UK - Healthcare worker arrested on suspicion of murder/attempted murder of a number of babies, 2018

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elliefant said:
I agree @whatawaster , I’ve seen nothing that enables me to form a strong view, or much of a view at all really. We have seen very little of course. Knowing how the children were allegedly killed will be a big piece of the jigsaw for me I think.

However I don’t think the NHS and/or police are deliberately wrecking this nurse’s life as some sort of cover-up, so am not going with the conspiracy angle.

Looking forward to hearing more facts from the authorities on this unusual case.
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I entirely agree. I've never seen any merit in any of the various conspiracy theories whether it be the government hiding UFO's to Oswald being set up to take the fall for JFK's assassination to COVID or AIDS being man made or 5g being intended as a mind control device. They are all complete twaddle. That isn't to say though that people won't turn a blind eye to someone being wrongly accused if it's to their advantage to do so or that investigators might get convinced into a certain course of action which turns out to be completely wrong in hindsight. I agree that if LL is innocent there is no way that she has been intentionally set up with a load of fabricated evidence against her. There have been other notable medically related crimes where it subsequently came out that nothing unlawful even happened. This may well be one of them. We simply don't know yet.
 
I'm so confused about this case, I've read all I can and just reread through this whole thread again and still stumped about all the info, like you Marantz, it just doesn't really seem to make any sense does it?!

I'm still innocent until proven guilty because we have no info at all (and I'd say the same thing for a man), in most cases we know how a person has died so there is at least that but with this case the only thing we know is some babies have died in unexpected circumstances and they have arrested LL 3 times and finally charged her so it's not so much saying "oh she doesn't look the type" it's more well we have nothing to go on except belief in the police and their investigation-and I have no great confidence in the police!

She's been in custody since November right? So if she actually gets found not guilty she will probably have spent the best part of a year locked up anyway by the time the trial is done. That just seems so wrong, I know it's for her own protection-mostly because her name was leaked so I'm thinking it's for fear of vigilante attacks. I'm guessing there would be a monumental bill for the police (taxpayer) if she was able to sue afterwards or do the police just say "we have to be able to investigate, sorry we ruined your life" and that's it dropped? I know that Rebecca Leighton got rather a paltry sum IMO after spending a few weeks in jail and all the stuff the police and media did to her. It's amazing how many people actually think you can just get on with your life afterwards sort of a "oh well they've apologised, it's all been sorted out now no one thinks you're guilty anymore get over it" kind of way! Aside from obviously what the parents of the poor babies are going through, I can't imagine much worse for someone to go through in life than LL IF innocent.

That sort of thing sticks with you just ask Cliff Richard, it doesn't matter if it gets "sorted out" I don't think anything can make up for it. I just really hope the police know what they are doing because the damage to nursing for one thing could be immense-I would imagine it's scared a lot of people in the medical industry "could something like this happen to me?" would it even deter people from going into nursing?
 
Jules2021 said:
I'm so confused about this case, I've read all I can and just reread through this whole thread again and still stumped about all the info, like you Marantz, it just doesn't really seem to make any sense does it?!

I'm still innocent until proven guilty because we have no info at all (and I'd say the same thing for a man), in most cases we know how a person has died so there is at least that but with this case the only thing we know is some babies have died in unexpected circumstances and they have arrested LL 3 times and finally charged her so it's not so much saying "oh she doesn't look the type" it's more well we have nothing to go on except belief in the police and their investigation-and I have no great confidence in the police!

She's been in custody since November right? So if she actually gets found not guilty she will probably have spent the best part of a year locked up anyway by the time the trial is done. That just seems so wrong, I know it's for her own protection-mostly because her name was leaked so I'm thinking it's for fear of vigilante attacks. I'm guessing there would be a monumental bill for the police (taxpayer) if she was able to sue afterwards or do the police just say "we have to be able to investigate, sorry we ruined your life" and that's it dropped? I know that Rebecca Leighton got rather a paltry sum IMO after spending a few weeks in jail and all the stuff the police and media did to her. It's amazing how many people actually think you can just get on with your life afterwards sort of a "oh well they've apologised, it's all been sorted out now no one thinks you're guilty anymore get over it" kind of way! Aside from obviously what the parents of the poor babies are going through, I can't imagine much worse for someone to go through in life than LL IF innocent.

