Possible Victim: Valerie Mack, 24, Manorville Jane Doe #6, missing 2000, found Nov 2000 & Gilgo Beach Apr 2011

[coldcaser]

I wonder if she had a driver? or maybe took public trans to get to the meeting place? So do you think "he" was dismembering, like JT and VM, then changed to the "neater" method of strangulation?
I just cant get Bittrolf out of my mind when thinking about VM and JT. They were possibly killed only 7-8 years after his first murders, so its not out of the realm of possibilities. He could have evolved into dismembering vics and gotten careless in regard to the location they were dumped- which was essentially his own backyard, imo.

As for how she got to LI, I can't say whether a driver or public transit was used. A third option is she was picked up by the killer himself. Valerie worked the streets, I think it's safe to say at this point. I don't doubt she had a pimp and I hope they've identified and spoken that person if they do exist.

I go back and forth between the two and one killer theories. Let's say there is one killer. First we have two cases in which we (the public) don't know how they were actually killed, only that they were dismembered post-mortem. For all we know, they could have been strangled. If that's the case, it's the disposal method that has changed. He would be switching from dismembering victims and scattering their remains to creating a personal a personal graveyard of intact victims. Still, there has been talk of I believe Melissa potentially being dismembered (if I remember correctly it was her arm). So my theory for one killer is just that he evolved. I think if we had more detail regarding how exactly VM and JT died and whether or not any of the GB4 were dismembered, it would be easier to sort out the one vs two killer theories.

Let's say there's two killers. This is a bit more simple. We have one killer who dismembers, a level of violence and hatred on par with Bittrolff, and one killer who is more of a collector. Collectors are very hyper-focused on controlling their victims, even after death. He's created his own personal cemetery he can drive by whenever he wants to reminisce. He got off on the idea that only he knew where they were at all times. I think he regarded that cemetery as his greatest achievement in life. He was proud of the fact they were right there, with hundreds of people driving by every day, completely clueless as to what lay in the thick brush.

Personally I do believe Bittrolff is responsible for the Manorville murders. There are too many coincidences there for me to ignore, chiefly the fact both happened in his own backyard as you said. Bittrolff bought land in Manorville in either 1999 or 2000 (I have to check my files). He's a hunter and would have been intimately known those pine barrens. Furthermore he was a carpenter with multiple workshop/shed-type structures on his sprawling property, where I presume he would store all sorts of cutting instruments associated with carpentry. Cutting instruments that could be used on a body.

 

[coldcaser]

I wonder if she had a driver? or maybe took public trans to get to the meeting place? So do you think "he" was dismembering, like JT and VM, then changed to the "neater" method of strangulation?
I just cant get Bittrolf out of my mind when thinking about VM and JT. They were possibly killed only 7-8 years after his first murders, so its not out of the realm of possibilities. He could have evolved into dismembering vics and gotten careless in regard to the location they were dumped- which was essentially his own backyard, imo.

Mods please delete this double post. My mistake.

 

[Curious2017]

As for how she got to LI, I can't say whether a driver or public transit was used. A third option is she was picked up by the killer himself. Valerie worked the streets, I think it's safe to say at this point. I don't doubt she had a pimp and I hope they've identified and spoken that person if they do exist.

I go back and forth between the two and one killer theories. Let's say there is one killer. First we have two cases in which we (the public) don't know how they were actually killed, only that they were dismembered post-mortem. For all we know, they could have been strangled. If that's the case, it's the disposal method that has changed. He would be switching from dismembering victims and scattering their remains to creating a personal a personal graveyard of intact victims. Still, there has been talk of I believe Melissa potentially being dismembered (if I remember correctly it was her arm). So my theory for one killer is just that he evolved. I think if we had more detail regarding how exactly VM and JT died and whether or not any of the GB4 were dismembered, it would be easier to sort out the one vs two killer theories.

Let's say there's two killers. This is a bit more simple. We have one killer who dismembers, a level of violence and hatred on par with Bittrolff, and one killer who is more of a collector. Collectors are very hyper-focused on controlling their victims, even after death. He's created his own personal cemetery he can drive by whenever he wants to reminisce. He got off on the idea that only he knew where they were at all times. I think he regarded that cemetery as his greatest achievement in life. He was proud of the fact they were right there, with hundreds of people driving by every day, completely clueless as to what lay in the thick brush.

Personally I do believe Bittrolff is responsible for the Manorville murders. There are too many coincidences there for me to ignore, chiefly the fact both happened in his own backyard as you said. Bittrolff bought land in Manorville in either 1999 or 2000 (I have to check my files). He's a hunter and would have been intimately known those pine barrens. Furthermore he was a carpenter with multiple workshop/shed-type structures on his sprawling property, where I presume he would store all sorts of cutting instruments associated with carpentry. Cutting instruments that could be used on a body.

