Possible Victim: Valerie Mack, 24, Manorville Jane Doe #6, missing 2000, found Nov 2000 & Gilgo Beach Apr 2011

[jollyjustice]

Here is my diagram which illustrates the condition in which Valerie's remains were found. I'm making a diagram for each victim whose remains were found dismembered to serve as a visual aid for those of us who process information better visually.

Head, hands and right foot dismembered. Right foot only was dismembered because she had a tattoo on it. These body parts were dumped miles away from her body as was Jessica’s, obviously because he didn’t want these potentially identifying body parts found. Whoever dismembered her did it for the sole purpose of making her more difficult to identify, which worked. Very difficult to identify someone when you can’t see their face, don’t have their hands for fingerprints and there’s no identifying marks such as tattoos. Valerie and Jessica were most likely killed by the same person. He really didn’t want them identified.

This is another reason why I now firmly believe that the whoever killed Valerie/Jessica and the GB4 are not the same guy.

 

[SharD]

Head, hands and right foot dismembered. Right foot only was dismembered because she had a tattoo on it. These body parts were dumped miles away from her body as was Jessica’s, obviously because he didn’t want these potentially identifying body parts found. Whoever dismembered her did it for the sole purpose of making her more difficult to identify, which worked. Very difficult to identify someone when you can’t see their face, don’t have their hands for fingerprints and there’s no identifying marks such as tattoos. Valerie and Jessica were most likely killed by the same person. He really didn’t want them identified.

This is another reason why I now firmly believe that the whoever killed Valerie/Jessica and the GB4 are not the same guy.

No, but he did not make them particularly difficult to find either. He did not even bother to bury their corpses. It worked, but out of the personal circumstances of the victims more than the perp's actions.

It notes another difference between the dismemberer and the GB4 killer. The former does NOT seem savvy with forensics and policework.

And is this the work of Bittrolff or someone else?

 

[coldcaser]

Head, hands and right foot dismembered. Right foot only was dismembered because she had a tattoo on it. These body parts were dumped miles away from her body as was Jessica’s, obviously because he didn’t want these potentially identifying body parts found. Whoever dismembered her did it for the sole purpose of making her more difficult to identify, which worked. Very difficult to identify someone when you can’t see their face, don’t have their hands for fingerprints and there’s no identifying marks such as tattoos. Valerie and Jessica were most likely killed by the same person. He really didn’t want them identified.

This is another reason why I now firmly believe that the whoever killed Valerie/Jessica and the GB4 are not the same guy.

It is only theorized that the reason her foot was dismembered was because she had a tattoo. The dismemberment was definitely done to prevent/hinder identification. It sure did work for a long time. Who knows how long Jessica could've gone unidentified for had it not been for the officer in DC who recognized her tattoo. I've long wondered though why one wing on her tattoo wasn't disfigured? I also feel certain Jessica and Valerie were murdered by the same person.

 

[jollyjustice]

No, but he did not make them particularly difficult to find either. He did not even bother to bury their corpses. It worked, but out of the personal circumstances of the victims more than the perp's actions.

It notes another difference between the dismemberer and the GB4 killer. The former does NOT seem savvy with forensics and policework.

And is this the work of Bittrolff or someone else?

The “not making them difficult to find” part, seems like that is what the killer wanted. He wanted them found. Hence going out of his way to dismember the identifying body parts which he hid very well, as those were not found until 2011, Long after Valerie and Jessica’s bodies were found in 2000 and 2003, yet the bodies were found rather quickly. He wanted his “work” seen and recognized. We know if he didn’t want them found he would have hid them better like he did with their dismembered body parts. He was certainly capable of hiding them well if he wanted to.

Bittrolff would be suspect number 1 for Valerie and Jessica’s murders. I do not think for 1 second that Bittroloff is responsible for the GB4 though, that’s someone completely different who I don’t think is on anyone’s radar yet. We know the killer of the GB4 is meticulous, his crimes seem heavily practiced and rehearsed beforehand, he needs things to go just right, he covers his tracks well.

