Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #127

[Yemelyan]

I'm going to jump in here only because I had this saved. Sheriff Leazenby did say this, that there was "no ongoing danger...isolated to the victims" in this video. I'm sorry I don't have a time stamp.

I find his response so interesting. If there was evidence that the girls were lured into coming to the bridge that day (and not simply targeted after an opportunistic offender identified them as the likeliest targets at that specific location), he could have easily said, "Due to the investigation I can't give details but, we have reason to think this crime was isolated to these particular girls and for that reason there is no danger to the public."

But he doesn't say his statement was based on evidence. Here he says it was based on a "feeling" and "faith" that a crime like this wouldn't happen to Delphi again.

He also says that just as important was his desire to convey to the people of Delphi that he wanted to keep the peace and reduce paranoia. He says he doesn't think "constantly looking over your shoulder is any way to live."

What I read into this is that his statement is more about what he hopes will happen than what he knows for sure and it's based mostly on his desire to prevent people from panicking.

Contrast this to these statements, these span the time period from immediately after the bodies were found up until the three year mark:

"Be cautious and careful and be parents...know where your children are and what they are doing."

ISP: Delphi Amber Alert wouldn't have helped

Detective Kevin Hammond: "Things have changed for us all...I am more vigilant with my own children since this happened."
The best of humanity in the worst of times | Carroll County Comet/

Interviewer: "This community has never had a double homicide, Sergeant, from what I understand, and it has been years that Delphi, a community of 3000, has ever had a murder. What do you say to this community tonight because a...killer is on the loose, a double murderer?"

Sgt. Riley: "Well, we tell people, like we've been telling people since this has all started, you need to be safe out there. We are working 24/7 to try to solve this horrendous crime."

CNN.com - Transcripts

Three Years Later: Everything we know about the murders of Libby German & Abby Williams in Delphi
“I can’t say there’s not a threat to the community,” Indiana State Police Sgt. Kim Riley told RTV6 at the time. "We have not caught the person yet. Is the person still in the community? We don’t know.”

 

[Charlot123]

Just hearing the reality that the girls said something when initially spoken to, just makes me sick at my stomach. It makes it even more real the confusion and terror that the girls must have been going thru. What is he doing? Why is doing this? Is he going to call our parents or the police? He probably had a false storyline going (not revealing his true motive) before he got them off the bridge and out of sight where he probably only then pulled the gun.

The girls were complying in the early stages thinking they had done something wrong (trespassing, etc) probably before it escalated and then they were down the hill out of sight of the trail, trapped and totally helpless.

Just makes me want to puke.

Yes, I agree, he cornered two teenagers having fun, and probably, put them through unbelievable moments of horror, and then killed. What is the fun of it? Did he ever have a child? A sibling? A parent? What if it happened to his child, sibling, or parent?

 

[sunshineray]

Yes, I agree, he cornered two teenagers having fun, and probably, put them through unbelievable moments of horror, and then killed. What is the fun of it? Did he ever have a child? A sibling? A parent? What if it happened to his child, sibling, or parent?

He's a monster, lower than low. He has no empathy. It's all about him, that's what drives him. He's a tormentor, a devil hiding in plain sight. The person or persons who know need to think more about the innocents destroyed by him and the innocents still out there who are in danger from him. This person they're helping to hide from justice isn't worth a damn. It's time to tell.

 

[Ozoner]

He thinks he is home free now because he hasn’t been arrested but the Texas Rangers have him in their sights imo.

Snipped.

What leads you to believe that the Texas Rangers have him in their sights? (I wasn't aware that they were involved in the case in any way.)

ETA: I saw your post indicating that you had a particular suspect in mind, but what evidence do you have?

 

[Ozoner]

The majority of serial killers don't move around from geographic area to geographic area. It's actually pretty rare for a serial killer to commit murders in more than one state unless they themselves change residences during the course of their "career." Notable exceptions are the drifter type killers who are always on the move (in a way Israel Keyes fits this type) and those who travel as part of their occupation.

Snipped.

I think the notion that BG may have stalked the girls in advance is silly given the evidence, so I'm not arguing in favor of that theory. However, I do question whether it's rare for a serial killer to move around.

