Found Deceased Spain - Esther Dingley, from UK, missing in the Pyrenees, November 2020

[talby66]

I think the key word is "expected". If the search has been called off it would be logical to not expect her to be found. Seems a reasonable statement to me, or are you implying they know something we don't?

Edited to add the quote from the facebook page in proper context:

It actually says "No further updates are expected until Monday earliest,however any major developments will be published through all our usual channels".​

I was perhaps being a little harsh but during a missing persons case, to make a statement which suggests they won't be appearing anytime soon always looks a bit poor to me. A statement which said " we will be issuing regular updates and will of course report any significant developments immediately" would have been much better. The "criticism" was aimed at LBT, not the family, they are supposed to be professionals at this, aren't they?

 

[Huffbuff]

I added the same thing to my post, we must have been typing at the same time!

I think quoting out of context to imply criticism of the victim's family is a bit unfair.

I agree!

 

[talby66]

As is probably clear I don’t think LBT have made a great start as media advisor/spokesperson but it’s not all bad news.
It’s not unreasonable to use an experienced organisation to help with a situation one has no experience in and which can help with different law enforcement/search organisations around the world. I’m not as sure that using them as your spokesperson is ideal, I don’t see why an educated person cannot speak for themselves, in fact there probably isn’t much speaking to be done now, is there?

However, I like to look for silver linings and I think I have found one, if LBT are “taking over” this case and want help from the general public I think it would be reasonable to ask them to clarify certain information so that misunderstandings don’t continue to rear their heads and we all start from a known, stable position. To this end I would like them to answer the following questions:

What was the exact date that Esther first set off on her solo hiking venture? Just sets the scene a bit.
Where are the dogs? a number of people think they are with Dan, I think they are in the UK and have been for some time.
If the dogs are in the UK how long have they been there and why?
How often were Dan and Esther in contact? by message, whatsapp, phone etc
What was the longest time that Dan and Esther were not in contact before she disappeared?
How often did Esther contact her father?
When was the BBC interview about their travels done?
Can the BBC interviewer confirm that Esther was speaking live?
On the 22nd Nov did Esther just send Dan a photo or did she speak to him? what was the time of this?
On the 22nd Nov did Esther give Dan her itinerary?
Did Esther give the local Guardia Civil her itinerary? How did she do this given her limited Spanish language?
If Esther did give the local GC her itinerary did she ever give any other officials her itinerary for previous hikes?
Was it unusual for Esther to meet someone hiking, have a lift etc and not tell Dan a bit more about them (particularly the hiker from the 19th Nov)? eg nationality, age
Given Esther mentioned the lift on the 19th Nov why did she not mention the lift on the 21st Nov? I realise that they may not be able to answer this.
Why did Esther go back to the Pic de Sauvegarde on the 22nd Nov having been there the day before?
What did Esther do on the 20th Nov?
Why wasn’t there a facebook posting for the 21st Novwhereas Instagram shows the photos from Pic de Sauvegarde?
Does Esther’s phone back up the images somewhere and can the exact time and locations be seen and provided? particularly those from the 19th and 22nd.
Why did Esther turn off her phone? Dan says the signal up there was good, did she not have a powerbank or similar (solar maybe)?
Did Esther turn her phone off on any other occasions, if so how long for?
When Esther went out on the 22nd how long was she intending to be out given that we think she was due back at the farmhouse by the 25th?
How far away was the camping car parked? given that she had a lift back to it someone must have been able to park closer, why didn’t she park closer?
On what day and what time did Dan raise the alarm and how?

I’m sure some people know the answers to these questions but I think it would be good if they were official and all in one place.

If anyone has any questions they would like to ask please feel free to add them. I’ll send them the questions in a day or so (to give time for people to object to the questions or add any).

 

[Grouse]

The "criticism" was aimed at LBT, not the family, they are supposed to be professionals at this, aren't they?

I believe the Lucie Blackman Trust is a charity rather than a professional PR company (although I don't think the Blackman family are involved directly now).

I think the family did the right thing enlisting their help.

