Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #128

[minazoe]

dropping in late..

all child victims of serial killers have been murdered with sexual motive. we are taking about serial killers and not rage killers , revenge killers or female serial killers who will often murder husbands and family members for financial gain. we are talking about serial killers of young girls and women being 100 percent sexually motivated, even if its not immediately evident.

mOO

 

[StarryStarryNight]

Do you recall the distance between the CPS office and the trailhead? I want to say it was quite a distance — 5+ miles — if I had to guess. It’s worth noting the trailhead has parking upfront, so there was definitely something interesting regarding this vehicle. Couple the time (12-5) LE was looking for public help regarding this vehicle + the girls likely time of death cushioned in that span, and we’re likely left wondering if “BG” was in the area for roughly a hour or so (assuming a possibility the CPS vehicle could have been linked to BG, of course).

The site of the old CPS building is very close to the beginning of the trails at Freedom Bridge. A couple hundred yards maybe. The trailhead where the girls were dropped off is just a couple hundred yards farther down the road

CPS building(now gone)—-red circle
Freedom Bridge—-green circle
Trailhead where girls were dropped off—-close down the road in direction of pink arrow

 

[BNA]

Possible explanation of why this case was referred to GBI......

Tara Grinstead murder: Did authorities miss leads that could have potentially solved the case over a decade ago? - CBS News

 

[Cyprusg]

I hope Libby and Abby get justice in 2021...wether it's sketch number one or sketch number two..it would be great to have a brilliant detective come and work on this case..someone with unflinching attention to detail like Mark F. you know it really takes a kind of religious devotion to track down some of these murderers. When you cant even tie the suspect to a vehicle or a specific area. You have to follow the clues and this case needs a fresh start.

I think this crime really starts earlier in the day as the killer was preparing his clothing and kill kit and arranging to be at the park.

so the planning happens first and then there is the actual execution of the plan . the biggest question is did he have specific victims in mind as he did this...and how did he come to come to be there at that specific moment in time.

I think the girls got catfished. I think there was another phone and that was the one the killer was concerned with taking...having no idea about the other phone.

this is my opinion only and there is no evidence of another phone. there is no evidence they got catfished. there is no evidence they were waiting to meet someone as that can easily be explained away as they may have been waiting for BG to come across...so I can be wrong wrong wrong..

but it's still my theory and Im sticking to it

mOO

What makes this case the most frustrating case I've ever followed is that we know almost nothing yet it seems like the police are completely dependent on a tip coming forward. But how are tips going to come forward when all they've offered up to the public is an inaccurate sketch for two years and a short audio recording? Seems like they're waiting on a miracle. Hope I'm wrong obviously.

I think like most crimes involving strangers it was a crime of opportunity. Guy saw two teenagers walking alone. He passed them, maybe even had a brief conversation with them, walked passed them to see if anyone else was coming, then doubled back, the girls knew something was up, they took his picture and started recording. The presence of a "kill kit" would be an indication of whether this was planned or not but I bet he carries a utility knife/hunting knife with him at all times.

My first inclination is that the murderer works some manual labor job, probably a contractor of some sort. Not just because of what he's wearing but because he's going for a walk on a Monday afternoon in February. February is one of the least popular months for employees to take vacation time. So it's likely that he just doesn't work a job that has a set schedule or just has Mondays off usually because he has to work Saturdays. Trivial information I know considering the amount of people that work manual labor and have Mondays off. If we knew what the murder weapon was we could make a better educated guess of what he does for a living.

But the most important part of his appearance is absolutely that flat cap. IF it's accurate that he was wearing a flat cap and IF he had red hair he's probably rocking the flat cap because he wants people to know of his irish heritage. I wouldn't be surprised if he participated in something Irish related, even if it's just some small social thing, or maybe he has some role in the Catholic church. Unfortunately too much time has passed. No way this guy is wearing a flat cap anymore.

 

[news buff]

What makes this case the most frustrating case I've ever followed is that we know almost nothing yet it seems like the police are completely dependent on a tip coming forward. But how are tips going to come forward when all they've offered up to the public is an inaccurate sketch for two years and a short audio recording? Seems like they're waiting on a miracle. Hope I'm wrong obviously.

