Mexico Unidentified US-Mexico Border Project

Dylansmom08

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I have noticed the large number of unidentified people found by USBP that have Mexico IDs with their name and picture yet they are still unidentified. I have been working on making posters for them to share on Mexico missing persons sites on FB and other places to help get their faces out there and maybe we can get some of them back to their families. If anyone would like to help I am starting with the ones that have pictures I will post the ones that I am working on right now if anyone wants to add to the list please feel free to jump in and help. Thanks

Edit:

Migrants & Suspected Migrants UIDs - Google My Maps - Created by @ghostINshell
Here is the link for the google maps I have created for the migrants and suspected to be migrants.
I divided the UIDs up via state. Unfortunately, I was not able to add a layer for each and every state so, I put the states that have very few in the "Other States" section. Also sadly, I wasn't able to post each and every migrant on the map.
 
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The National Missing and Unidentified Persons System (NamUs)
July 13, 2020 “Pedro Lopez Gomez” Mexico Voter ID card found with body (photo)
The National Missing and Unidentified Persons System (NamUs)
April 2, 2020 “Daniel Diaz Reyes” possible name (photo)
The National Missing and Unidentified Persons System (NamUs)
January 10,2020 “Anatolio Garcia” from Oaxaca, Mexico (photo)
The National Missing and Unidentified Persons System (NamUs)
December 7,2019 “Dario Diaz Smith” wearing ‘Atlas Zorros’ soccer club socks Jalisco, Mexico (club location)
The National Missing and Unidentified Persons System (NamUs)
October 30, 2019 “Entzin Belisario Gomez” Mexico voter ID card found in wallet (photo)
The National Missing and Unidentified Persons System (NamUs)
October 1,2019 “Alberto Kevin Martinez Vela” Mexico voter ID card found as well as a mugshot from border patrol he was previously picked up and returned to Mexico.
The National Missing and Unidentified Persons System (NamUs)
October 2,2018 “Belisario Diaz Gomez” Mexico voter ID card as well as USBP paperwork (photo)
The National Missing and Unidentified Persons System (NamUs)
July 22,2018 “Gerardo Gilbon Hernandez” (photos)
The National Missing and Unidentified Persons System (NamUs)
July 7,2018 “Amelin Gomez Perez” (no photo)
The National Missing and Unidentified Persons System (NamUs)
September 14,2017 “Sebastian Gomez Hernandez” or “Francisco Pablo Francisco” (first name Mexico Voter ID card second name fingerprint match to name given to USBP at earlier time) multiple photos
 
Would help to see their voter ID card, to contact their families. Their address should be in it. So sad :(
NamUs doesn't show their card it has everything blacked out except the picture. I was told that is for privacy concern but I feel like if they are no long living they wouldn't mind us seeing their address if it helps to get them back to their family.
 
I have noticed this too! And it has always bothered me. Like we know who this person likely was but for some reason it is not confirmed. I heard that it is because of a communication problem between the US and the Mexican Embassy or something similar. Like they don't respond back. I have seen that a large amount of these cases are in Arizona and New Mexico.

I found a few in my thread: Violence against migrant workers/unidentifed or murdered

I made the thread after noticing a high volume of unidentified persons in my local North Carolina that were believed to be migrant workers. It upset me a great deal.

Here is the list of those I found with a known name or ID from that thread:

This is just a personal observation but it really bothers me. Has anyone else noticed that the Hispanic unidentified on NamUs are more likely to have a public graphic morgue photo? I don't like it one bit! Is there a reason for that?
 
There's a lady on Twitter who shares missing people from Mexico. If you're on Twitter her @ is missing_bc. There's also the La Alameda accounts. You might want to contact them about how to best get this information in front of the families.
 
Wonderful project!! Please let me know if I can help.