The statistics are likely based on serial killers who have been caught, and it may simply be that the ones who move around are rarely caught. There could be dozens of Samuel Littles out there—although I don't think you'd find many with his body count.

 

[Yemelyan]

Snipped.

I think the notion that BG may have stalked the girls in advance is silly given the evidence, so I'm not arguing in favor of that theory. However, I do question whether it's rare for a serial killer to move around.

The statistics are likely based on serial killers who have been caught, and it may simply be that the ones who move around are rarely caught. There could be dozens of Samuel Littles out there—although I don't think you'd find many with his body count.

It's true that many haven't been caught so we don't have a picture of what all of them do, so I take your point. And you will always find outliers for every single "truth" about their behavior.

Also, theories about why they behave the way they do certainly shift over time. For example, it was once thought that offenders were either organized or disorganized. Now that large studies have been done most people who study killers believe the vast majority of killers exhibit elements of both types in their crimes and it's actually more rare to be just one or the other.

But I don't believe that LE has somehow managed to catch or even detect only those offenders who subscribe to the overarching behavioral patterns that have been discerned, and that there is a full and equal population of them that behave completely differently that would skew all the data if we knew about it. JMO

For me personally, my research into the topic has formed my belief that one of the overriding factors in opportunistic types of offenders (which I believe this was, I don't subscribe to any type of advance targeting in this case based in what is known publicly) is the offender's level of comfort within the geographic area within which he selects AND disposes of victims. So most of the things I post here are my opinions of offender behavior based on this and it's just MOO.

You might look at a series of murders and think, because of their brutality and sadism, that the person committing them was totally irrational because killing another person seems irrational to you. But make no mistake, most offenders are actually quite rational in the decisions they make, especially AFTER the crime when they have to think about what they know and where they can comfortably dispose of victims without attracting attention.

 

[Marzipan]

There was this said but doesn't mention bussiness or home video cams.

"Officers are asking anyone who may have taken pictures in the area or was just on the trail to contact authorities immediately."

Police ask for assistance in identifying man seen walking on trail where Delphi teens went missing | Fox 59

i guess I was more wondering if they’d asked for security video from anywhere in the wider town-country region, like anyone on the street in town, workplaces with cameras, sporting events, parking lots around the broader area, gas stations, looking and dressed like BG.
I’m confident LE has looked for those but I’m not hearing that there was a public ask for that type of video. In the case of missing boy Kyron Hormon, there were repeated asks for any and all video. In that case, they had and still have an obvious suspect but no proof and no certainty if there was a helper or not —to my knowledge anyway.
Does it mean anything if they didn’t make a public ask for video beyond from the crime area itself?

 

[sunshineray]

i guess I was more wondering if they’d asked for security video from anywhere in the wider town-country region, like anyone on the street in town, workplaces with cameras, sporting events, parking lots around the broader area, gas stations, looking and dressed like BG.
I’m confident LE has looked for those but I’m not hearing that there was a public ask for that type of video. In the case of missing boy Kyron Hormon, there were repeated asks for any and all video. In that case, they had and still have an obvious suspect but no proof and no certainty if there was a helper or not —to my knowledge anyway.
Does it mean anything if they didn’t make a public ask for video beyond from the crime area itself?

Because it's so rural maybe the door to door and co-operation was immediate? LE had no need to ask for those kind of surveillance videos but all were readily available?

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Hopefully they've held enough facts about their evidence and about their investigation in confidence so that he isn't sure what they have on him other than the video/audio. If they've interviewed him or someone close to him, then he knows more.

I go back and forth on my opinion whether they still have a specific name/shortlist of names in mind or if they have no name. IMO they still have a lot of information to work with.

If someone wanted to know, what LE have on the case, (as they said at the PC), they have to know their suspect No.1, namely the one person, who asked questions and wanted to be informed very well. Whether through an intermediary or by himself. IMO
So, I think, their shortlist is verrry short perhaps.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

I think it’s possible there was a SK in the Midwest. He does move from state to state because he can’t keep regular employment for some reason. This angers him but he can’t stop himself. He has to be stopped by LE and I think they have someone in their sights. When he is between jobs he hunts for his ideal little girl victims. I hope he is identified and caught before he acts again in another state. He thinks he is home free now because he hasn’t been arrested but the Texas Rangers have him in their sights imo.