I had not read that any of the GB4 (namely Melissa) were potentially dismembered. That is very interesting, and gets my wheels spinning for sure, but I still think LISK and B are two different killers mainly bc of the method of which they were disposed, and collection behavior like you had mentioned. But then you throw in all the manorville body parts found on gilgo and i second guess everything all over again.

Yes very true, the manorville vics couldve been strangled as well. That was another trademark of Bitrolff with his first 2- found nude, strangled with severe head trauma. But i believe B has more victims out there, and i agree that the Manorville bodies are just too big of a coincidence for him not to be linked (although LE has stated that JT and VM are NOT connected).

But then i consider the fact that VM was from Philly, last seen in NJ and was coming to LI for one specific visit. Is there an important link to Philly like Hart lead on? Bitrolff is obviously from LI, but could he be linked to either NJ or Philly? what could his whereabouts have been at that time? Anything is possible as far as them coming in contact with one another, but what a messed up puzzle this is to try and solve!!!

 

[coldcaser]

I had not read that any of the GB4 (namely Melissa) were potentially dismembered. That is very interesting, and gets my wheels spinning for sure, but I still think LISK and B are two different killers mainly bc of the method of which they were disposed, and collection behavior like you had mentioned. But then you throw in all the manorville body parts found on gilgo and i second guess everything all over again.

Yes very true, the manorville vics couldve been strangled as well. That was another trademark of Bitrolff with his first 2- found nude, strangled with severe head trauma. But i believe B has more victims out there, and i agree that the Manorville bodies are just too big of a coincidence for him not to be linked (although LE has stated that JT and VM are NOT connected).

But then i consider the fact that VM was from Philly, last seen in NJ and was coming to LI for one specific visit. Is there an important link to Philly like Hart lead on? Bitrolff is obviously from LI, but could he be linked to either NJ or Philly? what could his whereabouts have been at that time? Anything is possible as far as them coming in contact with one another, but what a messed up puzzle this is to try and solve!!!

I wouldn't let the fact that the Manorville victims' body parts and the GB4 were both found on Jones Beach Island deter you from the two killer theory. That stretch of highway is the best area on the island to dump a body. The unforgiving landscape and the fact there's a long road along the entire way makes it both accessible yet also inaccessible, unlike wooded areas in which a body can only be dragged so deep in, and then you run the risk of someone stumbling upon them. This speaks to the killer's, or killers', intimate knowledge of the area.

LE has said a lot of things. The fact is, both girls' remains were found in Manorville and Jones Beach Island. I think they know they're related. They just won't come out and say it, and they might have a valid reason for that we aren't aware of. I always try to take into consideration that this is an active investigation and it would hinder the investigation if certain information was revealed to the public.

VM was last SEEN in Port Republic, which is where the Macks live and she grew up, so I wouldn't take that as meaning she necessarily disappeared from Port Republic. So little is known about Bittrolff. What I can say for sure though is before the recession hit in 2008, it was very popular for Long Islanders to go to Atlantic City to gamble and indulge in whatever else they wanted to. I know a lot of people who would go down there even a few times a month.

 

[Nitroracer1]

My guess is that the killer will strike again in May/June 2012 now that duck hunting season is over in NYS. He's had time between when the first body was found in late 2010 till now to recalibrate his M.O. He's comfortable he's not being watched. He'll choose a new dump site and pickup methodology.

Snow geese ran through April 15th. 2020-21 Waterfowl & Migratory Game Bird Seasons - NYS Dept. of Environmental Conservation

Now starts "*advertiser censored*" season for this looney.

This waterfowl association needs to be torn apart. They're the only ones with:
1) a direct, ongoing connection to both of the two dump sites in Manorville and Cedar Beach (50 miles apart!!!)
2) a direct connection to burlap (duck hunting camouflage)
3) major childhood/youth trauma in their leadership ranks (violent physical abuse/family history of sexual abuse)


Am I the only one who sees this?

What ever became of this theory? I like it but did le pursure or ignore it, we know they havent solved it,, was your poi wh?

 

[Sallyla]

Very interesting pose ColdCaser.

Melissa wasn’t dismembered. Her mother said that at her funeral the police came and gave her a plastic bag with arm bones in it. That wasn’t because she’d been dismembered, it was because the police screwed up examining the scene of her remains/keeping the remains together properly.

 

[Mountain_Kat]

NONE of the GB4 were dismembered. All were found intact.

Experts say remains found on Long Island beach likely the work of one killer, not two

I list only one source to backup my statement, because it's a well known fact that shouldn't need source backup at this stage of the game. It has been documented hundreds of times in these threads already.

 

[coldcaser]

NONE of the GB4 were dismembered. All were found intact.