That sort of thing sticks with you just ask Cliff Richard, it doesn't matter if it gets "sorted out" I don't think anything can make up for it. I just really hope the police know what they are doing because the damage to nursing for one thing could be immense-I would imagine it's scared a lot of people in the medical industry "could something like this happen to me?" would it even deter people from going into nursing?
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I don't think that she's been remanded because of any threat of vigilantism, to be honest. She was first arrested in July 2019 and, as far as I'm aware, no one has attempted anything towards her in that time. Vigilante attacks on criminals are extremely rare and almost unheard of against people who haven't even been convicted. I can't think of any, to be honest, apart from one or two against paedophiles, at least some of which were mistaken identity. If she was allowed out on bail then she would be under such intense media and police scrutiny that I doubt that anyone would try anything as they'd very likely be caught.

Her defence QC described her as being extremely anxious about her situation and that she wanted to see a resolution to the situation as soon as possible. Reading between the lines I think she's probably so distressed that there is a significant fear of her harming herself. Whether she's guilty or not, I don't think she's the type of person who would handle this level of stress well - it was also suggested on another board that she had been subjected to bullying so that will be another factor in the mix if it's true. If she's actually innocent of this it must be absolutely horrifying for her. If she's acquitted, and genuinely hasn't done it, I think that she'll be absolutely broken by it.

As we've all said many times though, we just don't know due to the very scant level of information currently available and the fact that there seems to be absolutely no one who knows her who is saying anything other than what an utterly perfect person she is.

Edit: in one sense, I hope she's guilty. At least that way then it's easier to justify her fate - which won't be pleasant. If she's not guilty then I hope that she is acquitted, convincingly so. I truly hope that she isn't going to be convicted if she's actually innocent. I can't imagine anything worse.
 
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Haven't been following this case that closely, but I wonder if it's possible that she deliberately tinkered with life saving equipment.

There was a case in Australia where two babies (same hospital, more than a month apart) were administered laughing gas instead of oxygen after the tanks were 'incorrectly labelled'. One died and the other ended up with brain injuries.

Seems there was problems with resuscitation in both of these cases.


Tragic death of baby in Australian hospital

Two babies were accidentally administered nitrous oxide instead of oxygen during resuscitation at a Bankstown-Lidcombe hospital operating theatre in Sydney’s southwest. The nitrous oxide, also known as “laughing gas,” was incorrectly labelled as oxygen on the theatre’s gas supply wall units.

A Root Cause Analysis (RCA) investigation began on June 23 into problems with the resuscitation of the girl, but it was not until a day after the death of the boy that a hospital paediatrician raised concerns about the gas lines. Eight days later, on July 21, BOC conducted a gas purity check and the theatre was closed.


Nurse charged with murder of eight babies

Medics launched an internal inquiry after finding that the premature babies had collapsed with heart and lung failure but were, unusually, impossible to resuscitate.
 
Grapey: at this stage literally anything is possible as we really don't know anything about what they are alleging was done to these babies. When you have a look at the timescales involved though it's difficult to see what they are suggesting that she did; she seems to have gone from a perfectly law-abiding young nurse to a rampaging killing machine almost overnight. The baby who was mentioned up the thread (I don't want to continually mention names) it would seem, she allegedly attempted to murder probably on her day of birth and then when that failed immediately did something else which ended up being fatal when the baby was at a different location on a different day. I'm not sure that simply tampering with machines would have have accounted for the number of deaths she is accused of, let alone the number of attempts she allegedly made. I am obviously speaking from a position of complete ignorance as to medical matters and the machinery in special care baby units (and the prosecution case at hand) but I find it difficult to believe that such tampering could have gone unnoticed for so long. Lets not forget that none of these deaths and collapses were apparently flagged at the time they happened, it was only after looking at the statistics after the fact that they decided to investigate further. It just seems so unlikely that such things could go unnoticed for so long by so many people.

