Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #127

[BNA]

Do LEO submit a DNA sample as part of the application process or hiring process or during orientation to their new job?

Posting this question after reading about a recent issue with the Lafayette PD.

 

[Charlot123]

The phrase "rusty belt" gave me a chuckle because it brought to mind a chastity belt, which is the only kind of belt I could think of that could rust.

Here in the Midwest we use the term "rust belt" (as opposed to "rusty belt").

Ozoner, I feel bad that it has rusted... remember, I lived at MW, not long, but in the 90es, and I imagine that it was very different.

 

[Charlot123]

Who thinks the DNA sample was lost or otherwise compromised at this point? As much as I hate to speak these words I am seriously doubtful.

Something changed about that DNA; or in the story, thus rendering DNA unusable. It could have been something simple and procedural, i think.

However, when it comes to live material, anything is possible. I had to have amnio twice, because Dynacare had energy outage at night and 25 collected samples were lost. The geneticists were scared to face 25 angry pregnant women, so for 10 days I was waiting for "my" cells to grow, only to be told that we had to repeat the test, and during the test, oh horror! - the ultrasound specialist kind-heartedly blabbered out the whole story. I had a lot of questions, starting with a reserve generator in the lab, and ending with that senseless behavior of the geneticist, but it was useless to ask... In short, I don't know if anything happened, but I know stuff happens, with cells, samples, and with DNA.

 

[Yemelyan]

bbm
I find the whole story/case dramatic indeed.

Most people do or there wouldn't be as much interest in the case as there is, however.....

Kelsi is letting people know that when they spin wild, dramatic scenarios about the crime that have no basis in fact it is hurtful to the family to read (or hear, in the case of podcasts/youtubers).

 

[Yemelyan]

Do LEO submit a DNA sample as part of the application process or hiring process or during orientation to their new job?

Posting this question after reading about a recent issue with the Lafayette PD.

Good question. Maybe some of our LE posters will chime in....

I think police unions broadly oppose this practice but at least one state, I want to say Louisiana, did make DNA collection from police officers the law - however, it only applied to new recruits hired after a certain date, not everyone. It's unclear too how those samples would be used - would they be routinely checked against criminal samples? Perhaps not.

 

[stattlich1]

Something changed about that DNA; or in the story, thus rendering DNA unusable. It could have been something simple and procedural, i think.

I can't tell you how many times I've thought the DNA LE has must have been planted. Or the DNA, which normally would have pointed directly to one person, or another, never wound up pointing to any one person.

On a side note, there is a vid of Riley and two other LE officers, I've posted it a few times, where Riley says something like, the people responsible for this, then quickly says, or the person.

I don't think LE knows if 1, or 2 perps are responsible. In fact, when LE says the man on the bridge is the one 'responsible' for the murders, well, IMO, it would be more clear, had they said, the man on the bridge IS the murderer.

Way to much unclear use of the English Language for this old country boy to get any clarification in his mind as to what LE is REALLY saying.

Maybe purposeful on their part.

 

[TedMac]

Who thinks the DNA sample was lost or otherwise compromised at this point? As much as I hate to speak these words I am seriously doubtful.

No. The idea of that is nothing more than speculation. MOO, but it has been stated that it was touch DNA on one of the victim's clothes. If so, everyone touching the clothes (family friends, etc) potentially has their DNA there. I don't believe they received any DNA confirmation on anyone.

 

[Yemelyan]

No. The idea of that is nothing more than speculation. MOO, but it has been stated that it was touch DNA on one of the victim's clothes. If so, everyone touching the clothes (family friends, etc) potentially has their DNA there. I don't believe they received any DNA confirmation on anyone.

As to the bolded part, I'm even holding out full judgment on that until we hear it in MSM from LE. The origin of this info is an anonymous source on a youtube program (granted, one we are allowed to reference, but I don't place 100% confidence in the info just yet).

 

[Justice101]

following

 

[just guessin]

Hi everyone, I’m new to this so please be patient with me
<modsnipped comment which is against our rules>

 

[wary]

So I'm new to this thread and am trying to catch up, as I live in Indiana (about an hour from Delphi) and am somewhat familiar with this case (though admittedly haven't followed it closely). I've scanned through the media thread, but am curious as to what the prevailing thought (if there is one) seems to be on the forum:

I know initially the belief the BG was likely from the Delphi area, or at least very familiar with it. Is this still what LE seems to be leaning toward?

Is there any clarity on the DNA situation? I watched the Genetic Detective earlier this year and thought about this case - seems like it would be a perfect scenario for that approach - does the lack of progress there seem to indicate the lack of a full DNA profile?

Well, as I understand things, wonderful as genetic genealogy is, immediate success is not guaranteed. (Did the TV show only show successes, or did it include cases where the work drags on frustratingly, without results?)

Off the top of my head, a few things that can complicate things:

1: Adoption and undocumented paternity. You can’t trace a person through family connections, if no one knows about the family connections.

2: A large number of people sharing the same general DNA. If you have a population who tends to intermarry, there’s difficulty in narrowing things down.

3: Sheer randomness. If the closest relative they can find is a fifth cousin, they’ll have a lot harder time than if the murder’s brother innocently supplied his DNA. It can go either way.

And, it’s a lot easier to identify a missing person, than it is to identify a murderer. Families will tell you about their free-spirited aunt who left home as a teenager, and never wrote or called... But no one comes with a ‘murderer’ tag on his forehead, so to speak.

