Coronavirus COVID-19 - Global Health Pandemic #85

[BayouBelle_LA]

And that pretty much sums up how the US got to this state, the people that influence are not following/demonstrating best practices...so how can the people (general) be expected to follow them/know what to do...blows my tiny mind for sure!!

It’s interesting that you quoted a post that said people in the audience are wearing masks, to make your point.

I have more faith in people. They are unique individuals, able to think for themselves.

 

[10ofRods]

<modsnip: Quoted post was removed as not an approved source>

Coronavirus causes heart attacks (and apparently high blood sugar and of course blood clots which cause both strokes and heart attacks).

It’s not an either/or thing but if a person wasn’t under treatment for any heart ailment and has a heart attack and upon autopsy has both Covid and blood clots - it should be classed as CoVid.

 

[10ofRods]

There's a good argument that it's unconstitutional, and you can download the actual lawsuit here, as it likely violates 42 U.S.C. § 264, 42 CFR 70.2, AND 5 U.S.C. § 706(2)(A) AND (C).

The problem is that the CDC overreached, and in doing so, created a financial problem for a specific grouping of citizens. That falls under the heading of "regulatory taking."

It's going to take a while for all these suits to trickle up to SCOTUS, and we'll just have to be patient.

On the quarantine thing -- yes, states have a right to quarantine sick individuals and the federal government has the right to shut state and federal borders to contain a pandemic.

What's in question is whether the state has a legal right to quarantine healthy people, which may also be deemed an infringement on their rights.

The simple fact is -- we really don't know what the rulings will be for a while, but when they're finally handed down, they will likely set precedent for future infections.

You missed my point. It’s entirely possible that without a law passed or an executive order, CDC doesn’t have that authority.

However, the act of quarantining is not unconstitutional and we’ve had laws on the books multiple places for years.

It is not unconstitutional to draft people, to make people stay in their houses at night (bomb threats), to keep people away from dangerous situations - or to quarantine.

Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness (perhaps in that order?) We don’t get to shout Fire! In a crowded theory.

And there’s plenty of precedent for quarantines. In fact, we quarantined cruise passengers by having the military transport them to military bases - whether they wanted to go or not.

 

[nhmemorymaker]

I can't find one person NOT wearing a mask.

Good for them!!!! They finally learned a lesson.

 

[mickey2942]

Healthy people do get an order of quarantine for two weeks, if they are a direct contact to a positive Covid case. This is even if they test negative the next day. It is still the full two weeks.

 

[GRT]

You missed my point. It’s entirely possible that without a law passed or an executive order, CDC doesn’t have that authority.

However, the act of quarantining is not unconstitutional and we’ve had laws on the books multiple places for years.

It is not unconstitutional to draft people, to make people stay in their houses at night (bomb threats), to keep people away from dangerous situations - or to quarantine.

Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness (perhaps in that order?) We don’t get to shout Fire! In a crowded theory.

And there’s plenty of precedent for quarantines. In fact, we quarantined cruise passengers by having the military transport them to military bases - whether they wanted to go or not.

I think you may be missing the point that state and federal quarantine powers are quite different and both have limits. This isn't about creating chaos by shouting fire in a crowded theater or being subject in the past to conscription, this is about how far a state can go when attempting to quarantine HEALTHY people. That cannot be too strongly emphasized, because we do have lots of precedents concerning the quarantine of infected people.

The law on this is not settled by a long shot and right now, legal experts on both sides can't seem to agree.

Do you think a state could quarantine healthy citizens until they starve to death? No? Neither do I, because limits exist, but they are to date, still undefined.

The Consitution and individual state laws are more complex than some seem to think. There's no legal slam-dunk here.

 

[GRT]

Healthy people do get an order of quarantine for two weeks, if they are a direct contact to a positive Covid case. This is even if they test negative the next day. It is still the full two weeks.

Is that a federal rule?

Or, a state rule?

There's a pretty big difference.

 

[GRT]

I can't find one person NOT wearing a mask.

That's kind of what I thought, too. Which made it seem doubly odd that some thought no one there was wearing a mask.

 

[cass523]

.

 

[nhmemorymaker]

I'd be willing to bet that's not a peer-reviewed study.

I'm always leery of studies that claim to measure IQ, but especially when they claim there's a point drop if the person they're studying didn't take the test before becoming ill. Where is the qualifying standard?

Something as simple as not eating breakfast can have an impact on the test-taker.

I understand what you are saying... but I believe much will eventually be peer reviewed on this subject. It is one of the most mentioned lingering effects of patients now...not as much in the beginning, I do not believe. But we have had to unlearn and learn more as we have gone along, and I really want to keep seeing data on the "long covid" data.