Experts say remains found on Long Island beach likely the work of one killer, not two

I list only one source to backup my statement, because it's a well known fact that shouldn't need source backup at this stage of the game. It has been documented hundreds of times in these threads already.

I personally believe they were found intact. Still, some people have their doubts. Has LE ever directly commented on this? I’m just curious if they have or if it’s only been news sources. We all know they’re tight lipped at best though. Megan Waterman’s aunt described her as being “gutted and dismembered”. I recall reading something about Maureen possibly being dismembered too. Megan’s aunt could have been hyperbolizing or been wrong but it’s a pretty specific choice of words. Of course these are just rumors, and while I don’t think they were dismembered, I don’t think we can be 100% certain.

 

[Mountain_Kat]

I personally believe they were found intact. Still, some people have their doubts. Has LE ever directly commented on this? I’m just curious if they have or if it’s only been news sources. We all know they’re tight lipped at best though. Megan Waterman’s aunt described her as being “gutted and dismembered”. I recall reading something about Maureen possibly being dismembered too. Megan’s aunt could have been hyperbolizing or been wrong but it’s a pretty specific choice of words. Of course these are just rumors, and while I don’t think they were dismembered, I don’t think we can be 100% certain.

Megan's remains were skeletal. How on earth can anyone know she was gutted ? I'm telling you, all four of our GB4 girls were found intact. That is an established fact.

 

[coldcaser]

Megan's remains were skeletal. How on earth can anyone know she was gutted ? I'm telling you, all four of our GB4 girls were found intact. That is an established fact.

As I’ve already stated twice I don’t think they were dismembered. I’m others’ theories they might have been dismembered which likely comes from what Megan’s aunt said and the confusion regarding Melissa’s arm. As for why she said Megan was dismembered and gutted, you’ll have to ask her that because I don’t know.

 

[pocket_of_posies]

I'm still reading up on this case so please forgive me if I'm missing anything. The reason for the claims of dismembering could be because the skeletal remains could have been scattered due to the environment and wildlife. Might have looked like dismembering to the untrained eye.

 

[coldcaser]

I'm still reading up on this case so please forgive me if I'm missing anything. The reason for the claims of dismembering could be because the skeletal remains could have been scattered due to the environment and wildlife. Might have looked like dismembering to the untrained eye.

I think that’s what happened with Melissa’s arm.

 

[Michael Sampson]

Kinda weird idk this is the coroner van or just abandoned van up in the woods, when I first seen this picture I thought they found her inside the van which is confusing for me but they actually found her in the black bag in the wooded area, it be crazy if the lisk own that van and put it there on purpose smh

 

[Lanesmommy]

I'm still reading up on this case so please forgive me if I'm missing anything. The reason for the claims of dismembering could be because the skeletal remains could have been scattered due to the environment and wildlife. Might have looked like dismembering to the untrained eye.

Which victims are you referring to? Manorville or Gilgo 4?

Edit: Sorry I didn’t read the few posts above stating that you’re referring to the GB4.. I agree that they were likely not dismembered but a few may have been scatter due to predation.

 

[Puggle]

Conn. Judge Says Exotic Dancers Must Arbitrate Wage Claims

Get some of these girls to overcome their fears and fess up to their life on the streets in new york and maybe some answers will come.

Its been too long for them to remain silent about who recruited them, who controlled them.

 

[Wheel Of fortune]

I’m others’ theories they might have been dismembered which likely comes from what Megan’s aunt said and the confusion regarding Melissa’s arm. As for why she said Megan was dismembered and gutted, you’ll have to ask her that because I don’t know.

Megan’s aunt is Liz. She said in an interview (w I think Jeannine Pirro)that
Megan was gutted. Here is the interview

 

[Lex141]

Long time member/lurker feeling bold to participate today I apologize if this isn’t correct forum or if this has been discussed previously, but would anyone know why VM age estimation prior to ID was so much older? If I’m not mistaken she was listed as a 35-45 Jane Doe.

 

[LR1]

Long time member/lurker feeling bold to participate today I apologize if this isn’t correct forum or if this has been discussed previously, but would anyone know why VM age estimation prior to ID was so much older? If I’m not mistaken she was listed as a 35-45 Jane Doe.

This post with accompanying video by @GeneaoLisa gives some insight as to why it can be difficult determining age in some cases.

Q & A on Forensic Identification of Skeletal Remains

 

[Lex141]

Thank

This post with accompanying video by @GeneaoLisa gives some insight as to why it can be difficult determining age in some cases.

Q & A on Forensic Identification of Skeletal Remains

thanks for the intel

 

[Blueeyedbrowngirl]

Today marks one year since we first learned Valerie’s name and saw her face. Rest in peace, Valerie, you will have justice.