Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #126

[Falling Down]

Here is a photo of the drop off spot from November 2019. The red barrier now prevents vehicular traffic entering the trail. But that barrier not there in February 2017. The aluminum gate was there, and open apparently dawn to dusk. Smack behind where this picture was taken is the Mears property and a small parking area near a red-roofed barn. I've heard that parking area is now closed.

imgur.com

I'll include the reverse view also, from the trailhead. From red gate to trailhead is roughly 240 feet and slightly uphill.

imgur.com

My hunch for some time now about BG's whereabouts when the girls were dropped off is he was to the left in the image of the gates, looking north towards the road.

I think he was between there and the park bench down the trail a ways, he needed to see the trailhead, which like you say is right near the parking area. Or BG was at the park bench.

JMO

 

[sunshineray]

I still think there is a property issue that could be part of the murders. Not even that the girls knew about possible corruption or sketchy property transfers, but that a murder on that land would render it useful for certain purposes.

What possible purposes would that be? I'm stumped.

 

[sunshineray]

It might be human nature to spread the news but I’m 100% certain we all know not to believe everything we read on FB.

And considering there’s been no arrest, nobody who sighted anyone in the area that day can be 100% certain who they saw was involved in committing the murders. Furthermore possible or hopeful witnesses blabbing can be extremely counterproductive to LE asking for tips — if for example somebody who might offer a valuable tip reads a supposed witness experience and discounts their information because it doesn’t correlate to what or who the witness claims to have seen. JMO

I'm not arguing your points, they are valid. I'm just saying not all behave in the way they should or think about the consequences of what they do ahead of doing it.

 

[margarita25]

Maybe one day, image technology will improve, and there can be a clearer image of BG released.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

In another statement that was made during the April 2019 Press Conference , D. Carter made these statements:

"We likely have interviewed you or someone close to you. We know that this is about power to you. And you want to know what we know. One day, you will. Only a coward would do such a thing."

THIS, in my opinion, may be the most loaded statement of the press conference.
1~Did he(they) interview the Killer previously?
Did he (they) do this in the early days of the investigation?

* I believe yes. They did. They have. I do not believe that it was someone "close" to the killer specifically..although they may have interviewed close family and friends as well. THIS seems like a way to say "We know that we not only have you on record, but also someone that YOU care about."*

2~What does "This is about power to you" suggest?

*This signifies a possible sexual assault OR an intent to sexually assault the victims.*

3~Stating that this killer is a coward signifies what? Do you think this was just a way to inflame this killer, hoping it would get a reaction? Was it just a personal dig? Or is this statement alluding to the fact that the killer is hiding behind what he does or who he knows? Or is it something else?

* I do not know for certain how I feel on this one, except to say..maybe all of these things? I can't shake the fact that D.Carter knew he was taunting this killer*

* My opinions and my Observations.*

At the time of this 2019 press conference, like most people, I was riveted by the drama of it all. I was certain an arrest was imminent! Now, a year and a half later, I think it meant little then and means less now.
LE sprinkled some supposed hard info in to sweeten things. A car at the CPS building!(Was someone really suppose to remember it two years later?) Video from Libby’s video!(Don’t blink, you’ll miss it) More audio!(That one extra word really helps) The main show though was Carter’s performance which I believe was an attempt to push the killer into doing something reckless or stupid and that that would cause him to maybe show himself to LE.
Didn’t work.

 

[somequestions]

At the time of this 2019 press conference, like most people, I was riveted by the drama of it all. I was certain an arrest was imminent! Now, a year and a half later, I think it meant little then and means less now.
LE sprinkled some supposed hard info in to sweeten things. A car at the CPS building!(Was someone really suppose to remember it two years later?) Video from Libby’s video!(Don’t blink, you’ll miss it) More audio!(That one extra word really helps) The main show though was Carter’s performance which I believe was an attempt to push the killer into doing something reckless or stupid and that that would cause him to maybe show himself to LE.
Didn’t work.

I never thought an arrest was imminent after the April 2019 press conference. The reason was that the second sketch released looked nothing like the man on the bridge from Liberty German's phone video. I could not understand the approach that was being taken by LE. Did they now believe the man in Liberty German's phone video was not the killer? Or did they decide that the video was so blurry and useless that the eyewitness information held way more weight than anything they had from the video on Liberty German's phone? If we look at the video in just the right way once the man in the second sketch was found we would see it was him all along.

