying in your own home or in a separate part of a family home is permitted in several provinces. If you're heading farther north, then there are designated quarantine hotels. Our dear friends just went from Toronto to Nunavut and spent two weeks in quarantine in Winnipeg, then another two weeks in Nunavut. Both times were super strict. They were allowed out into the parking lot for exercise each day for 2 hrs, and otherwise they had to stay in their hotel room. Food and necessities were brought to them by way of a designated carrier.

I would go bonkers.

For travellers without symptoms of COVID-19 returning to Canada - Canada.ca
 
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10ofRods said:
It’s not about “trust.” No one knows if they have CoVid and are viral or not.

So every single person has to be tested (preferably before getting on a plane). Certainly, tests have to be performed at landing (since planes are a vector). No test works before at least the 2-3rd day of infection, so they need to be quarantined in hotels/facilities.

Some people will not test positive for 3-5 days, so if a nation wants to be cautious (which Australia does), then another test on Day 5 (I’m sure this might still let some people through who are shedding CoVid - but at this point probably only 1-2 out of 4-5000).

The nation has to be prepared to keep all of the positive-testing people in hotels/facilities until they have 2 negative tests a week apart (so, about a month - or more).

It’s not possible to send people to their families without endangering the families. Full stop.

Statistically, if 5000 are repatriated, it’s likely that at least 50 have been exposed to CoVid - those 50 would set off a chain reaction that would go far beyond their own families (who would also need to be strictly quarantined if hotels aren’t used).

Fact: sending people home to self-quarantine doesn’t work. Quite a few defy the quarantine, some do that even knowing that they have CoVid. Australia justifiably doesn’t want that.
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Well it works with returning celebrities, so why not regular returning Australians? And the quarantine hotels didn't work anyway. We trust our returning UK citizens to quarantine, when they are returning from countries with high Covid rates. Otherwise there would be no travel anywhere. I disagree that they cannot quarantine with their families. That's what is happening when non travellers are catching Covid. At some point, the government has to start trusting the public.
MOO
 
<modsnip: Quoted post was removed>

Yes, consent is required. Even with consent:

Prohibited during quarantine:

You may not have any guests even if you are outside and stay two metres apart from them.

Permitted during quarantine:

You may use shared spaces, or private outdoor spaces in your place of quarantine provided you:
Avoid contact with others who did not travel with you;
Disinfect spaces after use;
Wear a suitable non-medical mask or face covering if a distance of 2 metres from others residing in your place of quarantine cannot be maintained.

For travellers without symptoms of COVID-19 returning to Canada - Canada.ca
 
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tresir2012 said:
Well it works with returning celebrities, so why not regular returning Australians? And the quarantine hotels didn't work anyway. We trust our returning UK citizens to quarantine, when they are returning from countries with high Covid rates. Otherwise there would be no travel anywhere. I disagree that they cannot quarantine with their families. That's what is happening when non travellers are catching Covid. At some point, the government has to start trusting the public.
MOO
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The Aussie plan to protect their citizens is the envy of the world. They need to work hard to protect it from those who would want to sabotage their efforts.


Australians highly confident of government's handling of coronavirus and economic recovery: new research
 
10ofRods said:
I wonder what would happen if all the parents who want their kids in a real classroom were allowed to do so - and teachers who don't mind teaching IRL are put in those classrooms. I bet a lot of newly minted teachers looking for work would take those jobs (but some parents would object if they wear masks <modsnip: inappropriate>). Class ratios might not be optimal. We'd probably see death rates among those teachers comparable to among healthcare workers. Over time, it might be hard to recruit teachers (although if CoVid immunity is lasting, maybe not). The parents would likely get CoVId.

I guess for older grades they could divide the kids into two rooms and the teacher could be on closed circuit for 50% of each class hour - although an aide would have to be in the room with the kids.

Presuming that teachers and aides could be young (24-44), in full PPE (masks and face shields) and socially distanced (10 feet away from the first row of students, no hovering over the desk), those people who were demanding to send children could do so.