I performed a search on NamUs with the term “Mexico” in the circumstances description. There were 309 results! I narrowed it down to only those with photos and either a living photo, possible name, or otherwise identifiable piece of information/personal possession. And I worked my way backwards chronologically. This list is certainly not comprehensive. Hope this helps!
The National Missing and Unidentified Persons System (NamUs)
The National Missing and Unidentified Persons System (NamUs)
May 18, 1980 - “Rodriguez” (Decedent was robbed by several individuals who were later apprehended and sentenced. Decedent was most likely an illegal immigrant. Decedent may have a wife and child in Mexico.Decedent may have last name of "Rodriguez)

The National Missing and Unidentified Persons System (NamUs)
October 18, 1980 - “Rudolpho” (Decedent lived in Tara Park, third trailor on the right off Lake Trafford Road with a Francisco and Jose Via. According to Mr. Via, "Rudolpho" had come to Immokalee on September 21, 1980 along with 12 other Mexican males, from Dallas, Texas. Further, "Rudolpho" has family in Mexico, but also had an uncle in Dallas and another Houston, Texas. "Rudolpho" moved from Tara Park to the Labor Camp two weeks prior to death.)

The National Missing and Unidentified Persons System (NamUs)
February 24, 1995 - Many aliases (The tattoos located on the victim suggest he has ties to Venadillo, Mexico.)

The National Missing and Unidentified Persons System (NamUs)
July 24, 1995 - Several aliases (Recent fingerprint match by FBI under the NamUs Initiative. Decedent reportedly was a known cocaine smuggler-dealer who was deported to Mexico on 26 April 1995. An outstanding warrant had been issued for decedent.)

The National Missing and Unidentified Persons System (NamUs)
August 9, 1995 - Necklace with “Odlion” on it. (The deceased was a pedestrian who was struck by a vehicle that fled the scene. Witnesses reported that the decedent indicated that he was from Mexico.)

The National Missing and Unidentified Persons System (NamUs)
May 15, 2000 - (He is believed to have drowned after crossing the U.S.-Mexico Border illegally. What appear to be a Graduation ring CLASS of 80-83 "ESC.TEC.COM.PROF.ABELINO BOLLANOS" was found w/ the decedent)

The National Missing and Unidentified Persons System (NamUs)
June 6, 2000 - “Juan Marquez” (Document found on decedent. "Juan (?) Marquez" Entered June 01 2000 and left June 04 2000)

The National Missing and Unidentified Persons System (NamUs)
July 7, 2000 - “Rigoberto Chabes Gomes” (Photo of couple with child and the name written on the back)

The National Missing and Unidentified Persons System (NamUs)
August 6, 2000 - (Possible living photo and notepad with names, numbers, and/or address written on it)

The National Missing and Unidentified Persons System (NamUs)
April 30, 2001 - “Oscar Figeroa Barajas” (Decedent was struck by a motor-vehicle in Agua Prieta, Mexico, on 29 April 2001 and was transported to the University Medical Center in Tucson, where he later died on May 1, 2001. Possible name association of Oscar Figeroa Barajas, with a possible DOB of 1 January 1983.)

The National Missing and Unidentified Persons System (NamUs)
June 20, 2001 - “Lorenzo Diaz Garcia” Living mugshot (Decedent found in remote desert area. DNA results match to alias name of Lorenzo Diaz Garcia, DOB 10 August 1955, who possibly lived in Santa Ana, California. Additional alias names used include Lencho Garcia, Lorenzo Garcia, Lorenzo Diaz, and Lencito Garcia. Decedent was deported to Mexico by USBP in 2001. BTB)

The National Missing and Unidentified Persons System (NamUs)
September 8, 2002 - “DH” (Found deceased in hotel room by manager, whom the decedent had told that he was seeing a doctor in Nogales, Mexico regarding head surgery. Decedent had stolen the identity of "Edward C" of St. Petersburg, FL and was carrying an ID card with the stolen identity information. Recent fingerprint match to DH, a name that has yet to be verified. AAA)

The National Missing and Unidentified Persons System (NamUs)
September 20, 2002 - “Johanna Contreras Osorio” (Decedent was driving a stolen car at a speed above the posted limit and lost control of the vehicle. Fingerprints have been matched to a 1994 Nogales Police Department arrest record of a man who said he was from Sinaloa, Mexico, and who provided the name Jorge Bernal Rosas. A Western Union transfer, to Johanna Contreras Osorio, was found with decedent. Recent match in AFIS to same record. AAA)

The National Missing and Unidentified Persons System (NamUs)
February 12, 2004 - “Pedro Rodriguez Reyes” Living photo (Decedent found along roadway by passerby. UPDATE, 16 April 2014: DNA analyses reveals that decedent may be Pedro Rodriguez Reyes, possibly from Guerrero, Mexico. This information is presently being confirmed by the Mexican Consulate. BTB)

The National Missing and Unidentified Persons System (NamUs)
June 8, 2004 - “Oliber Santiz” (The decedent was riding a bicycle when he was struck by multiple motor vehicles. He died two days later at the Shock Trauma Center at the University of Maryland Medical Center. His last known address was 16 Colonial Road, Bel Air, Maryland. He used the name "Oliber Santiz" and date of birth of April 6, 1981. His roommate advised he was from Mexico.)