A sketch is not a photograph. It is kind of like saying a suspect has brownish blondish reddish dark hair. Then when you find the suspect and they end up having light dark hair you can say you were right all along.

The irony in this case for LE is that Liberty German's phone video, while helpful, could also come back to haunt them later on, even when the case is solved. Without the phone video, I think the approach taken would be more acceptable. But just think if this man on the bridge is 50 or 60 years old, completely different face, and had a vehicle that could not have been parked anywhere near the Monon High Bridge trail without being seen.

Another irony in this case is that as long as the case remains unsolved it will appear LE is correct. There is nothing to suggest they are not correct as long as it remains unsolved and people follow the information that has been put out. The feeling I have always had is that this case could end up being used as a case study in profiling at the FBI academy at Quantico where the lecturer begins:

"Sometimes even with 50,000 tips, numerous investigators, and theories surrounding the case, the profile can be wrong. And in this particular case in Delphi, IN, it was wayyy wrong."

This is not to say that profiles are not correct. I think in many cases they are correct, but not in this case. This is what I think. But until the case is solved, we just don't know.

 

[Ozoner]

I never thought an arrest was imminent after the April 2019 press conference. The reason was that the second sketch released looked nothing like the man on the bridge from Liberty German's phone video. I could not understand the approach that was being taken by LE. Did they now believe the man in Liberty German's phone video was not the killer? Or did they decide that the video was so blurry and useless that the eyewitness information held way more weight than anything they had from the video on Liberty German's phone? If we look at the video in just the right way once the man in the second sketch was found we would see it was him all along.

A sketch is not a photograph. It is kind of like saying a suspect has brownish blondish reddish dark hair. Then when you find the suspect and they end up having light dark hair you can say you were right all along.

The irony in this case for LE is that Liberty German's phone video, while helpful, could also come back to haunt them later on, even when the case is solved. Without the phone video, I think the approach taken would be more acceptable. But just think if this man on the bridge is 50 or 60 years old, completely different face, and had a vehicle that could not have been parked anywhere near the Monon High Bridge trail without being seen.

Another irony in this case is that as long as the case remains unsolved it will appear LE is correct. There is nothing to suggest they are not correct as long as it remains unsolved and people follow the information that has been put out. The feeling I have always had is that this case could end up being used as a case study in profiling at the FBI academy at Quantico where the lecturer begins:

"Sometimes even with 50,000 tips, numerous investigators, and theories surrounding the case, the profile can be wrong. And in this particular case in Delphi, IN, it was wayyy wrong."

This is not to say that profiles are not correct. I think in many cases they are correct, but not in this case. This is what I think. But until the case is solved, we just don't know.

The FBI hasn't released a complete profile so far as I know. I think that about all they've said is that BG was 16—38 at the time of the murders and that he has some connection to the Delphi area. That isn't much of a profile.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

I am interested in knowing what y’all think.
If there was some Delphi Case Fact Machine that could answer any question about the case(but not who the killer was), and you could ask it five questions about the case...what would those questions be?
For me, I would ask these questions:
1) How did the killer leave the area after the murders? Route and method.
2) What led LE to get a search warrant only days after the murders for the property on Bicycle Bridge Road?
3) Exactly how long is the video/audio in Libby’s phone?
4) Why did LE change direction in April 2019?
5) Give a general description of the crime scene.
What would y’all ask?

 

[Ozoner]

I am interested in knowing what y’all think.
If there was some Delphi Case Fact Machine that could answer any question about the case(but not who the killer was), and you could ask it five questions about the case...what would those questions be?
For me, I would ask these questions:
1) How did the killer leave the area after the murders? Route and method.
2) What led LE to get a search warrant only days after the murders for the property on Bicycle Bridge Road?
3) Exactly how long is the video/audio in Libby’s phone?
4) Why did LE change direction in April 2019?
5) Give a general description of the crime scene.
What would y’all ask?

1. What was the cause of death?
2. Were the girls sexually assaulted?
3. What signatures were present at the crime scene?
4. Has LE identified any nuclear DNA samples thought to be from the killer?
5. Were the girls running away from the killer, or did he lead them all the way to the place where they were murdered?