I bet a lot of Aussies would prefer not to risk their kids in this environment. I know just one person who wants his kids back in class no matter what, neither of my daughters would send their kids into that situation - but lots of other people would. Wouldn't really help the herd immunity thing until all those parents get CoVid...but at least, everyone would have a choice?
Click to expand...
I think online learning is getting a lot of perks among middle and upper income families. Just heard how it's now possible to take a vacation with the kids while they are online. AND, hotels are promoting this!!!
These Hotels Will School Your Kids in 2020
 
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10ofRods said:
I wonder what would happen if all the parents who want their kids in a real classroom were allowed to do so - and teachers who don't mind teaching IRL are put in those classrooms. I bet a lot of newly minted teachers looking for work would take those jobs (but some parents would object if they wear masks <modsnip: inappropriate>). Class ratios might not be optimal. We'd probably see death rates among those teachers comparable to among healthcare workers. Over time, it might be hard to recruit teachers (although if CoVid immunity is lasting, maybe not). The parents would likely get CoVId.

I guess for older grades they could divide the kids into two rooms and the teacher could be on closed circuit for 50% of each class hour - although an aide would have to be in the room with the kids.

Presuming that teachers and aides could be young (24-44), in full PPE (masks and face shields) and socially distanced (10 feet away from the first row of students, no hovering over the desk), those people who were demanding to send children could do so.

I bet a lot of Aussies would prefer not to risk their kids in this environment. I know just one person who wants his kids back in class no matter what, neither of my daughters would send their kids into that situation - but lots of other people would. Most of the parents would survive this, although as many as 80% would have damage to their lungs or heart - some of them would experience irreparable damage (but people get damage from smoking - so it’s like that, I guess).
Click to expand...
80% damage to heart and lungs? Thought it was not that common. Hasn't been a number of years yet to see but more is coming out about this which is something the young people should be concerned about because no one knows yet what might "catch up" to them later on.
 
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Cool Cats said:
80% damage to heart and lungs? Thought it was not that common. Hasn't been a number of years yet to see but more is coming out about this which is something the young people should be concerned about because no one knows yet what might "catch up" to them later on.
Click to expand...

I don't think what was quoted is correct. Here is a report from early on about the effects. This states 80% of cases are mild but that a high percentage of those hospitalized suffer lung damage.

https://www.sciencenews.org/article...-some-patients-may-suffer-lasting-lung-damage

"In 70 patients who survived COVID-19 pneumonia, 66 had some level of lung damage visible in CT scans taken before hospital discharge, researchers report March 19 in Radiology. The damage ranged from dense clumps of hardened tissue blocking blood vessels within the tiny air sacs called alveoli, which absorb oxygen, to tissue lesions around the alveoli, Yuhui Wang, a radiologist at Huazhong University of Science and Technology in Wuhan, China, and colleagues found."

"Certain patients are most at risk of developing this type of scarring. They include elderly patients who’ve had severe bouts of COVID-19 pneumonia, patients with other illnesses such as cancer or diabetes and those with other lung conditions caused by smoking or pollution, says Xiaolong Qi of the First Hospital of Lanzhou University in China, where another COVID-19 lung damage study is under way."

"While an estimated 80 percent of COVID-19 cases are mild, the rest display problems ranging from breathing difficulties to respiratory failure (SN: 2/25/20)."
 
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MrX said:
Unfortunately policy makers don't seem to care about facts, either. All of the data, here, indicates that closing bars, gyms and theaters had little, to any effect, yet every daily news story that updates the tally includes boilerplate verbiage about how bad we got, and how the closures made the difference.

One month after we reopened, the first time, the daily case count was 500% higher. Today's cases are 25% lower than the day, one month ago, when bars, gyms and theaters were allowed to reopen. Cases started falling off a cliff almost to the day that the Governor closed those businesses for a second time. The Rt number showed that the spread was receding two weeks prior to those closures.

Our Covid death rate was also substantially higher, during the spike, than other areas of the country. This would seem to support the idea that our June death overage consisted of an elderly population that normally would have been spending the Summer "back East." I suspect a lot of Seniors, here, got lax over Memorial Day (perhaps thinking they were still on "vacation"). The spike in cases and deaths was very steep on the way up, and the way down, without enough restrictions on the population at large to account for it. It's like the whole State became one giant compromised care facility.
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The data on restaurants is far more mixed than you think - and there are many variables (that's the hard part - it's very hard for policy to be quickly written to cover all situations).

Indoor venues of all kinds are associated with known super-spreader events/outbreaks.

Indoor venues are also highly correlated with the non-elderly deaths in UK and USA. And it's almost any kind of indoor venue, with bars topping the list due to lack of social distancing.

