Israel Keyes: General Discussion
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cujenn81
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I agree -- TCB is the best source for information regarding Keyes and his victims. I read American Predator but didn't really learn anything new (as I had already listened to all of the TCB episodes), and I don't agree with her biohacking theory (that Keyes had an elective lap band surgery in Mexico because all of the evidence suggests it was his girlfriend). With that said, Maureen Callahan worked tirelessly to obtain the police files on Keyes and even sued LE (with her own money!) after they denied her FOIA request. That legal action ultimately resulted in the release of those files to the public. I am extremely grateful for Callahan's dogged effort because we wouldn't know anything without those files.
I'm still extremely curious about so many of the unknown aspects of this case. Why did the FBI go above and beyond to bargain with Keyes and give him what he wanted? Why were they so secretive about the information they gleaned from him even after his death? How did Keyes join the military with out a social security number? It's all just so mindboggling.
ETA: I'm also curious about why his case file is classified as domestic terroism.
Falling Down
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Far as a SSN is concerned, I'm, not even 100% sure where he was born. Prior to his teen years, I have no idea where he and his family lived.
How he had a relative in remote Constable, NY. I'm vaguely familiar with that area myself, however when it comes to Keyes' connections to Constable I don't know anything about them. He enlisted via MEPS in Albany, yet he'd "come of age" in WA State. An entire world away, really.
I'm very curious about the New York State connections and Keyes, how that all happened, came about, whatever. My hunch is there's a "native" connection, perhaps with the Mohawk reservation(s) nearby to Constable, however I have come across nothing online about how he landed in NY to be able to enlist at the Army detachment at MEPS Albany.
JMO
jenves
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His family bought the property in Constable and the entire family moved there and lived briefly before moving on to Maine. IK did not move with them and his dad signed the property over to him. This all took place around 1997, so his home address was NY. I don’t have the exact sources, but it can be found in the FBI files.
Murkywaters
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The new season of True Crime Bulls*** has just started. I recently listened to both seasons 1 & 2 on Keyes and wow, Josh Hallmark really did his due diligence in investigating this case. I'm really impressed with what he's been able to uncover. I think quite of few of the Missing Persons cases he has linked to Keyes are high probabilities.
In case anyone has forgotten, here are some of the clues Keyes gave to the FBI regarding his other victims.
- A 1998 victim. Keyes told the FBI in 2o12, he had been two different people for 14 years. Josh believes this victim to be Suzanne Lyall.
- A male-female couple Keyes killed in Washington between July 2001 and 2005. It is unknown if this couple was Washington state residents or abducted from a neighboring state. Josh believes this couple to be Kami Vollendroff & Eugene Hyatt who disappeared from Boiler Bay State Park in Depoe Bay, Oregon on Nov 21, 2001.
- Two separate murder victims that were taken from or killed in Washington between 2005 and 2006, disposing of one of the bodies in Lake Crescent. The FBI believe this victim to be female.
- A victim all but confirmed to be Debra Feldman who disappeared from Hackensack, NJ on April 8, 2009.
- Keyes inferred there was at least one victim taken from Western Washington, and another victim from Eastern Washington.
- A white girl who drove a vintage car and had a wealthy grandmother. (This was mentioned in an FBI news conference, however not included in the FBI files Josh received) it is not clear whether this victim is unique or one of his previous Washington state victims.
- One victim whose body was discovered and cause of death was determined to be accidental. Josh believes this victim to be Alice Ida Looney.
- A victim killed on Keyes boat, Keyes purchased a boat on April 9, 2005 and began reupholstering the boat in the weeks after he bought it. The FBI discovered blood evidence and bones beneath the upholstery of the boat indicating somebody was killed on the boat prior to Keyes reupholstering it. This would mean somebody was killed on the boat sometime between April 10 and May 1, 2005. Josh found only one unsolved disappearance that occurred within 500 miles of Neah Bay in the 3 weeks following the purchase of the boat. Wendy Marie Dehoop who disappeared from Eugene, Oregon on April 22, 2005.