Geraldine Hart recently had an interview where she stated two killers and I’m behind her on that 100% unlike us she’s privy to the evidence. She’s one of the best things that have happened to this case yet as we’re actually starting to get some answers now and she genuinely seems like she wants this thing solved.

 

[LR1]

I think Geraldine said that the dismembered cases were unique, which could be taken as her thinking they are separate cases, I might have missed her stating two killers but I would submit that placing four bodies intact on the parkway is somewhat unique and not exactly an everyday occurrence.

40+ miles from midtown on a 2 mile stretch of road the remains of six known SW's were placed.

Some of both the dismembered and the supposed intact worked out of midtown. Two killers procuring out of midtown, one dismembering and one not wouldn't be unimaginable for that population size... but placing their remains 40+ miles away only a few tenths of a mile apart, on the same side of the road, each on the surface each with similar victimology including race, age range and stature with no overlap in dismembered vs intact occurrences leads me to believe it's the same guy.

Shulman had 5 in 5 years and Rifkin was convicted in 9 but thought to be responsible for 17 in 4 years.

With the six in question we have 6 victims in 10 years. Both of our proposed perpetrators could be seen as somewhat low frequency offenders in comparison to some that had killed for years, until of course the last two. Both killers show the ability to go years without re-offending. In my mind, the timeline being what it is and the proximity of the remains, there's too many similarities with too few variations for it not to be the same killer. With the six, the first four, VM, JT, MBB and MB in succession were placed one after the other down the parkway in the order they were killed. My guess is with Asian male being placed between JT and the gilgo-4, a stones throw from each, he was killed in the 4 years between JT and MBB just before he changed up what he was doing with them postmortem.

 

[SharD]

I also think it are two killers. It is not unheard of that there are two different killers operating at the same time and place. Back in 1888 in London there was Jack and there was the Torso Murderer, for example. Both fished from the same pond.

I am not sure if LISK is "extremely intelligent" or "wants his work recognized". Perhaps he finds infamy to be something "nice", but I am not sure if it is his prime motivaton, like, for example, as it was with the Zodiac. As far as I know, LISK never taunted the police or sought to have his work published in the media. He only taunted some people his victims knew, and mainly as a crime of opportunity because he found the numbers in the phones that were on his victims by the time he abducted/murdered them. I find that there is little ritualistic or histrionic about the GB4. It more just seems to carried out by someone evil who hates women and doesn't really care about anything else but his own motivations.

We can at least say that the LISK is intelligent enough to leave few tracks, and remains ever so quiet.

But that is just my take.

 

[jollyjustice]

I think Geraldine said that the dismembered cases were unique, which could be taken as her thinking they are separate cases, I might have missed her stating two killers but I would submit that placing four bodies intact on the parkway is somewhat unique and not exactly an everyday occurrence.

40+ miles from midtown on a 2 mile stretch of road the remains of six known SW's were placed.

Some of both the dismembered and the supposed intact worked out of midtown. Two killers procuring out of midtown, one dismembering and one not wouldn't be unimaginable for that population size... but placing their remains 40+ miles away only a few tenths of a mile apart, on the same side of the road, each on the surface each with similar victimology including race, age range and stature with no overlap in dismembered vs intact occurrences leads me to believe it's the same guy.

Shulman had 5 in 5 years and Rifkin was convicted in 9 but thought to be responsible for 17 in 4 years.

With the six in question we have 6 victims in 10 years. Both of our proposed perpetrators could be seen as somewhat low frequency offenders in comparison to some that had killed for years, until of course the last two. Both killers show the ability to go years without re-offending. In my mind, the timeline being what it is and the proximity of the remains, there's too many similarities with too few variations for it not to be the same killer. With the six, the first four, VM, JT, MBB and MB in succession were placed one after the other down the parkway in the order they were killed. My guess is with Asian male being placed between JT and the gilgo-4, a stones throw from each, he was killed in the 4 years between JT and MBB just before he changed up what he was doing with them postmortem.

Here’s her interview from a few weeks ago where she states her two killer theory.

Gaining ground on a serial killer

 

[jollyjustice]

I also think it are two killers. It is not unheard of that there are two different killers operating at the same time and place. Back in 1888 in London there was Jack and there was the Torso Murderer, for example. Both fished from the.