The National Missing and Unidentified Persons System (NamUs)
July 18, 2004 - “Antonia Dominguez Juarez” or “Maria Eugenia Martinez” (Jane Doe #10-04 was a passenger (1 of 10 occupants) in van transporting persons from Mexico which crashed while travelling westbound along Interstate 40 Freeway on July 18, 2004. The woman was in possession of a fake Birth Certificate (per Mexican consulate) in the name of "Antonia Dominguez Juarez, DOB: 05/22/76, age 28." Other names developed by people inquiring: "Maria Eugenia Martinez" (06/25/65), or possibly a woman from Guatamala. Per one passenger, most of the people in the van were from Santa Lucia Del Camino, OAX, Mexico. Nine of the occupants were picked up in Phoenix Arizona.)

The National Missing and Unidentified Persons System (NamUs)
December 7, 2004 - “Florentino or Alejandro Martinez” Living photo (Body found by Border Patrol in Lyle canyon in the Huachuca Mountains. Recent FP hit (5/2017) to an individual who provided law enforcement with the following unverified names 'Alejandro Martinez' aka 'Florentino Martinez' AAA)

The National Missing and Unidentified Persons System (NamUs)
August 7, 2008 - (Decedent was an occupant in a motor vehicle accident, a single SUV vehicle roll-over causing 9 fatalities (8 victims were identified: 5 were Salvadorans, 2 were Mexicans, and 1 was Honduran). Decedent used alias Jose Alvarez Lopez from Culiacon, Mexico, with DOB of 10-03-1983, however Mexican authorities have confirmed that this person does not exist. Therefore, the name is an alias or decedent is not a Mexican National. This individual had been previously apprehended July 2008 AAA)

The National Missing and Unidentified Persons System (NamUs)
February 22, 2008 - “Martin Cardenas Aguilar Salmiron” Living photo (Remains found in a desert canyon. Recent match in AFIS to a record under Martin Cardenas Aguilar Salmiron, from Chihuahua, Mexico. Alias name of Martin Aguilar Gutierrez. Neither the nationality or names have been verified. AAA)

The National Missing and Unidentified Persons System (NamUs)
October 7, 2009 - “Vicente Toledo” Living photo (Decedent was a day laborer working with two others when he collapsed to the ground and was transported to the hospital. Coworkers stated that they did not know his name, only that he may have been from Vera Cruz, Mexico. Decedent used an alias of "Vincente Pineda Toledo." Recent AFIS fingerprint match to Vincente Toledo. None of this self-reported information has been verified by NOK or the Mexican Consulate. AAA)

The National Missing and Unidentified Persons System (NamUs)
July 13, 2010 - “Oswaldo Angulo Martinez” Living photo (Decomposed remains found by U.S. Customs Agents in the desert. Recent hit in AFIS to a record under the name Oswaldo Angulo Martinez, possibly from Sonora, Mexico. Name and nationality have yet to be verified. AAA)

The National Missing and Unidentified Persons System (NamUs)
June 15, 2011 - “Rosalia Mayolgo Silva” Living photo (The remains were recovered in an area known for migrant activity. Recent DNA match under the name Rosalio Mayorga Silva (AKA Ramon Torres Torres. Rosalio Mayorga Silva, Juan Garcia, Marcelo Garcia, Rafael Silva, and Silvestre Arraola). None of these names have been confirmed. Nayarit, Mexico is the suspected place of origin. Bracelet with the name Cora on it.)

The National Missing and Unidentified Persons System (NamUs)
July 30, 2011 - “Ernesto Torres” (The decedent was found in a field by EMS. He had been seen a short time earlier in the same vicinity. It appears he may have been homeless. He had the name Ernesto Torres 11/07/48 on a food pantry card, but it is unknown if that is his name/dob. All leads for that name/DOB so far have been closed-prints, photos, etc. Reportedly, he may have been from Tampico Mexico.)