In case anyone has forgotten, here are some of the clues Keyes gave to the FBI regarding his other victims.
- A 1998 victim. Keyes told the FBI in 2o12, he had been two different people for 14 years. Josh believes this victim to be Suzanne Lyall.
- A male-female couple Keyes killed in Washington between July 2001 and 2005. It is unknown if this couple was Washington state residents or abducted from a neighboring state. Josh believes this couple to be Kami Vollendroff & Eugene Hyatt who disappeared from Boiler Bay State Park in Depoe Bay, Oregon on Nov 21, 2001.
- Two separate murder victims that were taken from or killed in Washington between 2005 and 2006, disposing of one of the bodies in Lake Crescent. The FBI believe this victim to be female.
- A victim all but confirmed to be Debra Feldman who disappeared from Hackensack, NJ on April 8, 2009.
- Keyes inferred there was at least one victim taken from Western Washington, and another victim from Eastern Washington.
- A white girl who drove a vintage car and had a wealthy grandmother. (This was mentioned in an FBI news conference, however not included in the FBI files Josh received) it is not clear whether this victim is unique or one of his previous Washington state victims.
- One victim whose body was discovered and cause of death was determined to be accidental. Josh believes this victim to be Alice Ida Looney.
- A victim killed on Keyes boat, Keyes purchased a boat on April 9, 2005 and began reupholstering the boat in the weeks after he bought it. The FBI discovered blood evidence and bones beneath the upholstery of the boat indicating somebody was killed on the boat prior to Keyes reupholstering it. This would mean somebody was killed on the boat sometime between April 10 and May 1, 2005. Josh found only one unsolved disappearance that occurred within 500 miles of Neah Bay in the 3 weeks following the purchase of the boat. Wendy Marie Dehoop who disappeared from Eugene, Oregon on April 22, 2005.
cujenn81
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I’d love to know what you think about his possible involvement in the Lauren Spierer case. I’ve always believed the guys at her school were involved, but knowing Keyes was in Indiana on the day that she disappeared changes things for me. My over/under is now 70/30.
(70% - friends and 30% - Keyes)
Murkywaters
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I think Keyes is a good candidate for Lauren Spierer. Yeah, her ''friends'' are suspicious, but so was Samantha Koenig's boyfriend. I think many things line up for Keyes in Lauren's case.
On the very morning of Lauren's abduction, Keyes passed through 3 tolls on the Indiana toll road which crosses Northern Indiana. Josh Hallmark also stated of all the FBI files he received, The Lauren Spierer tip was not in any of the files. Indicating the FBI has redacted documents regarding their investigation into the Spierer connection.
Also, even more telling. Josh has stated sources close to the investigation stated Keyes got visibly upset when shown a photo of Lauren Spierer and denied involvement and continued to veer the conservation away from Lauren Spierer. It appears Keyes had the same visceral reaction to Lauren's photo as he had with Debra Feldmans.
MesquiteO21
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i don't think it was anything other than they truly believed he was responsible for a lot of murders across the country (and possibly abroad too) and wanted to get the info any way they could. It wasn't like they were unaware that they were being played by Keyes, but they swallowed their pride for the chance to get as much info as they could out of him.
Your other questions i agree with. Why they are still holding SO much close to the vest is interesting and perplexing. Lends itself to conspiracy theories that maybe they think Keyes had some accomplices along the way that are still alive (though i personally find this hard to believe).
The domestic terrorism bit is also interesting, and again would maybe lend some support to the idea that they are investigating links he had to other people who are still alive. We do know Keyes had a sort of six degrees of separation to Tim McVeigh, so who knows what other white supremacist terrorists he may have had links to.
