Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #126

[Yemelyan]

I'm having trouble quoting - not sure what's going on.

Jimmy: agree this was not random. I have long stated I believe they had prior contact with the Perp, this was a prearranged meet-up, and that they were trapped at the end of the trail.

Two male voices? That's interesting. LE has never stated that; now I'm going to have to listen to that clip several times over again.

Amateur opinion and speculation

From the April 2019 press conference when the extended audio was released:
Please keep in mind the person talking is one person and is the person on the bridge with the girls. This is NOT two different people speaking- please listen to it very, very carefully.

That's a direct quote from Superintendent Carter.

You can read a transcript of the press conference here to verify his remarks:

DELPHI PRESS CONFERENCE TRANSCRIPT (2019) - CrimeLights

 

[rosesfromangels]

From the April 2019 press conference when the extended audio was released:
Please keep in mind the person talking is one person and is the person on the bridge with the girls. This is NOT two different people speaking- please listen to it very, very carefully.

That's a direct quote from Superintendent Carter.

You can read a transcript of the press conference here to verify his remarks:

DELPHI PRESS CONFERENCE TRANSCRIPT (2019) - CrimeLights

THAnks. I just listening to the sound clip another 15 or so times. Sounds like one/same voice to me. Of course, I have an untrained ear.

What adult males had routine/unsuspicious contact with the girls above and beyond their school teachers?
I'm looking for a standing weekly activity that would give the Perp access to these girls. Weekly, consistent activities that involved males in late teens - 40 age group. Routine. Weekly. THat's my POI list.

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[JimmyWells]

What's the evidence that supports the location where the victims were found being a dump site as opposed to the site of the murders?

If you're just speculating, I'd be interested to hear examples of similar cases where victims were known to be killed elsewhere and then their bodies returned to near proximity of where they were abducted? What would be the motivation of a killer who does this? What are the evidence patterns typically seen in dump sites vs kill sites and how does this fit with known information about the Delphi case?

All of this was actually discussed here fairly recently but I for one would love to hear your take on it.

1. All corpses show lividity patterns. The Delphi autopsy report is sealed so there's no way any of us have access to information that makes a statement on whether these particular victims had lividity inconsistent with how they were found.

2. You hit the nail on the head that true dump sites normally are very clean scenes with lesser amounts of associated physical evidence. How does this observation go along with Ives' statements about quantity and typology of physical evidence at the Delphi scene?

3. Transporting victims from the site of their murder and dumping them is often an attempt by the offender to obscure the link in the relationship between the victim and himself. He fears that investigators will be able to easily recognize the nature of their relationship OR, if unknown to the victim, he suspects that the initial contact site was observed by witnesses/cameras, etc. In these cases the offender seeks to put time and distance between himself and the victim/initial contact site. If Delphi investigators have found the dump site and not the murder site, this would be the opposite offender behavior of putting time and distance between himself and the scene. He could have dumped them anywhere. It's a huge risk to transport a dead victim in the first place in terms of creating secondary forensic sites (such as, in your vehicle) and being seen by witnesses. In this case, a number of witnesses would have already been searching for the girls in the area.

I'm unaware of any cases where an offender returned even one victim to a location so close to the original abduction site (though I'm sure some outlier cases could indeed be dredged up). In the Delphi situation, an offender was dealing with two victims and over three hundred pounds of weight in rough terrain. You have to ask yourself how he would have transported them. I don't see a dump site scenario here. JMO

I don't think Delphi was a dump job, I was pointing out the similarities in the search patterns between Delphi and West Memphis. I believe in both of those cases the primary crime scene is the area in which the victims were recovered.

 

[Yemelyan]

I don't think Delphi was a dump job, I was pointing out the similarities in the search patterns between Delphi and West Memphis. I believe in both of those cases the primary crime scene is the area in which the victims were recovered.

Oh...okay. This part of your post made it seem like you were calling both the Delphi crime scene and the WM3 crime scene "dump jobs":

Let me be clear that I don't think it's the same offender but the dump job had some similarities. In both cases, the area was searched the night before, bodies were not recovered, and in both cases, the perp got in and out unscathed.

 

[somequestions]

My father-in-law was an FBI special agent, but we spent zero amount of time discussing investigative techniques.(although he did have some pretty funny stories...). What I do know is they work very hard and take their jobs seriously and they talk to tons of people.
I think what you hinted at is true. We watch TV and think all cases are solved by clever gadgets or DNA or other scientific woohoo. In this case we want to think, “why can’t they clear up that image”, “why can’t they match that audio”, “why can’t they match that DNA, or do familial DNA or make a Parabon sketch” etc. The hard answer may be...because they can’t. And if they can, maybe that doesn’t give them the answers they need. So then they are back to good old fashion investigative work. That is what will solve this case I believe. DNA is not going to solve this case. It might confirm LE’s suspicions about some guy, but it won’t solve it.

My point was that sometimes a case can have lots of forensic evidence, but you still need that name to connect it to. None of us knows what the investigators know about the evidence, but since the very beginning this case has always felt like there was physical evidence and all police needed to do was release a still picture/audio and later video, and eventually once enough time had passed they would get that tip, that name they needed to solve the case.

And after over 3 1/2 years it just has not happened, yet.

 

[Ravenmoon]

And honestly, this is a question.
A person of 16-25 would probably play a video game instead, or even if a video, something more modern, with 3D graphics, so my opinion is, a) you are not in that group, b) you think the perpetrator is older.
Unless the person had a “movie night” with the parents?

The Silence of the Lambs is an academy award winner. Anyone that has a love of cinema, particularly during the days of Covid, might watch something that has such a strong story line and is so suspenseful.

EBM to add, even before Covid, this film would draw those that are movie buffs. The fact that it is a trilogy may draw even more people to it.