The National Missing and Unidentified Persons System (NamUs)
July 15, 2012 - “Armando Lopez-Rivera” Living photo (Mummified remains found in remote desert area. Fingerprints matched to USBP record, including multiple arrests and under several names, including Armando Lopez-Rivera. None of the names are verified. He was released from US prison in May 2012 and was deported to Mexico on 17 June 2012. AAA)

The National Missing and Unidentified Persons System (NamUs)
May 8, 2013 - “Romairo Robledo Bariaz” Living photo (Decedent found on floor of residence reportedly used by smugglers. He is believed to be an undocumented border crosser who was apprehended by USBP in 2008 and at that time provided the name Romairo Robledo Bariaz. He told USBP he was from Mexico, but the Mexican Consulate has not been able to confirm the name or nationality. Recent match in AFIS to same record. AAA)

The National Missing and Unidentified Persons System (NamUs)
May 9, 2013 - “Romairo Perez Morales” Living photo (Decedent found in residence following a report of domestic violence. Fingerprints have been matched to a USBP record under the name "Romairo Perez Morales" who reported his residence in Chiapas, Mexico. AAA)

The National Missing and Unidentified Persons System (NamUs)
June 21, 2013 - “Roberto Portino Calderon” Living photo (Decomposed body found in known drug smuggling corridor along with another adult male, who had a similar date of death (See UP case 12292). Decedent had two ID cards recovered from him in the name of Roberto Portino Calderon from Morelos, Mexico. Alias names include Roberto Fortino Caldero. Real name is believed to be Roberto Fortino Calderon, from Puebla, Mexico. BTB AAA)

The National Missing and Unidentified Persons System (NamUs)
August 10, 2013 - “Eduardo Garcia Morales” Living photo (The subject was found by Homeland Security agents that were patrolling a desert area near Gila Bend Arizona. He is believed to be an immigrant who was traveling on foot to the United States. He was in the possession of multiple Mexican identification cards bearing the name Eduardo Morales Ponce as well as documentation from a Mexican prison regarding an arrest on 3/17/2013 in Mexico. ******* The decedent has been identified by fingerprints as Eduardo Garcia Morales. The name has yet to be verified.)

The National Missing and Unidentified Persons System (NamUs)
October 29, 2015 - “Antonio” (Oneida County Sheriff’s Office investigated an apparent suicide that occurred on 10/29/2015. The victim is only known as “El Mechanica” or “El Mechanico,” and is possibly a homeless man from the El Mirage and Phoenix, Arizona areas. He may also be from Durango, Mexico. He was picked up in El Mirage, AZ on 10/23/2015 and brought to Idaho to harvest sagebrush seed. It is possible his first name is Antonio.)

https://www.namus.gov/UnidentifiedPersons/Case#/15182?nav
December 7, 2015 - “Abdel Carbajal Alvinez” Living photo (Incomplete skeletal remains discovered by USBP. Also found was a worker's card under the name "Abel Perez Carbagal" who may have been from from Guerrero, Mexico. Recent possible match to a record under the name Abdel Carbajal Alvinez (AKA Bladimir Calleja Medina). Possibly from Jalisco, Mexico. BTB)

https://www.namus.gov/UnidentifiedPersons/Case#/17742?nav
December 5, 2016 - Tattoos: “Zacatecas”, Possible initials RB (The decedent was found inside an empty tank rail car which was parked in a rail yard. The train car had been traveling from Guadalajara, Mexico to Houston, TX. )

https://www.namus.gov/UnidentifiedPersons/Case#/17289?nav
July 19, 2017 - (Unknown Hispanic male was brought into Calvary Hospital where he was pronounced dead. He gave his name as "Juan Rios Rivera" and said that he was homeless. Fingerprints came back to "Bernando Hernandez" and "Antonio Hernandez Vital". Date of birth in 1971. None of these names have been confirmed and no next of kin has been located. He is possibly from Mexico.)

https://www.namus.gov/UnidentifiedPersons/Case#/59928?nav
October 3, 2018 - “Javier Valencia” Living photo (The male was found face down at a residence and was decomposing. There was nothing suspicious about this death. The individual was known as "Javier" and possibly had a last name "Valencia/Valensia". There are no known family members. An acquaintance thought he may have been from Oaxaca, Mexico.)