 

[Legally Bland]

As is probably clear I don’t think LBT have made a great start as media advisor/spokesperson but it’s not all bad news.
It’s not unreasonable to use an experienced organisation to help with a situation one has no experience in and which can help with different law enforcement/search organisations around the world. I’m not as sure that using them as your spokesperson is ideal, I don’t see why an educated person cannot speak for themselves, in fact there probably isn’t much speaking to be done now, is there?

However, I like to look for silver linings and I think I have found one, if LBT are “taking over” this case and want help from the general public I think it would be reasonable to ask them to clarify certain information so that misunderstandings don’t continue to rear their heads and we all start from a known, stable position. To this end I would like them to answer the following questions:

Snipped by me. It's a charity to help families of missing/murdered people abroad. Being educated doesn't mean someone is capable of handling media enquiries, especially at a time of stress. And it's one stress that LBT can remove by being the focal point.

 

[Grouse]

Snipped by me. It's a charity to help families of missing/murdered people abroad. Being educated doesn't mean someone is capable of handling media enquiries, especially at a time of stress. And it's one stress that LBT can remove by being the focal point.

You beat me to it. I was just going to comment on the "why an educated person cannot speak for themselves" statement and ask why on earth would anyone expect a distressed relative to field the questions (other than when being formally interviewed of course), especially when you then follow it with such an exhaustive list of questions.

 

[Grouse]

The "event" took place on the 2 dec, it was reported a couple of days ago, why couldn't Dan simply call the police and ask (aren't they giving him support and updates?) instead they now have a spokesperson and splash it all over the paper, how come the new spokesperson with all their various "contacts" didn't find this out before going public?

<modsnip>

I think it was the Daily Mail that splashed it not LBT. They ran the story of the witness who took the photo. She had contacted the authorites and been "fobbed off" so I'm guessing she contacted the paper. I'm not their biggest fan but if her statement is accurate this is one occasion when I would in fact support the Daily Mail for publishing a story.

You do seem to have a bit of a concern over the involvement and capabilities of LBT, can I ask why?

 

[RickshawFan]

It's worth remembering that when foreign hikers go missing on solo treks in mountainous country, SAR teams put themselves at personal risk to rescue people, especially those not using basic safety items like an emergency beacon. This extends to the broader police and volunteers during time of a deadly pandemic. This is why in the NZ lockdowns, we banned our own citizens from many outdoor activities, precisely because we didn't want to expose police and volunteers to COVID danger when people inevitably get in difficulty and need to be rescued.

As such, comments about bungling cops are perhaps best left unsaid - especially for a hiker, who while likely complying with the precise letter of the lockdown rules, might have thought better of what the intent of those rules was.

I think folks are missing the fact that though the start of her hike was in Spain and subject to Spain’s COVID restrictions, most of (at least this leg of) the hike was in France. Presumably, France’s COVID rules applied for the days ED was hiking in France, even though her approach was from Spain.

 

[Grouse]

I think folks are missing the fact that though the start of her hike was in Spain and subject to Spain’s COVID restrictions, most of (at least this leg of) the hike was in France. Presumably, France’s COVID rules applied for the days ED was hiking in France, even though her approach was from Spain.

I think you're right, much of that leg was over the border in France (if she made it that far) and it was in lockdown. There's a lot being made of the flouting of Covid restrictions on Esther's part but I'm not sure of the relevance of that in the case TBH.

 

[Inverloch]

I think you're right, much of that leg was over the border in France (if she made it that far) and it was in lockdown. There's a lot being made of the flouting of Covid restrictions on Esther's part but I'm not sure of the relevance of that in the case TBH.

It's relevant in the first instance because it explains why there were unlikely to be many witnesses.

Also, it highlights an element of 'rule-breaking' behaviour that may offer an insight into Esther's character? The pandemic has certainly revealed a strain of exceptionalism in some people, who seem to feel that inconvenient rules needn't apply to them. This may be reflected in a careless attitude to risky behaviours, as well? All part of the picture.

 

[PeggyHenry]

It's relevant in the first instance because it explains why there were unlikely to be many witnesses.

Also, it highlights an element of 'rule-breaking' that may offer an insight into Esther's character? The pandemic has certainly revealed a strain of exceptionalism in some people, who seem to feel that inconvenient rules needn't apply to them. This may be reflected in a careless attitude to risky behaviours, as well? All part of the picture.

