GUILTY UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, found deceased, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #25

[Challwood]

Each to their own but I'm personally uneasy with a poll on what the verdict will be. For me I feel it's too similar to a competition and could be seen as disrespectful to Libby and her loved ones. A poll on the separate question of which offences people believe PR has committed would be considerably more palatable.

I don’t believe the poll is on what we feel the verdict will be, but rather what our own opinion on what we feel has been proven. My vote was for what I felt, not what I thought the jury would say.

 

[Steve2021]

I don’t believe the poll is on what we feel the verdict will be, but rather what our own opinion on what we feel has been proven. My vote was for what I felt, not what I thought the jury would say.

I'd rather it was simply do you believe he did it, than either what do you think is proven or what will the jury decide.

 

[Jenesaisquoi]

Yes, my vote was what I believed based on the evidence that we had heard from the trial, being aware that there may be more evidence that we had not seen or heard yet. I reviewed my vote throughout the days. It has been useful to see the voting figures in general on polls because, like a discussion, they make us think about why a viewpoint may be different to our own.

 

[Pinkizzy]

If Libby had been found buried in a shallow grave or concealed somewhere then it would have been slam dunk for murder. The fact she was found in the water let’s the defense throw up the possibility she died accidentally, but PR raping her caused her death whether it was accidental or not because he took her to that area instead of back home where she wanted to go! Testimony proves that Libby didn’t want to go to that park, she wanted to go home. So he kidnapped her, took her to that area and raped her, and she ultimately died as a result of him taking her to that area to attack her, he showed he meant serious harm by raping her so her death was atleast caused by his actions. Whether he meant to kill her or not the intent for serious harm was there.

She didn't stay at home when the taxi driver left her there. She may not have stayed at home if Pawel had left her there.

Do you remember when a witness saw Pawel cleaning the inside of his car after Libby's last sighting? If he was washing mud from inside of his car and the ground was frozen solid, where did the mud come from?

 

[kate2931]

No it can only be 11-1 or 10 -2.
Am not sure how long Judge will wait before asking them if they are able to reach a verdict, but unlikely to let it go beyond tomorrow

what will happen Alyce? If they can’t reach a verdict, is it hung and then a re-trial ?

 

[Mommysleuth11]

So 2 hours since the majority direction and still no verdict. This doesn't feel good, her family must be beside themselves.

My only consoling feeling is that if he is convicted of the rape alone, of which I personally have no doubts on, the Judge will surely throw the book at him (did someone post maximum sentence 19 years to life imprisonment?), due to the aggravating factors and the fact she never returned home through either direct or indirect consequence of his actions.
I don't believe he will be a free man for many many years, if ever but understandably this may not feel like enough for her family. All moo

 

[MsMiniSleuth]

what will happen Alyce? If they can’t reach a verdict, is it hung and then a re-trial ?

Taking the verdict after a majority direction
If a jury returns after receiving a majority direction, the court clerk will ask the foreman if at least 10 of them (or 9 if there are only 10 jurors) have agreed upon their verdict; if the answer is yes, the foreman will be asked for the verdict.

If the verdict is Guilty the foreman will be asked if that is ‘the verdict of you all or by a majority?’ If it is by a majority the next question is how many agreed and how many dissented?

If, on the other hand, the verdict is Not Guilty the court clerk will not ask how many agreed or dissented.

Retrial - What happens after a hung jury is discharged?
When a hung jury has been discharged, the usual practice is for the defendant to be tried again by a different jury.

The prosecution will usually be given 7 days to notify both the court and the defence if they wish to proceed for a second time.

The reasons for being given this time include the opportunity to gain witness availability and consult with witnesses (who would have to give evidence for a second time) and also to consider if there are any fundamental weaknesses in the case that tend against asking for a retrial; for example, sometimes a prosecution witness whose evidence appeared watertight on paper might have been shown to be unreliable during cross-examination by the defence.

If a jury are unable to agree following a second trial, the convention is for the prosecution not to seek a third trial but to offer no evidence (which results in a Not Guilty verdict). It will only be in exceptional cases that a third trial would be sought.

Uncompleted trials
When a problem occurs during a trial and the jury are discharged for reasons other than being unable to reach a verdict, this will not count as a first or second trial (as in a hung jury situation) for the purposes of the prosecution deciding whether or not to seek a retrial.

Examples of situations in which a jury may be discharged (other than when they are unable to agree upon a verdict) are:

• The prosecution or defence have inadvertently introduced evidence which the judge had previously ruled inadmissible and the judge takes the view that a fair trial with that jury is no longer possible;
  
  
• A juror has improperly carried out research on a witness and informed fellow jurors of their discoveries;
  
  
• Too many jurors have become ill during the case, or for other reasons are unable to continue, and there are insufficient jurors left to continue.