I would take LISK as being rather intelligent, I don’t know if “extremely intelligent” would be correct, but he’s intelligent enough to be very organized and meticulous.

Also no, LISK was not the type of person who “wanted his work recognized” the GB4 were hidden and all lined up in the same area, he kept them together, did not not dump them in various places. LISK’s dumping ground was more like a secret trophy garden. I’m thinking he would most likely drive by their dump site on ocean parkway and take pleasure in the fact that they were there, relive the experience. LISK seems like the type that would be upset over the fact that “his” bodies were found.

This is another reason why this screams two separate killers to me. LISK seems like a serial killer who was just starting out, “his trophy garden” is why I think this because it really seems like he would have kept all of “his” bodies together lined up on the side of ocean parkway, we know he likes them together in the one spot. If he had more murders to his name they would have been found in ocean parkway. I’m near certain that Maureen was one of his first kills.

Lining the bodies up like that is very risky, as if someone finds one of the bodies, they find all of the bodies. The potential for discovering evidence and getting caught goes way up in that situation. So it was important for him to have the bodies lined up in one spot like that, it was worth the risk to him.

LISK is a sadist and they’re well known to rehearse and practice their crimes so much, that it’s hard for police to guess their age and how long they’ve been active. They’re so well practiced that their first murders seem like they were done by someone who’s experienced.

He most likely took a break when they were found and moved on to make another “garden” when he felt like it was safe and made sure that this one won’t be found this time.

 

[jollyjustice]

I also think it are two killers. It is not unheard of that there are two different killers operating at the same time and place. Back in 1888 in London there was Jack and there was the Torso Murderer, for example. Both fished from the same pond.

I am not sure if LISK is "extremely intelligent" or "wants his work recognized". Perhaps he finds infamy to be something "nice", but I am not sure if it is his prime motivaton, like, for example, as it was with the Zodiac. As far as I know, LISK never taunted the police or sought to have his work published in the media. He only taunted some people his victims knew, and mainly as a crime of opportunity because he found the numbers in the phones that were on his victims by the time he abducted/murdered them. I find that there is little ritualistic or histrionic about the GB4. It more just seems to carried out by someone evil who hates women and doesn't really care about anything else but his own motivations.

We can at least say that the LISK is intelligent enough to leave few tracks, and remains ever so quiet.

But that is just my take.

I also want to add that I refer to LISK as the killer of the GB4 only.

The one who wants “his work recognized” was in reference to the other killer of Valerie and Jessica due to the fact that he didn’t hide their bodies well at all, but made sure their identifying body parts were hidden and weren’t found until a decade later only by chance.

I do agree with your take that LISK (GB4 killer) doesn’t want infamy and I agree that’s not his motivation.

 

[SharD]

Bittrolff is/was a hunter.

 

[LR1]

I also want to add that I refer to LISK as the killer of the GB4 only.

The one who wants “his work recognized” was in reference to the other killer of Valerie and Jessica due to the fact that he didn’t hide their bodies well at all, but made sure their identifying body parts were hidden and weren’t found until a decade later only by chance.

I do agree with your take that LISK (GB4 killer) doesn’t want infamy and I agree that’s not his motivation.

Informing Melissa's sister what he had done is by definition wanting his work recognized.

 

[SharD]

But just by Melissa's sister, not by a wider audience. If he wanted that he'd have contacted a news outlet or the police. As far as I know, he never contacted the police or a news outlet.

 

[Mountain_Kat]

Informing Melissa's sister what he had done is by definition wanting his work recognized.

I don't think that was a case of him wanting his work recognized. My opinion has always been that, for whatever reason, disposing of the bodies of his victims is not an easy physical task for him. I think he would be a much more prolific killer if it were. He finds ways to stretch out the sick enjoyment without having to strain himself as much as possible. I think he wrapped his victims in burlap and placed then where he could see them every day, delighting in knowing how many other people road past those bodies and never even saw them. Superior...he digs that feeling. The phone calls to Amanda were just another way to stretch out his sick fantasies and continue to enjoy his superiority without having to excerpt himself physically. Except, I don't think he truly feels superior to anyone. This is a very emasculated, very inferior man...and he knows it. That's what drives him.