I think, he is moving from home state to another state only for days and then returning back to his home in IN. It has nothing to do with unemployment, IMO, he is now "independent" (Febr 2017) and can time his "journeys"/"events" like he wants or as his schedule allows. - I think, my poi has nothing to do with Texas Rangers at the moment, BUT I would suggest to TX Rangers to have a big interest in him (case Missy B.)! MOO IMO and so on

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Some interesting points and assumptions here.

Offenders who stalk a stranger and target them often kill their victims inside the victim's own residences...as you say, they've made an effort to know when their target is alone, what her usual routine is. When these targeted victims are abducted in outdoor public areas, they are often in the course of their usual, predictable routines (going to work, gym, etc). This was not the situation in Delphi but perhaps allowances can be made for outliers.

The majority of serial killers don't move around from geographic area to geographic area. It's actually pretty rare for a serial killer to commit murders in more than one state unless they themselves change residences during the course of their "career." Notable exceptions are the drifter type killers who are always on the move (in a way Israel Keyes fits this type) and those who travel as part of their occupation.

You wouldn't expect investigators to be saying anything at this stage if they really thought there was a chance the Iowa case is connected. However, from what is publicly known about the cases, IMO there are some notable differences. The main one to me is how the victims were transported from the initial contact site in the Iowa case and how far their bodies ended up from where they were last seen. They were taken from a relatively populated area to a very remote one but if you look at crime scene pictures their bodies were placed not far off the access road that vehicles drove on in the park. One victim was apparently left farther into the brush and one (perhaps the heavier one) closer to this road. So this scenario is more like a body dump situation than what Delphi seems to be and is a significant difference from an investigative standpoint. LE may also know there are differences in how the girls were killed or in signatures like bindings. I don't thiInk there is enough information publicly known to draw any firm conclusions on a connection between this case and Delphi. But that's JMO.

If I would see one or two victims dumped at the shore of a creek, in a curve of the creek, I automaticly would connect it with the Iowa case at my first impression. I was suspecting, Suzanne Morphew would be found in the curve of a creek also - but nothing until today. Okay, then it wasn't the same perp from IN probably ( but possibly her husband).

 

[Yemelyan]

If I would see one or two victims dumped at the shore of a creek, in a curve of the creek, I automaticly would connect it with the Iowa case at my first impression. I was suspecting, Suzanne Morphew would be found in the curve of a creek also - but nothing until today. Okay, then it wasn't the same perp probably but her husband possibly.

Yes, you've identified one of the main differences between the Delphi and Evansdale cases...curve of the river aside, in Iowa the girls were probably killed elsewhere and transported to that secretive spot to be hidden, in Delphi they were most likely killed in the location where they were found. To some who analyze this case, that's enough of a difference in offender behavior to shed a lot of doubt on their connection. But, nothing has been ruled out of course.

 

[Marzipan]

I think, he is moving from home state to another state only for days and then returning back to his home in IN. It has nothing to do with unemployment, IMO, he is now "independent" (Febr 2017) and can time his "journeys"/"events" like he wants or as his schedule allows. - I think, my poi has nothing to do with Texas Rangers at the moment, BUT I would suggest to TX Rangers to have a big interest in him (case Missy B.)! MOO IMO and so on

I had a POI that fits what you are saying, although now I have others ahead of him. But who is Missy B.?
ETA okay, I googled and figured out you are talking about Missy Bever’s murder. That suspect is between 5’2 and 5’7 if they are right.

 

[St. Anthony2017]

Yes, you've identified one of the main differences between the Delphi and Evansdale cases...curve of the river aside, in Iowa the girls were probably killed elsewhere and transported to that secretive spot to be hidden, in Delphi they were most likely killed in the location where they were found. To some who analyze this case, that's enough of a difference in offender behavior to shed a lot of doubt on their connection. But, nothing has been ruled out of course.

In Iowa the killer had to wait for the bodies to be found. In Delphi he wanted attention immediately imo and left them where he killed them so they would be found sooner not later. His mode of operation may change slightly as he hones his skills and he may crave all of the attention from LE, the public and the media coverage.