 

[JosieJo]

Interesting. For your first point all PRs lies are self serving and to protect himself - they're not random. They literally change to match evidence.

If I thought there was a remote chance of Libby being found I'll tailor my lies to account for the rape early on. I'd calculate at the point of arrest there would be a better than remote chance she'd be found. Unless I knew different. So I'd be introducing the sex defence early on.

I wouldn't return to the scene that night either. Too risky if she's reported it. Even if it was my thing. Plenty of time when the police had departed.

I wouldn't be out where police might be looking either. Girl raped - patrol cars would be out IMO

For your second point Libby was falling over a lot as per witnesses. On pavements. You've started from the point where PRs has taken her so you've made a very reasonable assumption of where misadventure starts.

But like PRs other lies I would have to interpret remaining outside the park as having some purpose to protect him.

Therefore I'd assume he didn't want to admit to being in the park. But the sex story remains the same. So why that lie?

I'd also think I could only interpret misadventure from outside the park because that's all he's given me to work with. I can't give him a benefit of the doubt he hasn't given himself for some reason. I can't place her starting point anywhere in that park without some guidance.

So I think it unlikely based on the experts accounts and the sheer ratio of dry land to river that she could do it. I can't conjure a starting point because PR hasn't. So his lie is suspicious. It's also removed misadventure

The prosecution version gives us the guidance...they have put him at the rear of the park by the witness SA ... its not a case of choosing one sides version...its for the prosecution to prove his guilt. For me they have proven up to the point of rape at the river end of the park ...just because for me they haven't proved beyond that does not mean I have to go back to the starting point of Oak rd

What do you feel the jury are struggling with ? Because obviously they are ..even taking into account the complexity of the case deliberations are very lengthy

For example in April jones case ...4hrs
Joanna Yates ..2 days
Most cases are much quicker ...no way is this just carefully going through info ..they are struggling

 

[Becky53]

I think Sophie got her sums wrong ..... Day Six in my calendar

Is this wrong too seven men and five women? I thought it was the other way around...

The jury were sent out to decide whether Relowicz, 26, is guilty of the rape and murder of University of Hull student Libby Squire on Thursday last week.

Now, after six days of deliberations at Sheffield Crown Court, the jury - made up of seven men and five women - seem no closer to reaching a verdict.

Libby Squire murder trial: Why jury can reach a majority verdict

 

[JosieJo]

If Libby had been found buried in a shallow grave or concealed somewhere then it would have been slam dunk for murder. The fact she was found in the water let’s the defense throw up the possibility she died accidentally, but PR raping her caused her death whether it was accidental or not because he took her to that area instead of back home where she wanted to go! Testimony proves that Libby didn’t want to go to that park, she wanted to go home. So he kidnapped her, took her to that area and raped her, and she ultimately died as a result of him taking her to that area to attack her, he showed he meant serious harm by raping her so her death was atleast caused by his actions. Whether he meant to kill her or not the intent for serious harm was there.

This is so true regards the grave ...agree with all your thoughts on him being responsible

 

[Cherwell]

Do you remember when a witness saw Pawel cleaning the inside of his car after Libby's last sighting? If he was washing mud from inside of his car and the ground was frozen solid, where did the mud come from?

Did the witness mention mud?

 

[Officer Dibble]

Did the witness mention mud?

I was about to ask the same thing.

 

[Newthoughts]

So 2 hours since the majority direction and still no verdict. This doesn't feel good, her family must be beside themselves.

My only consoling feeling is that if he is convicted of the rape alone, of which I personally have no doubts on, the Judge will surely throw the book at him (did someone post maximum sentence 19 years to life imprisonment?), due to the aggravating factors and the fact she never returned home through either direct or indirect consequence of his actions.
I don't believe he will be a free man for many many years, if ever but understandably this may not feel like enough for her family. All moo

I wouldn't find that a comfort if it were me. The man who murdered my child getting away with murder no matter how strict the sentence. IMO.

With good behaviour he'd be out in time to do it again. 17 - 18 years.

I can't honestly see where the doubt is.

 

[JosieJo]

For me I wish there had been one more piece of evidence to close the deal
Just some blood on his clothes ?
Some Internet searches on bodies in rivers?
Previous violence ?
A liking for auto asphyxiation *advertiser censored* ?
The sort of things in other cases that tip the balance

 

[kate2931]

Taking the verdict after a majority direction
If a jury returns after receiving a majority direction, the court clerk will ask the foreman if at least 10 of them (or 9 if there are only 10 jurors) have agreed upon their verdict; if the answer is yes, the foreman will be asked for the verdict.