 

[MistyWaters]

I never thought an arrest was imminent after the April 2019 press conference. The reason was that the second sketch released looked nothing like the man on the bridge from Liberty German's phone video. I could not understand the approach that was being taken by LE. Did they now believe the man in Liberty German's phone video was not the killer? Or did they decide that the video was so blurry and useless that the eyewitness information held way more weight than anything they had from the video on Liberty German's phone? If we look at the video in just the right way once the man in the second sketch was found we would see it was him all along.

A sketch is not a photograph. It is kind of like saying a suspect has brownish blondish reddish dark hair. Then when you find the suspect and they end up having light dark hair you can say you were right all along.

The irony in this case for LE is that Liberty German's phone video, while helpful, could also come back to haunt them later on, even when the case is solved. Without the phone video, I think the approach taken would be more acceptable. But just think if this man on the bridge is 50 or 60 years old, completely different face, and had a vehicle that could not have been parked anywhere near the Monon High Bridge trail without being seen.

Another irony in this case is that as long as the case remains unsolved it will appear LE is correct. There is nothing to suggest they are not correct as long as it remains unsolved and people follow the information that has been put out. The feeling I have always had is that this case could end up being used as a case study in profiling at the FBI academy at Quantico where the lecturer begins:

"Sometimes even with 50,000 tips, numerous investigators, and theories surrounding the case, the profile can be wrong. And in this particular case in Delphi, IN, it was wayyy wrong."

This is not to say that profiles are not correct. I think in many cases they are correct, but not in this case. This is what I think. But until the case is solved, we just don't know.

I recall when the first photo was released, then the second, there was discussion as to whether it was the same person in both photos. IMO the photo on the right looks like a younger person than the man on the right but it’s obvious he’s one and the same. The problem with enhancing long distance, poor quality photos is there’s only so much to work with and perhaps the reason Disney and NASA were involved with the task as they are independent of LE.


Three Years Later: Everything we know about the murders of Libby German & Abby Williams in Delphi

While a defence lawyer might try to use the photos or video to acquit, even if an arrest was made tomorrow, the suspect looking exactly the same is unlikely even if the face was clearer. By the time this case went to trial it would still be at least another couple years out.

I think LE released the photos mainly as a tool in hopes of it prompting a good tip involving knowledgeable information in support of their own investigative work - ‘the piece of the puzzle’. As the photos and videos were admittedly enhanced and clarified - altered from the original state of Libby’s video - their evidentiary value is questionable IMO.

 

[TheVisual]

I am interested in knowing what y’all think.
If there was some Delphi Case Fact Machine that could answer any question about the case(but not who the killer was), and you could ask it five questions about the case...what would those questions be?
For me, I would ask these questions:
1) How did the killer leave the area after the murders? Route and method.
2) What led LE to get a search warrant only days after the murders for the property on Bicycle Bridge Road?
3) Exactly how long is the video/audio in Libby’s phone?
4) Why did LE change direction in April 2019?
5) Give a general description of the crime scene.
What would y’all ask?

1) a Profile, (what type of person are THEY looking for because of the profile)?
2) What signatures?
3) Cause of death (weren't they looking for a certain kind of knife(or hearsay?)
4) Any items missing(trophies)?
5) Have they altered the video in any way(blurring areas around him)?

Some of these may give someone incite into him as a person. Did he gift someone a piece of jewelry? Some habit he has with others? Angry at the world? Women?

 

[Yemelyan]

I never thought an arrest was imminent after the April 2019 press conference. The reason was that the second sketch released looked nothing like the man on the bridge from Liberty German's phone video. I could not understand the approach that was being taken by LE. Did they now believe the man in Liberty German's phone video was not the killer? Or did they decide that the video was so blurry and useless that the eyewitness information held way more weight than anything they had from the video on Liberty German's phone? If we look at the video in just the right way once the man in the second sketch was found we would see it was him all along.

A sketch is not a photograph. It is kind of like saying a suspect has brownish blondish reddish dark hair. Then when you find the suspect and they end up having light dark hair you can say you were right all along.

Snipped by me.

DC famously commented about the sketches in this case, "a sketch is not a photograph." Every time I hear people say the sketch doesn't look like Libby's video, or speculating that since the NBG and OBG sketches don't seem to "look" alike (to us non-witnesses), therefore the OBG sketch must be someone who came forward and was cleared, I cringe.

I think LE should have made it more clear to the public that a composite sketch is not only not a photograph, but it's also not even a rendering of a real person...it's a jumble of facial characteristics assembled together in the hopes that something...the large nose, the weird hairline, the scar....causes someone out there to say, wow, I know a person who has this feature AND has other characteristics or known facts that leads me to believe he could have done this crime.