 

[minazoe]

I agree if the cases are related he has escalated and is taking bigger risks. The thing about most of the serial killers I have read about, which is about all of them, some that I wished I had never read, by the way...what you will find is they are shockingly uninteresting and even if they are cunning, which they certainly need to be, they are usually rather basic and dull, with flat affect and shallowness of personality. They are almost never accomplished or intellectual... like a Hanibal character. and think about it..duh..they have no feelings...it's all about sex and control
for the most part, and the relief they feel from expressing violent anger, sexual rage.

This is a super sadist if the cases are related..he escalates because he wants closer access to the pain and shock of victims and families because this is incredibly arousing to him. mOO

 

[Ozoner]

If someone wanted to know, what LE have on the case, (as they said at the PC), they have to know their suspect No.1, namely the one person, who asked questions and wanted to be informed very well. Whether through an intermediary or by himself. IMO
So, I think, their shortlist is verrry short perhaps.

Yes, you've identified one of the main differences between the Delphi and Evansdale cases...curve of the river aside, in Iowa the girls were probably killed elsewhere and transported to that secretive spot to be hidden, in Delphi they were most likely killed in the location where they were found. To some who analyze this case, that's enough of a difference in offender behavior to shed a lot of doubt on their connection. But, nothing has been ruled out of course.

In Iowa the killer had to wait for the bodies to be found. In Delphi he wanted attention immediately imo and left them where he killed them so they would be found sooner not later. His mode of operation may change slightly as he hones his skills and he may crave all of the attention from LE, the public and the media coverage.

Maybe. But consider that the Delphi victims were much bigger and heavier than the Evansville victims, so transporting the Delphi victims out of the area may simply have been unfeasible.

It's also possible that he planned to abduct the Delphi victims and kill them elsewhere but killed them near the abduction site because they resisted or tried to flee. In short, I would not rule out a connection between Evansville and Delphi despite the obvious differences.

 

[SMK777]

The thing about most of the serial killers I have read about, which is about all of them, some that I wished I had never read, by the way...what you will find is they are shockingly uninteresting and even if they are cunning, which they certainly need to be, they are usually rather basic and dull, with flat affect and shallowness of personality

My experience exactly. Thank you for putting it into words.

 

[Ozoner]

And then about the perp who needs “serious *advertiser censored*-whooping”.

Snipped.

A serious *advertiser censored*-whooping would be a start.

 

[JnRyan]

I'm not entirely convinced this killer is a serial killer. HOWEVER, I do believe he is a serial offender of sex related crimes. If he has killed since he likely has hidden the bodies of his victims and they are classified as missing persons and not murders. I don't believe this killer expected the massive amount of attention these murders generated and, along with video and audio, was probably really scared for months. If he came to the conclusion that he got away with this, I believe it is likely he evolved and hid his subsequent victims. Whether he is a serial killer or not, I do believe he has committed other crimes of a sexual nature prior to this one. I don't believe this killer just started down this path of murder with Abigail and Liberty that day. I believe he committed other offenses against children or sexual assault prior to the murders and may have not been caught for those crimes.

 

[Yemelyan]

Maybe. But consider that the Delphi victims were much bigger and heavier than the Evansville victims, so transporting the Delphi victims out of the area may simply have been unfeasible.

It's also possible that he planned to abduct the Delphi victims and kill them elsewhere but killed them near the abduction site because they resisted or tried to flee. In short, I would not rule out a connection between Evansville and Delphi despite the obvious differences.

Yes, I pointed out in an earlier post of mine that the size of the victims definitely could have played a role in the killer's decision-making with regard to what he did after the murders in the Delphi case.

Which actually brings up another difference to Evansdale...the two sets of victims were both children but Abby and Libby by virtue of size and circumstance (they were not in school when BG might have expected children to be) may have appeared to be much older teens at a distance/when he first zeroed in on them. There was also a size difference between the Evansdale victims but they were riding children's bikes and even had toys with them when they encountered their abductor (s) - IMO there was no mistaking that Lyric and Lizzie were definitely pre-pubescent children.

I do agree that not enough is known - to the public - to completely rule out a connection between the two cases but I think people get too wrapped up in comparing the dates and in facts like they were both found in places with "bridge" in the name.

Those types of things are interesting to speculate about but IMO not as important to investigators as factors like how the victims were selected, how they were lured/abducted, and how their bodies were disposed after the crime. So I'm just here to point out that there may be some very significant differences between the two cases there.