MesquiteO21
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those are all interesting points...and LS's friends acting shady and suspicious after her disappearance (because let's be honest, they did), could be indicative of a fear/guilt for what they DIDN'T do that night rather than what they might've done, e.g.,not watching her closely. Maybe they didn't want to talk not because they were directly involved, but because they were scared of mistakes and poor judgment calls they made that night.
dub
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Interesting. I was aware of Keyes crossing through Indiana that day, but I haven't listened to TCBS and hadn't heard about the absence of the files or Keyes' reaction.
I've always felt like neither Keyes nor Lauren's friends were responsible for her disappearance. I went through the timeline of Keyes in Indiana vs. Lauren's disappearance at one point and it looked to me to be almost impossibly tight--not 100% impossible, but extraordinarily unlikely that he could have done it.
I wish I could recall how I determined that, and wonder if I made a mistake somewhere in the process.
He was not religious (an atheist) or a deep thinker. I don't believe he was racist either. Trying to read into his actions or thoughts as having some deep meaning is probably not worth the time. I'm sure he would take pleasure from knowing people waste their time analyzing his words (like the suicide note).
He was in it for the thrill only. He was a very clever person who spent a lot of time on his own and turned his frustrations into doing heinous crimes just for the thrill of getting away with it. Killing animals and burglary were childhood thrills, and when his life got difficult he looked for that thrill again. Money was also part of it so bank robbing and kidnapping gave him some. Having a secret life while acting normal was part of the thrill.
He made mistakes in the Koenig case that were uncharacteristic, which makes me think it was driven in part by suicidal tendencies.
He was in it for the thrill only. He was a very clever person who spent a lot of time on his own and turned his frustrations into doing heinous crimes just for the thrill of getting away with it. Killing animals and burglary were childhood thrills, and when his life got difficult he looked for that thrill again. Money was also part of it so bank robbing and kidnapping gave him some. Having a secret life while acting normal was part of the thrill.
He made mistakes in the Koenig case that were uncharacteristic, which makes me think it was driven in part by suicidal tendencies.
How the heck did someone find that? That's the "shed" he put Samantha Koenig in. Baffling that he was able to remove that rack for the Koenig kidnapping by himself, then put it back on. That made his truck difficult to identify. I think the APD said there were 4000 white trucks in Anchorage similar to what they saw in the camera pointing at the Home Depot lot
Murkywaters
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https://player.fm/series/true-crime-bullsh/ep-13-real-bad-news Josh explains the absence of files at the 17:23 min mark.
https://player.fm/series/true-crime-bullsh/ep-0215-abyss On this episode at the the 01:01:09 Josh talks about Keyes reaction had to being shown Lauren's photo.
Murkywaters
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Oh, and also there were a couple other cases possibly connected to Keyes i forgot to mention in my previous post.
Delmar Wayne Sample – The Charley Project Missing from Centralia, WA since March 4, 2005 is a case to which the FBI spent a very significant amount of time and resources investigating. Sample was planning on going hiking in Tillamook, OR, however his vehicle was found abandoned 200 miles north of Tillamook, OR near Lake Quinault in Quinault, WA. His sleeping bag and food were found inside the vehicle. There is a ‘’dark spot’’ in Israel’s timeline from March 2 -8. Additionally, Keyes went canoeing on Lake Quinault on March 1, 2005 where Sample's vehicle was found abandoned three days later.
Stephen Michael Mason – The Charley Project went missing while camping in the Olympic National Forest near Sequim, Washington on June 20, 2006. He and and wife went camping together, however they got into an argument and she left the campsite. The next day Mason went to friends house and asked him to return his vehicle and wifes purse back to her. Mason however, wanted to continue his camping trip and his friend drove him back to the campsite and left him there. There are several factors that make Stephen a likely Keyes victim. Stephen disappeared less than a mile from where Keyes was known to go shooting, LE also discovered one of Keyes ''kill kits'' in the area where Mason disappeared. Even more interestingly, Mike was a handyman at the VFW in Sequim, WA where Keyes was a member. Keyes was posted to the very same VFW where Stephen Mason worked at.