These sketches aren't drawings of the man who committed the Delphi murders. They're even less than that. They're drawings of imperfect memories.

I could go into all the details about why people can't recall facial features perfectly but it's too much to write here. Instead the question needs to be, what is the point of releasing a sketch since it's likely to be inaccurate?

You have to understand the point of the composite sketch isn't to construct a perfect portrait of the perpetrator. The point of police sketches is to publicize crimes, attract leading clues and get the public looking out for suspicious persons. A police composite sketch is almost like a caricature drawing. Its job is to highlight one or two standout features in the hope that those features jog a memory. Not to give us an exact likeness of a murderer.

I think LE released the sketch in the Delphi case to try to attract more info from potential witnesses who may not have realized that they saw suspicious activity near the trail or in town/heading out of town that day. I don't think they released the sketch so we could comb through old Delphi high school yearbooks finding "matches" and other things that have been done. JMO

 

[Ozoner]

Every time I hear people say the sketch doesn't look like Libby's video, or speculating that since the NBG and OBG sketches don't seem to "look" alike (to us non-witnesses), therefore the OBG sketch must be someone who came forward and was cleared, I cringe.

I don't know why that would make you cringe; LE has made it clear that the person depicted in the original sketch is not the same person as the one depicted in the second sketch and is no longer a person of interest. It is therefore quite likely that they have identified the person from the first sketch.

 

[sunshineray]

I don't know why that would make you cringe; LE has made it clear that the person depicted in the original sketch is not the same person as the one depicted in the second sketch and is no longer a person of interest. It is therefore quite likely that they have identified the person from the first sketch.

Then the head ISP officer stated on a few occasions that the killer could be a combination of the two sketches or it will turn out he is a combination.

 

[Yemelyan]

I don't know why that would make you cringe; LE has made it clear that the person depicted in the original sketch is not the same person as the one depicted in the second sketch and is no longer a person of interest. It is therefore quite likely that they have identified the person from the first sketch.

Because, as I stated in the rest of my post, neither sketch is really a "person," it's more like collection of features that were remembered by a witness. It's not a mug shot.

Stating that they don't want the public to focus on the first sketch anymore because the features depicted are no longer believed to be representative of a person of interest is not the same as saying "we found this exact person and cleared him."

 

[EmmaRose]

Snipped by me.

DC famously commented about the sketches in this case, "a sketch is not a photograph." Every time I hear people say the sketch doesn't look like Libby's video, or speculating that since the NBG and OBG sketches don't seem to "look" alike (to us non-witnesses), therefore the OBG sketch must be someone who came forward and was cleared, I cringe.

I think LE should have made it more clear to the public that a composite sketch is not only not a photograph, but it's also not even a rendering of a real person...it's a jumble of facial characteristics assembled together in the hopes that something...the large nose, the weird hairline, the scar....causes someone out there to say, wow, I know a person who has this feature AND has other characteristics or known facts that leads me to believe he could have done this crime.

These sketches aren't drawings of the man who committed the Delphi murders. They're even less than that. They're drawings of imperfect memories.

I could go into all the details about why people can't recall facial features perfectly but it's too much to write here. Instead the question needs to be, what is the point of releasing a sketch since it's likely to be inaccurate?

You have to understand the point of the composite sketch isn't to construct a perfect portrait of the perpetrator. The point of police sketches is to publicize crimes, attract leading clues and get the public looking out for suspicious persons. A police composite sketch is almost like a caricature drawing. Its job is to highlight one or two standout features in the hope that those features jog a memory. Not to give us an exact likeness of a murderer.

I think LE released the sketch in the Delphi case to try to attract more info from potential witnesses who may not have realized that they saw suspicious activity near the trail or in town/heading out of town that day. I don't think they released the sketch so we could comb through old Delphi high school yearbooks finding "matches" and other things that have been done. JMO

Snipped by me.

DC famously commented about the sketches in this case, "a sketch is not a photograph." Every time I hear people say the sketch doesn't look like Libby's video, or speculating that since the NBG and OBG sketches don't seem to "look" alike (to us non-witnesses), therefore the OBG sketch must be someone who came forward and was cleared, I cringe.

I think LE should have made it more clear to the public that a composite sketch is not only not a photograph, but it's also not even a rendering of a real person...it's a jumble of facial characteristics assembled together in the hopes that something...the large nose, the weird hairline, the scar....causes someone out there to say, wow, I know a person who has this feature AND has other characteristics or known facts that leads me to believe he could have done this crime.