I think like most crimes involving strangers it was a crime of opportunity. Guy saw two teenagers walking alone. He passed them, maybe even had a brief conversation with them, walked passed them to see if anyone else was coming, then doubled back, the girls knew something was up, they took his picture and started recording. The presence of a "kill kit" would be an indication of whether this was planned or not but I bet he carries a utility knife/hunting knife with him at all times.

My first inclination is that the murderer works some manual labor job, probably a contractor of some sort. Not just because of what he's wearing but because he's going for a walk on a Monday afternoon in February. February is one of the least popular months for employees to take vacation time. So it's likely that he just doesn't work a job that has a set schedule or just has Mondays off usually because he has to work Saturdays. Trivial information I know considering the amount of people that work manual labor and have Mondays off. If we knew what the murder weapon was we could make a better educated guess of what he does for a living.

But the most important part of his appearance is absolutely that flat cap. IF it's accurate that he was wearing a flat cap and IF he had red hair he's probably rocking the flat cap because he wants people to know of his irish heritage. I wouldn't be surprised if he participated in something Irish related, even if it's just some small social thing, or maybe he has some role in the Catholic church. Unfortunately too much time has passed. No way this guy is wearing a flat cap anymore.

Can think you two that somewhat fit your description. But I'm sure you have many.

 

[Skully]

Well the thing that stood out to me was the "fanny pack". Years ago, it was something you saw a lot, but not on men. Women liked them because it freed them up from carrying a purse. So in 2017 I don't see a lot of them, especially someone out in the woods. I might expect a backpack, but not a fanny pack. But of course, I don't live in IN and hike, so maybe they all have fanny packs on the trails, IDK, but to me, it was just not a common sight.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

Possible explanation of why this case was referred to GBI......

Tara Grinstead murder: Did authorities miss leads that could have potentially solved the case over a decade ago? - CBS News

I would say this would have been more a reason not to let GBI look at the Delphi case.
I seem to recall the stated reason was that GBI had a group that specialized in looking over cold cases or something like that. I live close enough to Georgia to know GBI doesn’t have the best reputation so I was shocked this was who Indiana LE was asking to look things over.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

What makes this case the most frustrating case I've ever followed is that we know almost nothing yet it seems like the police are completely dependent on a tip coming forward. But how are tips going to come forward when all they've offered up to the public is an inaccurate sketch for two years and a short audio recording? Seems like they're waiting on a miracle. Hope I'm wrong obviously.

I think like most crimes involving strangers it was a crime of opportunity. Guy saw two teenagers walking alone. He passed them, maybe even had a brief conversation with them, walked passed them to see if anyone else was coming, then doubled back, the girls knew something was up, they took his picture and started recording. The presence of a "kill kit" would be an indication of whether this was planned or not but I bet he carries a utility knife/hunting knife with him at all times.

My first inclination is that the murderer works some manual labor job, probably a contractor of some sort. Not just because of what he's wearing but because he's going for a walk on a Monday afternoon in February. February is one of the least popular months for employees to take vacation time. So it's likely that he just doesn't work a job that has a set schedule or just has Mondays off usually because he has to work Saturdays. Trivial information I know considering the amount of people that work manual labor and have Mondays off. If we knew what the murder weapon was we could make a better educated guess of what he does for a living.

But the most important part of his appearance is absolutely that flat cap. IF it's accurate that he was wearing a flat cap and IF he had red hair he's probably rocking the flat cap because he wants people to know of his irish heritage. I wouldn't be surprised if he participated in something Irish related, even if it's just some small social thing, or maybe he has some role in the Catholic church. Unfortunately too much time has passed. No way this guy is wearing a flat cap anymore.

I really like this post.
I might argue that red hair is not the same as reddish-blonde hair so not so sure about the Irish connection but the rest I pretty much agree with.

 

[FrostedGlass]

Not definitive, as “likely” was used in context. Strange, my initial source was from a WS post (I want to say in thread 124) which had the YT video — which seems to now have been deleted. I’ll have to do some digging as my only note for this has the original presser being “2/22/17.”