There is such potential for such personal medical and psychological damage and skyrocketing medical costs etc.

moo...moo...The "long covid" issues remind me of agent orange and other brain disease claims from veterans that the VA repeatedly reject. They die before they get the treatment they need. This could happen to long haul covid over time.

(there is plenty of data out there on this topic, and I don't mean to be off topic..... its just that I worry how this will be treated in the future with severe Covid symptoms...

 

[nhmemorymaker]

I think you may be missing the point that state and federal quarantine powers are quite different and both have limits. This isn't about creating chaos by shouting fire in a crowded theater or being subject in the past to conscription, this is about how far a state can go when attempting to quarantine HEALTHY people. That cannot be too strongly emphasized, because we do have lots of precedents concerning the quarantine of infected people.

The law on this is not settled by a long shot and right now, legal experts on both sides can't seem to agree.

Do you think a state could quarantine healthy citizens until they starve to death? No? Neither do I, because limits exist, but they are to date, still undefined.

The Consitution and individual state laws are more complex than some seem to think. There's no legal slam-dunk here.

Then how can a state close its borders to healthy people?

Are you saying that America should not ban healthy people coming in from other countries?

Are you suggesting that Canada is illegally preventing healthy Americans from coming into Canada?

 

[GRT]

We've discussed this before, and it's just incredibly sad and--in my opinion--counterproductive because life is about more than how long you live. It's also about your quality of life. We're failing and yet, no clear answer is on the horizon.

The hidden Covid-19 health crisis: Elderly people are dying from isolation

Roberg gasped when she saw her father’s gaunt body lying on the bed. After three months of separation, she missed her only chance to see her father by minutes.

His death certificate listed the cause of death as the progression of Alzheimer’s disease and “social isolation / failure to thrive related to COVID-19 restrictions.”

Social isolation was listed as a contributing cause of death for at least nine other Minnesotans — almost all long-term care residents — from June to September, according to state death records; no deaths in the previous two years cited social isolation as a cause.

One of the nurses who treated Peske later described his deterioration as a burning candle with no oxygen left to draw from the air. It was as if a light had gone out, Roberg said: “He couldn’t survive from being isolated.”

 

[ilovewings]

Coronavirus causes heart attacks (and apparently high blood sugar and of course blood clots which cause both strokes and heart attacks).

It’s not an either/or thing but if a person wasn’t under treatment for any heart ailment and has a heart attack and upon autopsy has both Covid and blood clots - it should be classed as CoVid.

<modsnip: referenced article was removed> there was lots of confusion and less knowledge as to the organs the virus affected- we have developed more knowledge as time as gone on. In April they were putting people on ventilators because that is what they did for pneumonia. They learned that was not necessarily the best way to treat patients. But it took time to figure it out and sadly, people died on ventilators that did more harm than good. It is a learning curve for this novel virus.

 

[Curiousobserver]

Coronavirus causes heart attacks (and apparently high blood sugar and of course blood clots which cause both strokes and heart attacks).

It’s not an either/or thing but if a person wasn’t under treatment for any heart ailment and has a heart attack and upon autopsy has both Covid and blood clots - it should be classed as CoVid.

That is how it works.

<modsnip: removed reference to non-approved source>

Here is a good recent version

Debunking the False Claim That COVID Death Counts Are Inflated

 

[mickey2942]

Is that a federal rule?

Or, a state rule?

There's a pretty big difference.

State, down to County Health Departments to identify persons for order

 

[nhmemorymaker]

<modsnip: referenced article was removed> there was lots of confusion and less knowledge as to the organs the virus affected- we have developed more knowledge as time as gone on. In April they were putting people on ventilators because that is what they did for pneumonia. They learned that was not necessarily the best way to treat patients. But it took time to figure it out and sadly, people died on ventilators that did more harm than good. It is a learning curve for this novel virus.

Yes, that was a huge learning curve. I also believe when they realized how severe the virus was on the heart, rather than the respiratory system. Those were some revolutionary learnings.

We now know that the Sars-CoV-2 virus gains access to the heart through enzymes called ACE2 and TMPRSS2, the biological locks it picks to slip into human cells. Because these enzymes are present across the body, in lung, heart, kidney, liver, gut and brain tissue, this allows the virus to move from one organ system to another.

I just wish wish wish that people who simply think this is a flu.... would TRY to learn something, rather than just fight freedoms, selfishly.
If you READ the words carefully in the previous paragraph, what goes away and what does not????

This article attached touches on two passions where we desperately need as much information as we can get. The lingering effects of long-haul Covid... the heart and the brain, most specifically.