Edit: what I was going to say but didn't is that the sheer number of alleged murders and attempts at murder in such close temporal proximity against the background of someone so universally well thought of could quite reasonably be indicative of some mechanical, medical, procedural or organisational failure as much as it could to any unlawful behaviour.
 
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Marantz you're right I'm sure vigilante attacks are very rare but there is A LOT of anger towards her-not talking about this site but more social media/youtube where people seem convinced of her guilt like it's a done deal. I don't know whether it's because babies are involved but I think that's what has driven such anger because emotions take over when children or babies are killed understandably. So there are definitely a lot of people out there who want bad things to happen to her-granted I haven't seen any specific threats and even if there were it would be very unusual for them to be carried out. This is an almost unprecedented case though-also remember the murder of James Bulger and the angry mobs throwing things at the prison van. You are right it would be very difficult for anyone to get to her to do anything.

I think maybe she has just been remanded because that's what happens on a murder charge they don't let potential serial killers still walk around it's too serious a charge although obviously not being a nurse now it's not like she could harm any other babies. If it's for her own protection thinking she might harm herself well she's lived with it already for 2 years and surely being kept in custody is only going to worsen her mental state but yes they could prevent her from harming herself should she have planned to. I honestly don't know how I would cope, I think I would want to end it all but I would be so intent on clearing my name but to have all this time to wait for the police to decide whether to charge and then a trial and also thinking well what if I actually get found guilty, it's just unimaginable. I agree it's too awful to think of this all happening to a potentially innocent person.
 
I've certainly seen anger towards her on social media, Twitter, etc but it seems to be just from the usual random, permanently faux-offended types who are all mouth and not much else. To be totally honest, given the potential significance of this case, I'm amazed at how few people have heard of it. I've asked loads of people for opinions on it and the response from most is usually - nope, never heard of that, you got a link to it? I'm further north and the other side of the country so I'm assuming that it's been more noteworthy in the area it took place in. I certainly hadn't heard of it until her arrest and charge in November.

You are right that it's highly unusual for people on a murder charge to be granted bail and, to be honest, I don't think that she would have been regardless of what was said in court about her personal safety. I did at one point think that the comments about wanting a resolution to the matter asap was an indicator that she intended to enter a guilty plea but if that were the case I don't think she would have made a bail application if she'd already resigned herself to life in prison. I certainly don't think that her defence team would have agreed to making such an application if she had indicated that she was going to do that either.
 
Yep right about social media-that's why it's so great to have this place where people can hold rational conversations that don't end up in insults and name calling! It's amazing how they've managed to keep it so under wraps isn't it especially in this day and age. I'm in the east midlands and I think I heard about it when she was first arrested so have been reading about it since (though there hasn't been much to read about). I can't remember how or where I first saw it reported I just know I've been following it for a long time. I'm very interested in true crime as well as mysteries and being only a couple years older than LL herself I suppose I find it even more fascinating because if she is guilty I just can't think of any motive at all-at least not one that I would buy really. Plus this might be the biggest case I've been able to follow in my lifetime.

It was an interesting choice of words used about wanting a resolution-but surely it just means she wants to clear her name, otherwise a resolution in favour of her guilt would mean she'd be going to prison and I can't imagine she's wanting that! I do have a theory that perhaps she wonders herself if she was negligent with one or more of the babies and she doesn't consider herself entirely innocent but knows it wasn't murder. She strikes me as the type to perhaps be a perfectionist and overly sensitive so maybe she blamed herself for one or more of the deaths and later that was mentioned to the police. After all some level of neglect caused these babies deaths unless it was just a very bad run of luck for a couple of years on the unit.
 
Trial of Chester healthcare worker Lucy Letby could be heard in Manchester

Update on today's court proceedings. I have to say that things like;

A hearing was hosted at Chester Crown Court, with the judge, prosecution and defence barristers all appearing via remote link, to discuss trial arrangements should Letby, 30, plead not guilty to the charges she faces.

and

Both prosecution and defence teams agreed, the court heard, that in the event the case proceeded to trial, it should not take place in Chester, due to the high-profile nature of the case.