https://www.namus.gov/UnidentifiedPersons/Case#/55648?nav
January 28, 2019 - Several aliases (Unknown male found under the Gowanus Expressway, where he was known to live. Possible names of: Alfonso Meneces, Alfanzo Manasas, Alphonso Meneses, Adolfo Mendez, Alfonso Menses, or Alfonso Zacaula. None of these names could be verified. Possibly from Mexico.)
https://www.namus.gov/UnidentifiedPersons/Case#/68704?nav
January 17, 2020 - “Eduardo Flores Medez” (This individual was discovered in a remote area north of Ramsey Canyon which is west of the city of Sierra Vista by a USBP agent in January, but due to weather conditions and the terrain was recovered in March by Cochise County SO. Paperwork was found near the decedent with the possible name of 'Eduardo Flores Mendez' from Distrito Federal Mexico.)
 
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I have noticed this too! And it has always bothered me. Like we know who this person likely was but for some reason it is not confirmed. I heard that it is because of a communication problem between the US and the Mexican Embassy or something similar. Like they don't respond back. I have seen that a large amount of these cases are in Arizona and New Mexico.

I found a few in my thread: Violence against migrant workers/unidentifed or murdered

I made the thread after noticing a high volume of unidentified persons in my local North Carolina that were believed to be migrant workers. It upset me a great deal.

Here is the list of those I found with a known name or ID from that thread:

This is just a personal observation but it really bothers me. Has anyone else noticed that the Hispanic unidentified on NamUs are more likely to have a public graphic morgue photo? I don't like it one bit! Is there a reason for that?
There very well could be a communication problem between the US and Mexico with the language barrier but you would think that at this point we would have people that can bridge that gap and get these people back to their families. So many families that are missing loved ones and I can't imagine how helpless they feel if no one is advocating for them.
 
Colibrí Center – Colibrí Center for Human Rights
The work of the Colibrí Center began in 2006 with the collection of anthropological data about people who have disappeared while crossing the U.S.-Mexico border. This data includes detailed physical descriptions plus information about what people were carrying or wearing and where they were last seen. This work began as a partnership with the Pima County Office of the Medical Examiner (PCOME), which receives remains found in much of southern Arizona...

...When the medical examiner identifies a person through data collected by the Colibrí Center, Colibrí staff notify the family about the result. Colibrí makes these notification calls in a humane and loving way and can often connect families with others who can help them repatriate their loved one and help them with their grief.

...Colibrí has taken over 3,475 missing persons reports and more than 1,190 DNA samples, leading to 142 identifications that otherwise would not have been made.



Personas desaparecidas
In Mexico, the names of disappeared persons are not public. This website was set up to drive home that these are not lists or just numbers, but actual missing people (at least this was my interpretation)

RNPED
However this site is apparently a government database of missing persons

https://sg.guanajuato.gob.mx/index.php/personas-desaparecidas/
It looks like Guanajuato has their own list up (maybe the states can do it individually? I also found one for Edo de Mex and Sinaloa so there are likely more)


Registros Desaparecidos
Not a database of the missing/UID but gives an interesting history and development of a project that collects and assimilates demographic data on those who are missing (and some later located). General stats are provided and a searchable tool at the end allows you to compare variables (age, sex, region/state).

http://pgjesin.gob.mx:8090/desaparecidos/
Dashboard CENAPI
Searchable by state then narrows down to names and other specifics. This might be a good one for the persons found with some sort of ID, especially if the state/region is mentioned.

I know I have seen private databases in the past with identifying info and photos so will keep looking for those.
 
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I have noticed this too! And it has always bothered me. Like we know who this person likely was but for some reason it is not confirmed. I heard that it is because of a communication problem between the US and the Mexican Embassy or something similar. Like they don't respond back. I have seen that a large amount of these cases are in Arizona and New Mexico.

I found a few in my thread: Violence against migrant workers/unidentifed or murdered

I made the thread after noticing a high volume of unidentified persons in my local North Carolina that were believed to be migrant workers. It upset me a great deal.