One other case that also appears in the Keyes FBI files is Kimberly Ann Forbes – The Charley Project missing from Hood River, OR since Oct 30, 2004. There are a couple factors that make Kimberly a possible victim of Keyes,
Keyes whereabouts on October 21 2004 show his cell phone traveling south-east from Neah Bay, WA with it pinging later that afternoon in University Place, Tacoma, and than a final time in Kent, WA. His records are blank until January 10. Hood River is 60 miles from Keyes family land in Maupin, OR and en-route between Neah Bay and Corvallis, OR. Keyes admitted to returning to that land multiple times when living in Neah Bay. Keyes was also said to have frequented a bar in Troutdale, OR. This bar is four miles from where Kimberly's car was found. Keyes admitted to the FBI that he would move cars long distances to throw off investigators. Kimberly's car was found abandoned 55 miles from where she was last seen.
Delmar Wayne Sample – The Charley Project Missing from Centralia, WA since March 4, 2005 is a case to which the FBI spent a very significant amount of time and resources investigating. Sample was planning on going hiking in Tillamook, OR, however his vehicle was found abandoned 200 miles north of Tillamook, OR near Lake Quinault in Quinault, WA. His sleeping bag and food were found inside the vehicle. There is a ‘’dark spot’’ in Israel’s timeline from March 2 -8. Additionally, Keyes went canoeing on Lake Quinault on March 1, 2005 where Sample's vehicle was found abandoned three days later.
Stephen Michael Mason – The Charley Project went missing while camping in the Olympic National Forest near Sequim, Washington on June 20, 2006. He and and wife went camping together, however they got into an argument and she left the campsite. The next day Mason went to friends house and asked him to return his vehicle and wifes purse back to her. Mason however, wanted to continue his camping trip and his friend drove him back to the campsite and left him there. There are several factors that make Stephen a likely Keyes victim. Stephen disappeared less than a mile from where Keyes was known to go shooting, LE also discovered one of Keyes ''kill kits'' in the area where Mason disappeared. Even more interestingly, Mike was a handyman at the VFW in Sequim, WA where Keyes was a member. Keyes was posted to the very same VFW where Stephen Mason worked at.
One other case that also appears in the Keyes FBI files is Kimberly Ann Forbes – The Charley Project missing from Hood River, OR since Oct 30, 2004. There are a couple factors that make Kimberly a possible victim of Keyes,
Keyes whereabouts on October 21 2004 show his cell phone traveling south-east from Neah Bay, WA with it pinging later that afternoon in University Place, Tacoma, and than a final time in Kent, WA. His records are blank until January 10. Hood River is 60 miles from Keyes family land in Maupin, OR and en-route between Neah Bay and Corvallis, OR. Keyes admitted to returning to that land multiple times when living in Neah Bay. Keyes was also said to have frequented a bar in Troutdale, OR. This bar is four miles from where Kimberly's car was found. Keyes admitted to the FBI that he would move cars long distances to throw off investigators. Kimberly's car was found abandoned 55 miles from where she was last seen.
cujenn81
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I totally agree 100%. As much as it pains me to admit that Keyes was clever (as I’m sure he would love to hear it), it’s pretty obvious that he was. I think he became so desensitized over time that he didn’t get much of a thrill anymore. I think he was bored and tired of the charade. I think boredom led to feelings of indifference, which led him to take greater risks.
He went on quite the crime spree in a relatively short period of time — murdered Samantha Koenig, robbed a bank in Texas, burglarized a home before setting it on fire — and deviated from his typical MO in drastic ways.
1. He kidnapped a victim from a local business.
2. He murdered that same victim in a shed in the driveway of his own home with his daughter sleeping mere feet away inside the house.