Long Covid: the evidence of lingering heart damage

 

[GRT]

State, down to County Health Departments to identify persons for order

Correct, and that's my point. The federal government would be treading on thin ice to try and implement a nationwide quarantine because the Constitution gives most of that power to the states. The federal government, however, can quarantine at the borders, can close the borders, and can participate in keeping the virus from spreading from one state to another.

Earlier, someone had mentioned how other nations were able to shut down more effecitvely than we were, and that's why. Because we were designed as a Republic based on federalism and we are a nation of "states." When each state joined the Union, they were granted certain rights.

However, even the states have limitations on what they can do, because the citizens have the right to due process if they are being quarantined and they are not sick, have not been sick, and feel fine.

So, it's a quandry and there are no quick and easy answers. Dozens of lawsuits have been filed against governors and, like the one I pointed out earlier today (against the CDC and the Trump Administration), and it's just going to take time for them to work their way up through the courts.

Hopefully, by the next time we have a pandemic (never, I hope) all of these issues will have been resolved and we'll be able to proceed on a sound basis.

 

[nhmemorymaker]

Immunity to Covid-19 wanes, British study finds - CNN

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Trump Rallies Are Often Followed by Increases in Local COVID-19 Cases - Center for American Progress

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How Trump and Bolsonaro Broke Latin America’s Covid-19 Defenses
The two presidents drove out 10,000 Cuban doctors and nurses. They defunded the region’s leading health agency. They wrongly pushed hydroxychloroquine as a cure.

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‘Covid, Covid, Covid’: Pres. Trump says U.S. numbers improving, claims pandemic coverage will end after election | KXAN Austin

“WASHINGTON, D.C. (KXAN) — Despite U.S. cases of COVID-19 reaching close to 9 million, Pres. Donald Trump said Tuesday that America is “rounding the turn” on the pandemic.

In a tweet, Trump claimed the media is covering coronavirus for political reasons, tweeting: “Until November 4th., Fake News Media is going full on Covid, Covid, Covid. We are rounding the turn. 99.9%.”

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Trump claims the worsening U.S. coronavirus outbreak is a 'Fake News Media Conspiracy' even as hospitalizations rise

• President Donald Trump claimed Monday that the worsening coronavirus outbreak in the U.S. is a “Fake News Media Conspiracy.”
• Trump has repeatedly downplayed the virus and has insisted that the U.S. has more cases than any other country only because the nation tests more people.
• Public health officials and infectious disease experts dispute that claim, saying the rate of tests that are positive and hospitalizations are on the rise in several states.

I know we discussed Sturgis and the long long lasting chain of events. But there is a reason why South Dakota has the highest positivity rates in the country. I read articles at nauseum, and a number of them were posted much earlier in this thread............ But it was absolutely impossible to track what happened after Sturgis. There were articles about people in all the states around SD, who KNEW that is where they got it, but there was no effective tracing and tracing in place to even get them addressed as Covid Positive/Sturgis connected.

Yet another horrible shortcoming of the US.... Horrible Horrible Tracking and Tracing. Clearly, many other countries have shown that it has been a godsent, being able to keep track of real spikes and spreads.

All we do is hold our breath for 10-14 days to see what happens to the numbers. Yeah, that does a lot of good.

Trump’s rally in The Villages leaves lingering fears about COVID-19 spread

 

[nhmemorymaker]

There's a good argument that it's unconstitutional, and you can download the actual lawsuit here, as it likely violates 42 U.S.C. § 264, 42 CFR 70.2, AND 5 U.S.C. § 706(2)(A) AND (C).

The problem is that the CDC overreached, and in doing so, created a financial problem for a specific grouping of citizens. That falls under the heading of "regulatory taking."

It's going to take a while for all these suits to trickle up to SCOTUS, and we'll just have to be patient.

On the quarantine thing -- yes, states have a right to quarantine sick individuals and the federal government has the right to shut state and federal borders to contain a pandemic.

What's in question is whether the state has a legal right to quarantine healthy people, which may also be deemed an infringement on their rights.

The simple fact is -- we really don't know what the rulings will be for a while, but when they're finally handed down, they will likely set precedent for future infections.

Please remind me.............. where did the CDC overreach??? I think i missed something........

 

[GRT]

Please remind me.............. where did the CDC overreach??? I think i missed something........

An "alleged" overreach--the courts haven't ruled yet.

But, that would be in banning landlords from evicting tenants that don't pay rent.

My position is that it's overreach because those landlords cannot pay their bills if their tenants don't pay rent. My thoughts are that if the CDC is going to make that rule, the CDC needs to compensate the landlords for their loss.