Here is the list of those I found with a known name or ID from that thread:

This is just a personal observation but it really bothers me. Has anyone else noticed that the Hispanic unidentified on NamUs are more likely to have a public graphic morgue photo? I don't like it one bit! Is there a reason for that?
You know the answer to your last question...
This is why a guest worker program is so critically needed. If scores of migrant workers are mysteriously expiring, well, that merits oversight and regulation. A guest worker program is well overdue.

amateur opinion and speculation
 
You know the answer to your last question...
This is why a guest worker program is so critically needed. If scores of migrant workers are mysteriously expiring, well, that merits oversight and regulation. A guest worker program is well overdue.

amateur opinion and speculation
And now replying to my own post to add....

It's unlikely to happen (a guest worker program) for the same reason large corporations outsource their manufacturing and call centers to overpopulated and poor countries; they get dirt cheap labor, and it keeps cost of goods down. As long as large corporations call the shots on this type of outsourcing, you will see these type of human rights violations. The farms are often owned or subsidized by big business, and well you know the rest. Apparently many americans are okay with this approach, as it's been going on for decades. What is the life of a migrant worker worth? Apparently not much in America?

Amateur opinion and speculation
 
Ok, I grabbed everything I could find. Here's the current list of Mexican Missing Persons Databases that I have.
Mexico

AlertaAmber México : Inicio - Amber Alert Mexico (Spanish)

https://app.cedac.pgr.gob.mx/HASVISTOA/index.jsp - Missing Persons (Spanish)

https://rnped.segob.gob.mx/ - RNPED Missing Persons (Spanish)

Personas desaparecidas - Data Cívica Missing Persons Mexico (Spanish)

http://pgjesin.gob.mx:8090/desaparecidos/ - Missing Persons Mexico (Spanish)

Personas no localizadas | Procuraduría General de Justicia del Estado de Baja California - Missing Persons Baja California (Spanish)

Mujeres, niños y niñas extraviados – Fiscalía General del Estado - Missing persons Chihuahua (Spanish)

https://www.facebook.com/FiscaliaDesaparecidosCoahuila/ - Missing Persons of Coahuila (Spanish)

https://www.facebook.com/ColimaDesaparecidos/ - Missing Persons of Colima (Spanish)

http://www.pgj.col.gob.mx/2013/pgj_amber_colima.php - Amber Alert Colima (Spanish)

https://sg.guanajuato.gob.mx/index.php/personas-desaparecidas/ - Guanajuato - (Spanish)

https://michoacan.gob.mx/personas-desaparecidas/ - Missing Persons Michoacan (Spanish)

http://fge.oaxaca.gob.mx/fiscalia/index.php/personas-desaparecidas -Oaxaca Missing People (Spanish)

https://fiscaliageneralqro.gob.mx/NoLocalizados/NoLocalizados_Mme.html - Queretaro Missing Persons (Spanish)

http://fiscaliaslp.gob.mx/vi/busqueda-de-personas-no-localizadas/ -San Luis Potosi Missing Persons (Spanish)

http://fiscalia.sonora.gob.mx/personas-ext-des - Sonora Missing Persons (Spanish)

https://www.fiscaliatabasco.gob.mx/AtencionVictimas/PersonasDesaparecidas -Tabasco Missing Persons (Spanish)

https://pgjtlaxcala.gob.mx/2019/02/21/alerta-amber/ Tlaxcala Missing Person (Spanish)

https://www.segobver.gob.mx/cebv/ -Veracruz Missing Persons (Spanish)

( https://www.colibricenter.org/report-a-missing-border-crosser/ - Not a database, but an important resource for people trying to identified the bodies of migrants)
 
Does anyone know a database of missing persons from Mexico that has people going missing back into the 1990s and before? Because, I see that a lot of the people posted on some of the websites go missing from the 2000s - today.

Doe Network is the only one I know of that has people missing from Mexico from the 1990s to before.
Mexico Missing Persons
Mexico Missing Persons

*However, I don't necessarily know if these lists on the doe network are updated enough.
 
Does anyone know a database of missing persons from Mexico that has people going missing back into the 1990s and before? Because, I see that a lot of the people posted on some of the websites go missing from the 2000s - today.

Doe Network is the only one I know of that has people missing from Mexico from the 1990s to before.
Mexico Missing Persons
Mexico Missing Persons

*However, I don't necessarily know if these lists on the doe network are updated enough.
That is one of the problems I am running into I don't think there is a database of missing persons from Mexico. I have searched all over and cannot find anything reliable I'm seriously considering starting my own but that would be a huge undertaking and I wouldn't even know where to begin.
 

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