Yes, it is a part of the picture and therefore worth taking note of ... but difficult to say how relevant. The DM (and yes they are sensationalists) seemed to be trying to make a point of the fact that while Esther was willing to go hiking regardless of lockdown, Dan was not. However, hiking in the mountains is probably a very low risk activity and was more important to her wellbeing than being cooped up. I cant see how it will turn out to be very relevant to what actually has happened to Esther though..

 

[Grouse]

It's relevant in the first instance because it explains why there were unlikely to be many witnesses.

Also, it highlights an element of 'rule-breaking' behaviour that may offer an insight into Esther's character? The pandemic has certainly revealed a strain of exceptionalism in some people, who seem to feel that inconvenient rules needn't apply to them. This may be reflected in a careless attitude to risky behaviours, as well? All part of the picture.

I agree to an extent, though I think she based herself in Spain to avoid breaking lockdown laws. A part of her last trek was to be over the border in France, technically an area in lockdown, but as you say unlikely to be many people around.

That's still wrong and I don't say I condone it, but in reality I don't think that in itself points to a careless attitude.

Edit: I see Peggy beat me to it while I was typing!

 

[PeggyHenry]

No we don't you're right, but we do have a witness report of someone seen sleeping in the van. If true, that is worthy of comment on a thread such as this IMO. Maybe it was harsh to imply criticism, perhaps it's the norm in some places for police to sleep in a victim's home. All depends on how reliable the witness's statement is.

Edit: I should probably have said "missing person" rather than "victim" at this stage

I know I remember reading that the person who spotted the person in the van said they had brown hair. I am trying to find this report that mentioned the brown hair.

5 mins later - so frustrating - cannot find the report which mentioned brown hair. I am 100% certain I read it and whilst it may not be important I still want to find it. I know that it wasn't in the first few reports I read about the mystery person in van.. it was later on and it really struck me for some reason.

 

[mrjitty]

You beat me to it. I was just going to comment on the "why an educated person cannot speak for themselves" statement and ask why on earth would anyone expect a distressed relative to field the questions (other than when being formally interviewed of course), especially when you then follow it with such an exhaustive list of questions.

Right

A mate of mine who was a high end PR stepped in when a family friend went missing (drowning)

If you haven't worked in the industry, you might not appreciate how much time goes into fielding media inquiries on a high profile case.

It's not just speaking at a press conference or a doorstep .

There is all the work of preparing statements and resources (saves a hell of a lot of time), but then endless calls with journalists etc. Doing all that work reduces stress on the family hugely - and as you say, freaked out family are not well placed to suddenly learn how to deal with national and international media.

And we've all seen cases where family members have decided to front media themselves in the early days and it can be disastrous even when they are innocent!

 

[Sjm_qc]

As is probably clear I don’t think LBT have made a great start as media advisor/spokesperson but it’s not all bad news.
It’s not unreasonable to use an experienced organisation to help with a situation one has no experience in and which can help with different law enforcement/search organisations around the world. I’m not as sure that using them as your spokesperson is ideal, I don’t see why an educated person cannot speak for themselves, in fact there probably isn’t much speaking to be done now, is there?

However, I like to look for silver linings and I think I have found one, if LBT are “taking over” this case and want help from the general public I think it would be reasonable to ask them to clarify certain information so that misunderstandings don’t continue to rear their heads and we all start from a known, stable position. To this end I would like them to answer the following questions:

What was the exact date that Esther first set off on her solo hiking venture? Just sets the scene a bit.
Where are the dogs? a number of people think they are with Dan, I think they are in the UK and have been for some time.
If the dogs are in the UK how long have they been there and why?
How often were Dan and Esther in contact? by message, whatsapp, phone etc
What was the longest time that Dan and Esther were not in contact before she disappeared?
How often did Esther contact her father?
When was the BBC interview about their travels done?
Can the BBC interviewer confirm that Esther was speaking live?
On the 22nd Nov did Esther just send Dan a photo or did she speak to him? what was the time of this?
On the 22nd Nov did Esther give Dan her itinerary?
Did Esther give the local Guardia Civil her itinerary? How did she do this given her limited Spanish language?
If Esther did give the local GC her itinerary did she ever give any other officials her itinerary for previous hikes?
Was it unusual for Esther to meet someone hiking, have a lift etc and not tell Dan a bit more about them (particularly the hiker from the 19th Nov)? eg nationality, age
Given Esther mentioned the lift on the 19th Nov why did she not mention the lift on the 21st Nov? I realise that they may not be able to answer this.
Why did Esther go back to the Pic de Sauvegarde on the 22nd Nov having been there the day before?
What did Esther do on the 20th Nov?
Why wasn’t there a facebook posting for the 21st Novwhereas Instagram shows the photos from Pic de Sauvegarde?
Does Esther’s phone back up the images somewhere and can the exact time and locations be seen and provided? particularly those from the 19th and 22nd.
Why did Esther turn off her phone? Dan says the signal up there was good, did she not have a powerbank or similar (solar maybe)?
Did Esther turn her phone off on any other occasions, if so how long for?
When Esther went out on the 22nd how long was she intending to be out given that we think she was due back at the farmhouse by the 25th?
How far away was the camping car parked? given that she had a lift back to it someone must have been able to park closer, why didn’t she park closer?
On what day and what time did Dan raise the alarm and how?

I’m sure some people know the answers to these questions but I think it would be good if they were official and all in one place.

If anyone has any questions they would like to ask please feel free to add them. I’ll send them the questions in a day or so (to give time for people to object to the questions or add any).

I’d like answers to some of those questions too, however, some have already been answered or answers can be gleaned from SM.

However, LBT Global is not the place to address those questions, it’s not what the organization does.

What LBT does is provide support for the families of the missing, can act as a “buffer”/spokesperson between the family and media, and provides help for families in liaising with overseas law enforcement/authorities.

I think that’s a fairly reasonable list of questions that might - if you can find an amenable & reputable* one - be better addressed to a journalist covering the case.

* Anyone who writes for the Daily Fail is NOT in my personal opinion in that classification. I’d try the Beeb, Guardian, Times, or Spanish & French sources.

JMO.

 

[Grouse]

I know I remember reading that the person who spotted the person in the van said they had brown hair. I am trying to find this report that mentioned the brown hair.

Please do, I'll be interested to read anything you find. I know some have seen commenting on this as being over critical of the police investigation, but I keep coming back to it as it seems one of the oddest things I have read on the case.

The light on the van was on at 7PM. 3 hours later it was still on and there was someone sleeping in there. The police initially fob off the witness, than later confirm when pressed that it was related to their activity.

And 3 plus hours to examine the van?

 

[Grouse]

If you haven't worked in the industry, you might not appreciate how much time goes into fielding media inquiries on a high profile case.

No I haven't worked in it, though I can imagine it takes a lot of time.

And we've all seen cases where family members have decided to front media themselves in the early days and it can be disastrous even when they are innocent!

Well exactly, which is why I was a bit puzzled that you said you couldn't see why an educated person cannot speak for themselves.

Edit: I'm not trying to be confrontational BTW, and I appreciate you have some knowledge of this area.

 

[Huffbuff]

I would like to know where the dogs are incase they need help looking after them.

 

[Grouse]

Where are the dogs? a number of people think they are with Dan, I think they are in the UK and have been for some time.
If the dogs are in the UK how long have they been there and why?

I read in a comment on Facebook that they were in the UK, and it was a comment by the person who was looking after them. I was wondering why and if it had a bearing on their plans to remain abroad after Brexit.

Dan and Esther visited the UK in the summer so I'm guessing they left them then.

Given Esther mentioned the lift on the 19th Nov why did she not mention the lift on the 21st Nov? I realise that they may not be able to answer this.

She actually walked with the one on the 19th so it impacted on her day and the decisions she made about going back, whereas the 21st it was just a lift?

 

[Huffbuff]

I’ve got a bit out of sync I think but I’d like to make a couple of points. Dan went on National TV the other morning. He was clearly in deep shock and didn’t do himself any favours and instantly trial by media ensued in the comments section.

According to their spokesperson he is releasing a statement next week.