 

[JimmyWells]

I'm having trouble quoting - not sure what's going on.

Jimmy: agree this was not random. I have long stated I believe they had prior contact with the Perp, this was a prearranged meet-up, and that they were trapped at the end of the trail.

Two male voices? That's interesting. LE has never stated that; now I'm going to have to listen to that clip several times over again.

Amateur opinion and speculation

People are going to disagree with me on this but when I hear "Guys" I hear a younger man with a flamboyant delivery<modsnip>. When I hear, "Down the hill," I hear a scruffy middle-aged 40 to 50 something-year-old barfly with a sinus infection.

 

[Ravenmoon]

People are going to disagree with me on this but when I hear "Guys" I hear a younger man with a flamboyant delivery<modsnip>. When I hear, "Down the hill," I hear a scruffy middle-aged 40 to 50 something-year-old barfly with a sinus infection.

I agree with the younger version.
<modsnip>

 

[JimmyWells]

he sure was hauling a lot of equipment for just being a "drifter". I think he lives out there and is a car ride away. railway killers are interesting, but I don't think they can ride the rails anymore like they did in the 70's...mOO

Don't you think they would have caught him? Grainy or not, I think I'd be able to decipher if the person in the video is a person I know.

 

[Spartygirl]

I don't know if he drove off either. But to walk from the CS, up the hill to the rear of that cemetery, get in a car, and turn right when departing, would put me in rural Indiana real quick, where the eyes to see me are minimal, very minimal.

Correct
Plus by parking down in the rear corner of the cemetery, by RL's property, his vehicle would not be seen from the road if someone drove past the cemetery.
So, leave CS, walk to vehicle, rear corner by RL's, drive up the drive to road, turn right, and he is out of there without being seen.
JMO

 

[JimmyWells]

Oh...okay. This part of your post made it seem like you were calling both the Delphi crime scene and the WM3 crime scene "dump jobs":

Let me be clear that I don't think it's the same offender but the dump job had some similarities. In both cases, the area was searched the night before, bodies were not recovered, and in both cases, the perp got in and out unscathed.

I gotta get better with semantics, I meant "Dump job" as a generalization as to the crime scene.

 

[Ravenmoon]

Much like the opinions of anyone employed with Bible Belt law enforcement, I disagree.

Please remember, ISP are not the only LE working this case.

 

[rosesfromangels]

Correct
Plus by parking down in the rear corner of the cemetery, by RL's property, his vehicle would not be seen from the road if someone drove past the cemetery.
So, leave CS, walk to vehicle, rear corner by RL's, drive up the drive to road, turn right, and he is out of there without being seen.
JMO

We've also discussed/considered other modes of transport where he could have escaped through the woods, or an off road path. Mountain or dirt bike, even a horse

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[Spartygirl]

I get it. And I don't want to beat a dead horse here, but I will, for a bit.

A simple comment by a teenager, at school, maybe at the table in the cafeteria, heard by a dozen other students, that they are going swimming, say, in a dangerous part of a local stream. One of those students goes home and comments at the dinner table about the teenager, and how dangerous it is. Or a couple students are discussing it later in the day as the custodian walks by pushing a mop. There's no way LE could trace it. Unless they were VERY lucky.

Point being, for me, I don't think these girls were entrapped, and I don't think they had any traceable electronic data that would show they were communicating with the killer(s), however, I DO think it very plausible that a killer could have anonymously learned of their upcoming presence at the bridge that day.

I agree !!

 

[JimmyWells]

Please remember, ISP are not the only LE working this case.

Yea but they're the primary, the FBI takes direction from them. I'm sure there are some brilliant minds on the case, but Napoleon Syndrome is alive and well in law enforcement, and these little PD's tend to screw up some pretty big cases, Holly Bobo, the Oklahoma Girl Scout Murders, WM3, April Tinsley are a few examples off the top of my head.

 

[JimmyWells]

https://www.cityofdelphi.org/docume...rails/680-delphi-trails-map-updated-2011/file

Well now, that certainly complicates things. Nice catch!

 

[steeltowngirl]

I'm having trouble quoting - not sure what's going on.

Jimmy: agree this was not random. I have long stated I believe they had prior contact with the Perp, this was a prearranged meet-up, and that they were trapped at the end of the trail.

Two male voices? That's interesting. LE has never stated that; now I'm going to have to listen to that clip several times over again.

Amateur opinion and speculation

^BBM

IIRC, they went to great lengths in the press conference to emphasize that it was the same person speaking on the G,DTH audio clip.

jmo

 

[Spartygirl]

People are going to disagree with me on this but when I hear "Guys" I hear a younger man with a flamboyant delivery<modsnip>. When I hear, "Down the hill," I hear a scruffy middle-aged 40 to 50 something-year-old barfly with a sinus infection.

HA!!
This would fit 2 of my perps being out there that day in one of my scenarios
I have a few different scenarios.
Not random
I need to go listen again.

 

[JimmyWells]

https://www.cityofdelphi.org/docume...rails/680-delphi-trails-map-updated-2011/file

Well now, that certainly complicates things. Nice catch!

^BBM

IIRC, they went to great lengths in the press conference to emphasize that it was the same person speaking on the G,DTH audio clip.

jmo

I'm not saying this is the case, but LE often does not tell the truth in press conferences. I don't think they have anything, not even an accurate description, They have the perp on video yet has two sketches, neither of which look like another, and probably the entire murder on audio, and are no closer than you or I.

 

[rosesfromangels]

^BBM

IIRC, they went to great lengths in the press conference to emphasize that it was the same person speaking on the G,DTH audio clip.

jmo

YEs, thanks to some responding posts, I think we have now established that LE states conclusively that the voice is of ONE male. You are correct.

Amateur opinion and speculation