These sketches aren't drawings of the man who committed the Delphi murders. They're even less than that. They're drawings of imperfect memories.

I could go into all the details about why people can't recall facial features perfectly but it's too much to write here. Instead the question needs to be, what is the point of releasing a sketch since it's likely to be inaccurate?

You have to understand the point of the composite sketch isn't to construct a perfect portrait of the perpetrator. The point of police sketches is to publicize crimes, attract leading clues and get the public looking out for suspicious persons. A police composite sketch is almost like a caricature drawing. Its job is to highlight one or two standout features in the hope that those features jog a memory. Not to give us an exact likeness of a murderer.

I think LE released the sketch in the Delphi case to try to attract more info from potential witnesses who may not have realized that they saw suspicious activity near the trail or in town/heading out of town that day. I don't think they released the sketch so we could comb through old Delphi high school yearbooks finding "matches" and other things that have been done. JMO

Great post, as usual.

 

[absentia]

I did some research about a year ago about the money trail with the park area around deer creek. It was an ongoing issue among some residents since at least 2015, and we had pondered about the murders being a motive to make that land (and the bridge? - I can't remember details now) into a dedicated park. I couldn't quite figure out what the ultimate goal was, but some other WS members had a better idea of the rationale than I did. One of the landowners near the murders was one of the people involved (I can't remember if they were for or against it), and some city council members were involved. In fact there was some sketchy land transfers of areas adjacent to deer creek by Delphi city council members since 2015.

What possible purposes would that be? I'm stumped.

 

[somequestions]

The FBI hasn't released a complete profile so far as I know. I think that about all they've said is that BG was 16—38 at the time of the murders and that he has some connection to the Delphi area. That isn't much of a profile.

You are correct. As far as I know there has been no official profile released. But I do think people are thinking a certain way about this case based on the sketches and information that has been released. In the press release of the second sketch, it states that the sketch is the face of the man who murdered Abigail Williams and Liberty German.

I think people are not very open minded about sketches. If they see that their next door neighbor looks like the sketch, they may be inclined to turn him in. Unfortunately people tend to just believe things without questioning the information.

I could be totally wrong about everything that I think. Maybe other people can actually "see" the second sketch features within the Liberty German video of the man on the bridge. I don't see it.

So I will feel kind of foolish if the killer ends up being from Delphi and is a young man between the age of 18-40 at the time of the crime. Most places are known because a person has been there before. But you could really say that about anyone who knows any sort of place. So I suppose the killer will have lived, worked, or visited Delphi at some point before the crimes.

I only wonder if this case ends up going on for 5 or 10 or 20 years if people will still be inclined to think that it was the man in the second sketch(whoever that person may appear to be to whoever might know them). I keep wondering if people who do shows or podcasts will be inclined to put up that second sketch with the video. And people will still be inclined to think it must be a young man because LE says it is.

It would be sad if 20 years from now people are still chasing a sketch. And until the person in the sketch is identified we will never know if LE was right or wrong.

 

[Ozoner]

Because, as I stated in the rest of my post, neither sketch is really a "person," it's more like collection of features that were remembered by a witness. It's not a mug shot.

Stating that they don't want the public to focus on the first sketch anymore because the features depicted are no longer believed to be representative of a person of interest is not the same as saying "we found this exact person and cleared him."

They've said more than that, though.
2 Delphi sketches are different people, first man no longer person of interest

 

[Charlot123]

I am interested in knowing what y’all think.
If there was some Delphi Case Fact Machine that could answer any question about the case(but not who the killer was), and you could ask it five questions about the case...what would those questions be?
For me, I would ask these questions:
1) How did the killer leave the area after the murders? Route and method.
2) What led LE to get a search warrant only days after the murders for the property on Bicycle Bridge Road?
3) Exactly how long is the video/audio in Libby’s phone?
4) Why did LE change direction in April 2019?
5) Give a general description of the crime scene.
What would y’all ask?

1) what was the motive for the murders?
2) was/were DNA/DNAs from the crime scene submitted to the Parabon?
3) <modsnip>
4) did Libby have her own “cloud”, or, given that she was only 14 and on household calling plan, share the cloud with someone else?
5) the full list of people searching for the girls on February 13-14, with times of signing in/out