That's why NY/NJ and other hard hit places were so hard hit - and that's why we fear the late Fall/Winter, in terms of CoVid. Dry, heated indoor air is not good - makes CoVid linger longer than it does in a moderate, humid climate. Humidity in general drops in the winter.

You are 20X more likely to get CoVid indoors than outdoors. Of all the indoor places, private clinics and doctors' offices are fairly safe, barn-like event venues are fairly safe. Bars are correlated with far more CoVid transmission, which has been documented.

Bars will be hard to open - outdoor patios would be the way to go. AZ has had a LOT of CoVid - so the number of people currently immune is way higher than where I live - that makes a big difference in how long you'll go until the next outbreak. It's not over.
 
tresir2012 said:
Well it works with returning celebrities, so why not regular returning Australians? And the quarantine hotels didn't work anyway. We trust our returning UK citizens to quarantine, when they are returning from countries with high Covid rates. Otherwise there would be no travel anywhere. I disagree that they cannot quarantine with their families. That's what is happening when non travellers are catching Covid. At some point, the government has to start trusting the public.
MOO
Click to expand...

Essentially, it doesn't matter what others think. We do what is best for us. As a nation. The majority of people here are not complaining - when we go out to eat, send our kids to school, go to work, go to footy games, go to the cinema, shop in retail stores - without masks.

The quarantine hotels absolutely DO work. Which is why there is an inquiry into Victoria's hotel quarantine bungle.
We have had thousands of Aussies return, go through hotel quarantine, and not spread the virus.
Just about every week - in my state - we hear about one or two positive cases, but we are told not to worry because they are returned Aussies in supervised medi hotels.

IMO


A woman in her 20s who arrived in South Australia from overseas has tested positive to COVID-19 on her day 12 test after going straight into quarantine on her arrival. The result represents an old infection and she is not considered infectious, posing no wider risk to public health. She is currently in quarantine in a medi-hotel and is not considered an active case. As this is the first time she has returned a positive test, the case has been added to our state tally.
The woman returned a negative day 1 test, however, it is not uncommon for people with an old infection to return both positive and negative results on subsequent tests as the virus continues to shed.
COVID-19 Update 11 September
 
Cool Cats said:
80% damage to heart and lungs? Thought it was not that common. Hasn't been a number of years yet to see but more is coming out about this which is something the young people should be concerned about because no one knows yet what might "catch up" to them later on.
Click to expand...

I'll find the study. I've posted it before (it's a series of studies). Some of the damage is minor - but it is of a type that is often permanent (hardening of the outer wall - the epithelial layer) of the heart. Can't remember the specifics for the lungs.

Since there have been so many more studies this week about longterm effects of CoVid as well as novel effects in the mild-to-moderate case group, I'm going to build a webpage for the links and just link it (I have Tricia's permission to link to my blog - it'll just be links).
 
10ofRods said:
I'll find the study. I've posted it before (it's a series of studies). Some of the damage is minor - but it is of a type that is often permanent (hardening of the outer wall - the epithelial layer) of the heart. Can't remember the specifics for the lungs.

Since there have been so many more studies this week about longterm effects of CoVid as well as novel effects in the mild-to-moderate case group, I'm going to build a webpage for the links and just link it (I have Tricia's permission to link to my blog - it'll just be links).
Click to expand...
Great, thanks....;)
 
SouthAussie said:
Essentially, it doesn't matter what others think. We do what is best for us. As a nation. The majority of people here are not complaining - when we go out to eat, send our kids to school, go to work, go to footy games, go to the cinema, shop in retail stores - without masks.

The quarantine hotels absolutely DO work. Which is why there is an inquiry into Victoria's hotel quarantine bungle.
We have had thousands of Aussies return, go through hotel quarantine, and not spread the virus.
Just about every week - in my state - we hear about one or two positive cases, but we are told not to worry because they are returned Aussies in supervised medi hotels.

IMO


A woman in her 20s who arrived in South Australia from overseas has tested positive to COVID-19 on her day 12 test after going straight into quarantine on her arrival. The result represents an old infection and she is not considered infectious, posing no wider risk to public health. She is currently in quarantine in a medi-hotel and is not considered an active case. As this is the first time she has returned a positive test, the case has been added to our state tally.
The woman returned a negative day 1 test, however, it is not uncommon for people with an old infection to return both positive and negative results on subsequent tests as the virus continues to shed.
COVID-19 Update 11 September
Click to expand...

It is Australian citizens overseas and some of your politicians complaining about it though, not others.
 
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