If the verdict is Guilty the foreman will be asked if that is ‘the verdict of you all or by a majority?’ If it is by a majority the next question is how many agreed and how many dissented?

If, on the other hand, the verdict is Not Guilty the court clerk will not ask how many agreed or dissented.

Retrial - What happens after a hung jury is discharged?
When a hung jury has been discharged, the usual practice is for the defendant to be tried again by a different jury.

The prosecution will usually be given 7 days to notify both the court and the defence if they wish to proceed for a second time.

The reasons for being given this time include the opportunity to gain witness availability and consult with witnesses (who would have to give evidence for a second time) and also to consider if there are any fundamental weaknesses in the case that tend against asking for a retrial; for example, sometimes a prosecution witness whose evidence appeared watertight on paper might have been shown to be unreliable during cross-examination by the defence.

If a jury are unable to agree following a second trial, the convention is for the prosecution not to seek a third trial but to offer no evidence (which results in a Not Guilty verdict). It will only be in exceptional cases that a third trial would be sought.

Uncompleted trials
When a problem occurs during a trial and the jury are discharged for reasons other than being unable to reach a verdict, this will not count as a first or second trial (as in a hung jury situation) for the purposes of the prosecution deciding whether or not to seek a retrial.

Examples of situations in which a jury may be discharged (other than when they are unable to agree upon a verdict) are:

• The prosecution or defence have inadvertently introduced evidence which the judge had previously ruled inadmissible and the judge takes the view that a fair trial with that jury is no longer possible;
  
  
• A juror has improperly carried out research on a witness and informed fellow jurors of their discoveries;
  
  
• Too many jurors have become ill during the case, or for other reasons are unable to continue, and there are insufficient jurors left to continue.

thank you

 

[Tortoise]

Is this wrong too seven men and five women? I thought it was the other way around...

The jury were sent out to decide whether Relowicz, 26, is guilty of the rape and murder of University of Hull student Libby Squire on Thursday last week.

Now, after six days of deliberations at Sheffield Crown Court, the jury - made up of seven men and five women - seem no closer to reaching a verdict.

Libby Squire murder trial: Why jury can reach a majority verdict

Yes, you're right

"the jury of seven women and five men"

Libby Squire murder trial: Pawel Relowicz 'refused woman's advances'

 

[Alyce]

what will happen Alyce? If they can’t reach a verdict, is it hung and then a re-trial ?

Yes, sadly there is no other choice - it will be a hung jury and - if CPS decide to - they will have another trial.

 

[Mommysleuth11]

The prosecution version gives us the guidance...they have put him at the rear of the park by the witness SA ... its not a case of choosing one sides version...its for the prosecution to prove his guilt. For me they have proven up to the point of rape at the river end of the park ...just because for me they haven't proved beyond that does not mean I have to go back to the starting point of Oak rd

What do you feel the jury are struggling with ? Because obviously they are ..even taking into account the complexity of the case deliberations are very lengthy

For example in April jones case ...4hrs
Joanna Yates ..2 days
Most cases are much quicker ...no way is this just carefully going through info ..they are struggling

Just to add to this, a couple of cases I have followed on here recently Lyndsey Birbeck was within a couple of hours,
Sarah Wellgreen around 3 days. Both seemed pretty complex cases with lots of evidence to consider, this does feel like a really awfully long time.

 

[Cherwell]

I wouldn't find that a comfort if it were me. The man who murdered my child getting away with murder no matter how strict the sentence. IMO.
With good behaviour he'd be out in time to do it again. 17 - 18 years.
I can't honestly see where the doubt is.

That's the outcome for many who are convicted of murder.

 

[Lyall0814]

The prosecution version gives us the guidance...they have put him at the rear of the park by the witness SA ... its not a case of choosing one sides version...its for the prosecution to prove his guilt. For me they have proven up to the point of rape at the river end of the park ...just because for me they haven't proved beyond that does not mean I have to go back to the starting point of Oak rd

What do you feel the jury are struggling with ? Because obviously they are ..even taking into account the complexity of the case deliberations are very lengthy

For example in April jones case ...4hrs
Joanna Yates ..2 days
Most cases are much quicker ...no way is this just carefully going through info ..they are struggling

It might have been just one juror all along, we'll see. I think we'll know by 4 or thereabouts.