JMO

 

[SharD]

His victims were all petite, "easy" to move women. I think at least one of them was only 5'0.

 

[Mountain_Kat]

His victims were all petite, "easy" to move women. I think at least one of them was only 5'0.

True. But even petite women can be difficult to move if you have health issues.

 

[Sallyla]

His victims were all petite, "easy" to move women. I think at least one of them was only 5'0.

True. But even petite women can be difficult to move if you have health issues.

I think a few of them were under 5 foot. Melissa Barthelemy was only 4’9”.

I’ve always thought that health problems and difficulty carrying bodies was the cause. And even then he needdd to rig a burlap tool to facilitate movement.

Maybe he had, I dunno, something like a missing limb?

 

[SharD]

Or he is old and of low stamina.

Melissa's sister said the perp sounded like "an older white dude" who used out of use words like "halfbreed" and "whorehouse".

If so, it is another indication that we are likely to be dealing with two killers. Bitrolff seems fairly physically fit to me.

 

[eagleyeseymour]

I think a few of them were under 5 foot. Melissa Barthelemy was only 4’9”.

I’ve always thought that health problems and difficulty carrying bodies was the cause. And even then he needdd to rig a burlap tool to facilitate movement.

Maybe he had, I dunno, something like a missing limb?

It's been discussed that the burlaps primary function was to camouflage the remains in the brush while also allowing nature to work it's course , in other words, not slow down decomposition.

Possible it aided him in transport. I think it was likely readily available and hard to trace which is what made it practical for LISK. As far as size, I don't think the stature of the victims points to a physical limitation as much as a mental one.

LISK is deeply insecure and his selection of victims indicates that he may have had doubts about overpowering a larger woman. Either that or he is physically fit and has some kind of fetish, so the larger the size discrepancy the more kicks he get's out of it. This preference exists among a fair amount of above average sized men, even in partner selection, when they don't intend to kill their significant other.

 

[Sallyla]

It's been discussed that the burlaps primary function was to camouflage the remains in the brush while also allowing nature to work it's course , in other words, not slow down decomposition.

Possible it aided him in transport. I think it was likely readily available and hard to trace which is what made it practical for LISK. As far as size, I don't think the stature of the victims points to a physical limitation as much as a mental one.

LISK is deeply insecure and his selection of victims indicates that he may have had doubts about overpowering a larger woman. Either that or he is physically fit and has some kind of fetish, so the larger the size discrepancy the more kicks he get's out of it. This preference exists among a fair amount of above average sized men, even in partner selection, when they don't intend to kill their significant other.

Burlap may have been used for hiding but that doesn’t mean it wasn’t used for other purposes too. The only thing we know of himself is the belt. It’s possible that it was used as a means of restraint, but it’s equally possible it was a makeshift strap to carry.

If the earlier victims were related then its also possible that his ability to hide them reduced with age.

 

[eagleyeseymour]

Burlap may have been used for hiding but that doesn’t mean it wasn’t used for other purposes too. The only thing we know of himself is the belt. It’s possible that it was used as a means of restraint, but it’s equally possible it was a makeshift strap to carry.

If the earlier victims were related then its also possible that his ability to hide them reduced with age.

Good point Sallyla.

The burlap was indeed multi-functional. It clearly served all the purposes as LISK is still unapprehended. I think it made too much sense to use, meaning there was no better alternative considering it's durability (for transport), it's color (for hiding) , it's texture (for aeration) , it's availability and traceability.

I'm still wondering if there were any unique identifiers on the burlap sacks. One would think an expert in the field could analyze the fibers and learn more about, then again, the FBI was pushed away and they are the ones with such ability and resources.

The belt as well. My feeling is that both items were available, but wouldn't be linked to LISK via purchase. He isn't the type to buy a rubbermaid container at the local Walmart, these are items he had access to but items that no one would really notice were missing. I don't think the initials on the belt are his or a relatives. Just my take.