MM 24:49

 

[Skully]

Okay thank you for the video, that answers my question about which came first. People saw the BG and then called in to say they saw someone and they did the drawings. So IMO, the OBG sketch may have been influenced by that picture. And the YBG sketch was replaced as there was more to back up that they were on the wrong track with that first released sketch. I just needed to confirm that in my own mind.

 

[minazoe]

I think we talked a lot about the fanny pack and someone did a pretty good job of matching it up to a Small leather belt case that deer hunters wear to keep small tools...I don't know how this guy was such a genius of non-description
he defies description even with a photograph , 2 sketches and a recording. we can't even decide if he has a hat on.

mOO

 

[thx4_medic_Babby]

Okay thank you for the video, that answers my question about which came first. People saw the BG and then called in to say they saw someone and they did the drawings. So IMO, the OBG sketch may have been influenced by that picture. And the YBG sketch was replaced as there was more to back up that they were on the wrong track with that first released sketch. I just needed to confirm that in my own mind.

Although convoluted, my guess has always been both sketches are of “the same person” — as in, merely one killer (“BG”). It was just (at least) two different witnesses giving physical descriptions of who they saw, creating both sketches.

This is the only scenario I can fathom taking into account where Carter notes “BG” could be a combination of the two sketches.

After the revealed “new sketch”, Carter said to disregard the “old sketch” (but to think of them both as some sort of combination, creating one image). I believe the “new sketch” was actually done within the same week of the murders, however.
—
Not to do with sketches, but I also just noticed Indiana is not one of the few states which allow familial DNA testing (for some reason, I thought differently).

 

[Skully]

I think we talked a lot about the fanny pack and someone did a pretty good job of matching it up to a Small leather belt case that deer hunters wear to keep small tools...I don't know how this guy was such a genius of non-description
he defies description even with a photograph , 2 sketches and a recording. we can't even decide if he has a hat on.

mOO

Well said!

 

[thx4_medic_Babby]

Multiple (cell phone) pings of the deceased around town — according to a family member; (possible abandoned) duffle and/or backpack; abandoned CPS vehicle; hitchhiker along interstate; DHS early involvement; multiple search warrants (Delphi and nearby), etc.

Anyone remember other police inquiries and/or family statements from earlier on in the investigation?

 

[Cyprusg]

I think we talked a lot about the fanny pack and someone did a pretty good job of matching it up to a Small leather belt case that deer hunters wear to keep small tools...I don't know how this guy was such a genius of non-description
he defies description even with a photograph , 2 sketches and a recording. we can't even decide if he has a hat on.

mOO

The police have to know and they're just not releasing it. We know the audio came from a video clip. The chance of Liberty having the presence of mind to start recording video but not get more video of the killer, at least to the point where the police could make a better determination of what he was wearing than the public can, is slim. The police have to know at least whether it's a flat cap or a fanny pack. The police even said "additional evidence from the phone had been secured, but that they did not release it so as not to "compromise any future trial". Well... who the heck cares about an imaginary trial? Release everything you got to the public so we can find a child killer that's on the loose.

The thing is 4 years ago if the police had said, looking for a guy with red hair, flat cap, fanny pack, etc.. Those 3 things are fairly rare individually. Put together they're incredibly rare. Instead the police release an inaccurate sketch for 2 years and we're still debating what the guy was wearing. It's ridiculous.

With a case like this, the suspect is not going to just start talking. He's not going to come home and confess to his wife or run his mouth in jail. I can't think of a single child killer case where a breakthrough came from the killer running his mouth to friends/family. Child killing is the most vile thing imaginable, even to most murderers so those that do it usually never speak about it. So what exactly are the police doing right now?

 

[minazoe]

does anyone remember seeing the enhanced photo where it actually looks as though this is not a hat but more a Justin beiber haircut or wig? I apologize in advance if I saw this elsewhere. maybe the source of that wouldn't be allowed..does anyone remember this? mOO

 

[JnRyan]

Possible explanation of why this case was referred to GBI......