 

[Hoosierfan72]

Well, as I understand things, wonderful as genetic genealogy is, immediate success is not guaranteed. (Did the TV show only show successes, or did it include cases where the work drags on frustratingly, without results?)

Off the top of my head, a few things that can complicate things:

1: Adoption and undocumented paternity. You can’t trace a person through family connections, if no one knows about the family connections.

2: A large number of people sharing the same general DNA. If you have a population who tends to intermarry, there’s difficulty in narrowing things down.

3: Sheer randomness. If the closest relative they can find is a fifth cousin, they’ll have a lot harder time than if the murder’s brother innocently supplied his DNA. It can go either way.

And, it’s a lot easier to identify a missing person, than it is to identify a murderer. Families will tell you about their free-spirited aunt who left home as a teenager, and never wrote or called... But no one comes with a ‘murderer’ tag on his forehead, so to speak.

Interesting. I don't believe on the show they ran into any dead ends..... the geneologist talked about some bumps in the road (usually related to two brothers marrying two sisters - a common occurrence in the 1800s/early 1900s, or sometimes a child by a prior marriage) but I don't recall her running into adoption or children born out of wedlock, etc. so that's possible, I suppose. Watching the show, I came away with the impression that a geneologist could solve pretty much any case with good DNA - they made it look that easy. (It was only six episodes or so, though). MOO

 

[girlfriday]

6. Someone, who is used to addressing a crowd of people of different ages of both sexes, because of his extraordinary job, which is different from normal jobs. IMO
ETA: added: "..., because ...."

"Guys" also a very common thing that I've heard on SM channels, spoken by the host when addressing their viewers.

 

[Yemelyan]

Interesting. I don't believe on the show they ran into any dead ends..... the geneologist talked about some bumps in the road (usually related to two brothers marrying two sisters - a common occurrence in the 1800s/early 1900s, or sometimes a child by a prior marriage) but I don't recall her running into adoption or children born out of wedlock, etc. so that's possible, I suppose. Watching the show, I came away with the impression that a geneologist could solve pretty much any case with good DNA - they made it look that easy. (It was only six episodes or so, though). MOO

Don't be fooled by TV shows into thinking that every scene yields "good" DNA. Even in cases where sexual assault occurred, DNA is not always retrieved, especially in situations where it's an outdoor crime scene, as Delphi was. I read a recent study of 480 sexually-motivated murders and the number that yielded usable DNA profiles from offenders was astonishingly low...it was less than 50% of cases.

 

[girlfriday]

Good question. Maybe some of our LE posters will chime in....

I think police unions broadly oppose this practice but at least one state, I want to say Louisiana, did make DNA collection from police officers the law - however, it only applied to new recruits hired after a certain date, not everyone. It's unclear too how those samples would be used - would they be routinely checked against criminal samples? Perhaps not.

Edit: BBM
Which posters are they?

 

[StarryStarryNight]

Hi everyone, I’m new to this so please be patient with me
<modsnipped>

Welcome just guessing! I’m glad you’re joining our discussion.
<modsnipped response to snipped portion in quote>

 

[steeltowngirl]

Interesting. I don't believe on the show they ran into any dead ends..... the geneologist talked about some bumps in the road (usually related to two brothers marrying two sisters - a common occurrence in the 1800s/early 1900s, or sometimes a child by a prior marriage) but I don't recall her running into adoption or children born out of wedlock, etc. so that's possible, I suppose. Watching the show, I came away with the impression that a geneologist could solve pretty much any case with good DNA - they made it look that easy. (It was only six episodes or so, though). MOO

Adoption could be a stumbling block when tracing ancestry. I was adopted as a child. My 23andme DNA test confirmed the identity of my biological family. But if someone were to try and trace the family I actually grew up with via the results of the test, they would learn nothing at all.

But, for the purposes of criminal tracing, I think DNA would be still helpful. If my DNA were in the database, it could still create a familial link to a killer. I just may not actually know the killer that I was related to.

As an aside, that’s one of the scarier things about biological searches made my adoptees. It can open a Pandora’s box of unintended knowledge.

jmo

 

[Yemelyan]

Edit: BBM
Which posters are they?

You know where it says "active member" under your screen name? There are some posters here who are LE and who've gone through the verification process with Websleuths. So it'll say "verified LE" in that spot and you'll know who they are. Sometimes lawyers and other specialties choose to be verified as well.

 

[Peppery]

I was looking for DC speaking about the bridge (could not find it, but found an article in Purdue newspaper).

A new path

it is about Kelsi, and the bridge, and the effect of the murders on Delphi. I hope it is mainstream as they interview Kelsi.

And again, some dichotomy.

In the same part, “When the girls were found gone, dead, everybody in the community — all of our hearts broke at the exact same time,” Delaney said when we spoke later that day. “It was too personal. They took our kids.”

And then about the perp who needs “serious *advertiser censored*-whooping”.

So why when they found the girls, they thought about “them”, and now, “him”?

What has changed?

Wow, very interesting response Kelsi has to blood spatter. Lends credence to many posters belief that a knife was used in some fashion.

 

[Mellowmelly]

نتيجة بحث Google عن الصور حول https://ewscripps.brightspotcdn.com/dims4/default/3dd07e6/2147483647/strip/true/crop/640x360+0+34/resize/1280x720!/quality/90/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmediaassets.theindychannel.com%2Fphoto%2F2017%2F04%2F11%2FEngineers_Study_Bridge_1491919378594_58090603_ver1.0_640_480.JPG

I havnt posted in a while although have still been following. I thought I'd post this pic I found on google of the monnon high bridge, which I found interesting. Please delete if not allowed.