3. He toyed with the victim’s BF by sending text messages from the victim’s cell phone and posing as the victim.
4. He communicated with the victim’s family via text messages and demanded a ransom.
5. He posed the victim, took a picture of her dead body, and then gave it to the police and her family when he requested the ransom money.
6. He withdrew money from the victim’s bank account on multiple occasions.
I think all of these things really speaks to how little Keyes cared at that point. Especially when you compare them to the lengths he was willing to go to avoid detection previously — burying caches, taking cross country flights, traveling to foreign countries that don’t care about their missing citizens, renting cars and driving for hundreds of miles, going dark and paying only with cash, and the list just goes on and on.
dub
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I’m definitely aware of Del Sample and Mike Mason, and have looked into them as possible Keyes victims.
I thought Sample was an extremely high probability victim but I THINK (although don’t have a source off hand) that the FBI said they had almost for sure ruled Keyes out in his case. They also more or less ruled Keyes out on another guy in Washington, I think his name was Gil Gilman, who at one point I was almost certain Keyes was responsible for.
Oddly though (as with so many things in Keyes’ case) there was absolutely no rationale given as to why they thought he couldn’t have done it.
I have not read such a thing in reference to Mason though, and it would seem that he remains a strong possibility. For whatever reason I thought of him as a lower probability Keyes victim than Sample or Gilman, but higher than just about everyone else who disappeared in that timeframe in the PNW.
I had not heard of Kimberly Forbes, hmm could be, some things fit with what’s known of Keyes and others not so much.
Just curious, you mentioned Corvallis but what is the connection there? Also (not to be contrarian, just I grew up in the PNW and know the region well) Hood River is not on the way from Neah Bay to Corvallis. Hood River is like 45min east of Portland and Corvallis is an hour and a half south-southwest of PDX, with no real direct route between them that I know of.
dub
Fnu Lnu
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Also sorry for the double post, but there was another guy I looked into a while back who disappeared I believe in like 08 or 09 from central WA, I want to say the Wenatchee area. I always thought he was a possibility for the eastern district victim but right now cannot for the life of me remember his name. Maybe first name David or Douglas?
I’m pretty sure they found his body in the woods a couple years ago so I doubt he’s on charley project anymore, I know it’s not a lot to work with but any idea who I’m talking about? I can’t think of it and it’s bugging me now.
I’m pretty sure they found his body in the woods a couple years ago so I doubt he’s on charley project anymore, I know it’s not a lot to work with but any idea who I’m talking about? I can’t think of it and it’s bugging me now.
Murkywaters
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Sorry! I meant to say Colville, not Corvallis, I don't know the area at all, so I'm only going by what Josh Hallmark states in his podcast.
https://player.fm/series/true-crime-bullsh/ep-0211-keyes-cars Kimberly's case is discussed at the 17:30 mark.
https://player.fm/series/true-crime-bullsh/the-vfw-keyes-update The information regarding Mason is discussed in this episode at the 12:00 mark. I think the fact Keyes was stationed to the same VFW where Stephen Mason worked makes him a even stronger candidate than what i thought before.
Murkywaters
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The National Missing and Unidentified Persons System (NamUs) Was the Wenatchee MP you are thinking of Gregrey Seamons Brown? I have a Word document where i archive info from the True Crime Bullsh** podcast. Josh threw around quite a few names, Gregrey was included as a possible victim in one of the episodes discussing hiking MP cases that could be connected to Keyes.
Gregrey Seamons Brown (1956-2005) • FamilySearch
Man missing in Rachel Lake area'He is unfamiliar with the area'
dub
Fnu Lnu
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Oh it’s all good, but Josh definitely has his [edit: wires] crossed somewhere because Hood River is WAY out of the way going from Neah Bay to Colville, way more so than Neah Bay to Corvallis haha
Maybe he’s thinking of Neah Bay to Maupin, if that’s the case it’s right along the way.
And yeah the VFW info does bump Mason up the list for sure, I was not aware of that either.
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