Tara Grinstead murder: Did authorities miss leads that could have potentially solved the case over a decade ago? - CBS News

Good article. I followed this case ever since I saw the ID channel's "Disappeared" on her case. This is the first I've heard that tips were called in multiple times. Apparently GBI and local authorities failed to communicate between each other.

One of my thoughts on Abigail's and Liberty's case involves this very scenario. In the beginning there was somewhere between 100 and 200 personnel on the task force with personnel from almost two dozen agencies across the state and the feds investigating the Delphi murders. I don't believe the Tara Grinstead case had anything like that in terms of personnel and certainly not 2-3 years later. I don't believe they had anything like the number of tips in Tara's case that the Delphi case has. In the first 2 weeks of the Delphi murders there were 7800 tips and I believe it was something like 15K-17k in the first two months. What if there was a miscommunication or clerical error in recording a follow-up of a tip? Is it possible LE ALREADY has that ONE tip that could crack the case? I've heard anywhere from 40K to over 50K tips have been received on the Delphi case. Even if we have 40K tips and only 1% to 3% appear credible or substantial enough to follow up extensively that is 400-1200 tips. We have cases on here that don't have that many tips in total over many years.

 

[Falling Down]

The law that governs both cell phone dragnets and geofence data (like this article) is an evolving field. The crime in this article, like the Delphi case, occurred and was investigated in 2017, prior to a landmark ruling in 2018 that limited the scope of data dragnets. If Delphi investigators applied for warrants and gathered data in 2017, there is a chance that information derived from this could be excluded from a future trial based on inadmissability (there are some exceptions that have been made).

One of the things I find most interesting in the article is the fact that the victim in this sexual assault case basically went directly to the police (which is probably the best scenario for getting a usable DNA sample of the perpetrator) and they still only managed to isolate a partial DNA profile for him.

IMO this pertains directly to Delphi as we always hear people implying that some major screwup in evidence collection must account for the fact that we haven't heard much about DNA advancing the Delphi case toward resolution. Even under the "best" conditions, it's never guaranteed that you'll get a perfectly usable DNA sample. Add in an outdoor crime scene and the time until discovery and your odds go down...a lot.

I've wondered since early on how much DNA could have degraded in this case, considering the CS is outdoors, and the ambient temperatures involved.

We're almost 4 years into this case, if LE had usable DNA we would know by now. I just think a lot of folks focus on DNA maybe a little too much in true crime cases, and this is mainly due to what we see and here in the entertainment media and in what passes for news these days. If LE were confident they could find the killer in this case through DNA, the April, 2019, PC would have never happened. Just my opinion of course, but that's where I'm at right now with this case.

LE need the public's help to find this killer, that's what I took away from the April, 2019, PC. I keep my fingers crossed they have enough for a case, I don't have confidence they have enough evidence to figure out who this individual is, on their own.

JMO

 

[Falling Down]

The site of the old CPS building is very close to the beginning of the trails at Freedom Bridge. A couple hundred yards maybe. The trailhead where the girls were dropped off is just a couple hundred yards farther down the road

CPS building(now gone)—-red circle
Freedom Bridge—-green circle
Trailhead where girls were dropped off—-close down the road in direction of pink arrow
View attachment 277922

Thanks for this refresher.

When I was there in October, the leaves were still mostly on the trees. As I crossed FB, I was struck by the fact that where BG most likely parked a vehicle would not have been visible from the FB or either side of it along IN 25, as I've explained in more recent times, I think BG parked by the building for concealment purposes. The vehicle would have been seen by people driving on C.R. 300 or maybe nearby neighbors, there are some properties on the south side of C.R. 300 very close to where the building stood.

JMO

 

[Kimmer]

Well the thing that stood out to me was the "fanny pack". Years ago, it was something you saw a lot, but not on men. Women liked them because it freed them up from carrying a purse. So in 2017 I don't see a lot of them, especially someone out in the woods. I might expect a backpack, but not a fanny pack. But of course, I don't live in IN and hike, so maybe they all have fanny packs on the trails, IDK, but to me, it was just not a common sight.

They are not uncommon in the spring in the woods during mushroom hunting, but that is not done in Feburary.