Give the distinct feeling, at least to me, that a guilty plea may be going to be entered. Maybe I'm reading too much into it though.
 
Bloody hell - Anything could happen by the sound of it. Moving it off circuit to Preston or Manchester from Chester not really going to make a huge amount of difference but justice also needs to be “ seen to be done “ This case beyond strange.
 
Parker Knoll said:
Bloody hell - Anything could happen by the sound of it. Moving it off circuit to Preston or Manchester from Chester not really going to make a huge amount of difference but justice also needs to be “ seen to be done “ This case beyond strange.
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Everything about this case is just too weird for words, to be honest. I don't know whether we'll see some absolutely earth shattering stuff coming up at trial or whether it will just be loads of very circumstantial stuff such as her rotas coinciding with other events. With other significant cases you usually get some sort of feel for how things might go but I just can't read this one.

Who knows, but perhaps the reason for the shift in venue might be that all the reports about people saying that she's the most wonderful nurse to grace the face of planet might make it difficult to find a jury to convict her in Chester, rather than the other way around? Admittedly, that's a bit of a stretch but nothing would surprise me with this one and I really don't see hoards of people vilifying her. There is the odd nutter on Twitter and FB but she's no Peter Sutcliffe as regards haters.
 
Jules2021, I think you made an excellent point with the idea that perhaps LL is such a perfectionist that she thinks she may have been negligent in some way, and thus caused the babies' deaths. She may also not be the most confident of people. This is a theory I can accept.
 
Kemug said:
Jules2021, I think you made an excellent point with the idea that perhaps LL is such a perfectionist that she thinks she may have been negligent in some way, and thus caused the babies' deaths. She may also not be the most confident of people. This is a theory I can accept.
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I can see some merit in this, to be honest. Again, it's just going from her photos and what people who know her have said about her but I can accept that she probably isn't the most confident person in the world and I very much doubt that she's particularly good at asserting herself. I can't imagine that she handles police interviews as a murder suspect too well so I doubt that the time it's taken to charge her is due to her confounding the police with loads of what the Americans term "plausible deniability". She certainly doesn't come across as a confident master criminal in anything I've seen about her.

I'm fascinated by her character. I consider myself to be a fairly good judge of people and I can usually spot people with negative character traits fairly early on but I just don't see her as the nasty, conceited type. In fairness, all I can base this on is her photos and what others have said about her, so I may be completely wrong. I'd love to see some video of her surface.
 
Kemug said:
Jules2021, I think you made an excellent point with the idea that perhaps LL is such a perfectionist that she thinks she may have been negligent in some way, and thus caused the babies' deaths. She may also not be the most confident of people. This is a theory I can accept.
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Thanks it's the only thing I can come up with really! Attention seeker well it's possible but I wouldn't have thought she was-although she was the face of that campaign so maybe she is more of an attention seeker in reality. All I know is you have to be a special type of person to go into that job and it's one I certainly couldn't do as I would be far too oversensitive and affected by any deaths although I suppose it's something you do sadly get "used" to overtime. Of course on that unit there were more deaths than any nurse was supposed to see over a certain time period and I'm sure all the nurses were devastated by each one.

I agree Marantz I have an idea of her character based on her photos and what people who know her have said-like I said in a previous post "girl next door" springs to mind. Honestly the last person on the planet I would think would be guilty of something like this. With solid evidence for her guilt and some kind of motive then I'd begin to believe it after the shock wore off(!) but at this point not knowing what the police have in any way then all I can think of is ways in which she may have got caught up in this but it not be murder. Perhaps I should have more faith in the police though after all they must've been shocked to start investigating her in the first place-I know they go by evidence and not what someone looks like (which is all we have to go on really) but I would think she's the last person they'd expect to be investigating for this too and yet here we are finally on a murder charge.
 
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