The December 23 party

[Rain on my Parade]

No, I'm in the JDI and PDI camp.

icedtea4me,
Thanks for the clarification. I was just wondering who did what? PR lost it over bed wetting. JR was the abuser of JB and perhaps BR? So, they decided to play ball together?

 

[UKGuy]

UKGuy,
I know all to well about sharing drinks and the difference in drinking from a straw per say as drinking from a glass. Slobber is much more likely to occur via a straw then a glass. Yet ... it can still be there.

Somebody sticking their fingers in milk and cream.
I don’t think it far fetched for a person with scatolia issues to have a problem with that.
Some causes of smearing may include:

• Medical issues (constipation, GI issues)
• Psychiatric issues (OCD, exposure anxiety, mental health issues)
• Sensory factors (interoception problems – not knowing you have to go, enjoyment of smell and texture)
• Difficulties around teaching toilet training skills
• Dietary factors (limited diet may lead to constipation)
• Emotional factors (response to anxiety, the reward of a hot bath, sense of autonomy, understimulation/boredom, an expression of anger)
• Sexual factors (gratification, a sign of abuse)

IMO, JB was chocked manually, then whacked on the head, then strangled with the ligature. I understand the blood pooling under the skin (as seen on left hand side below JB) neck can be a Vagus nerve reaction but I have always seen it as somebody grabbing JB by the shirt collar and twisting it; thereby leaving the knuckle imprint.

The Disney reference I guess we will also use in the instance where BR is telling Dr. Bernhardt what happened to JB less then 2 weeks from her death. He states he was just guessing about this on Dr. Phil. Less then two weeks later and he knows what happened. He also knows enough to discuss w/DS the ligature 2 days after the murder. Doesn’t sound to much like Disney to me.

I suppose you could be on the fence about why the crime was handled like it was. Perhaps they parents decided to lose one child instead of two.

"Rain on my Parade,
Some common sense is required wrt the kitchen as a crime-scene. If it played a role in JonBenet's death then neither John or Patsy were concerned as they forgot all about the kitchen and breakfast-bar leaving the pineapple snack leftovers to remain as in your face evidence that JonBenet snacked pineapple before retiring to her bedroom.

All of which blew their version of events regarding JonBenet out of the water, so really for the residents the pineapple snack was just another domestic event.

Manually choked is sufficient, aided by a shirt collar or not, still leads to JonBenet's death.

We agree on the critical points and main sequencing, any deviation appears theoretical which can assist in fostering debate.


BR's Dr. Bernhardt interview is different from visualizing her head injury as a response to snatching BR's food.

This is because BR's enacts the blows for you, in this instance Disney is not required.

I agree BR seems to know far too much, especially when his parents went to such lengths to state that they shielded him and told him no details surrounding JonBenet's death, as well as moving him out of the house, i.e. Fleet White, at al.

IMO contrary to recieved opinion a case can be made for BDI but not the theory beloved of the media.

It could be everyone involved was influenced by the Colorado Child Statutes to play ball with the Ramsey's and lets say, not investigate matters fully neglecting some due process here and there?

Outcome: Only one child lost.

.

 

[UKGuy]

Duplicate

 

[UKGuy]

UKGuy,
Agreed.



Agreed.




I would completely agree with this, yet ... why mention MR and PR hand print found on the wine cellar door? Why not JR hand print or FW?



They say they match but like I said what about the scarf on the wet bar? I have not seen this item on the list of evidence but I am sure there are many things we don’t see that were taken from the crime scene that are not listed.
JR departing gift to JB was a scarf? Besides it’s presence may explain PR reaction to seeing the last photo taken of JB. She could have thought oh no!



Exactly.

Rain on my Parade,

They say they match but like I said what about the scarf on the wet bar? I have not seen this item on the list of evidence but I am sure there are many things we don’t see that were taken from the crime scene that are not listed.
JR departing gift to JB was a scarf? Besides it’s presence may explain PR reaction to seeing the last photo taken of JB. She could have thought oh no!

JR's fibers matching, if correct as alleged, definitely place JR at the crime scene.

PR's fiber match is less definitive as we are likely talking US manufactured fibers, needs verified, but being so extensive at the crime-scene and in a remote location makes third party transfer very unlikely.

So where are Burke Ramsey's blue pajama bottoms, JonBenet's size-6 underwear, where did they all go?

.

 

[Rain on my Parade]

So where are Burke Ramsey's blue pajama bottoms, JonBenet's size-6 underwear, where did they all go?

UKGuy,
Apparently the BPD did not log those pajama pants into evidence. There has to be a reason for this, since Kolar’s states their presence.
JB could have been wearing any pair of size 6 underwear. If they didn’t have a dirty cloths hamper, I am sure the floor would suffice in that house.

 

[Rain on my Parade]

Some common sense is required wrt the kitchen as a crime-scene. If it played a role in JonBenet's death then neither John or Patsy were concerned as they forgot all about the kitchen and breakfast-bar leaving the pineapple snack leftovers to remain as in your face evidence that JonBenet snacked pineapple before retiring to her bedroom.

UKGuy,
No, yet we will wipe the mag lite batteries of finger prints and leave it on the kitchen counter instead of putting back in the drawer of the wet bar. We will also write the RN, then put the paper tablet back in its correct location and the sharpie in its cup. Why was the sunroom light off? Plus, BR in his own words snuck downstairs putting together a toy after mom and dad went to bed. Again, perhaps he walked in on the crime taking place.

All of which blew their version of events regarding JonBenet out of the water, so really for the residents the pineapple snack was just another domestic event.

It was a telling even as you stated. JB was not zonked out when she arrived home just as BR stated.

IMO contrary to recieved opinion a case can be made for BDI but not the theory beloved of the media.

I will concede this. The stealing of the pineapple is just a cartoonist theory to explain why perhaps BR flew into a rage. Something sent somebody in that house into orbit that night.

It could be everyone involved was influenced by the Colorado Child Statutes to play ball with the Ramsey's and lets say, not investigate matters fully neglecting some due process here and there?

Outcome: Only one child lost.

Reasonable conclusion.

 

[UKGuy]

UKGuy,
Apparently the BPD did not log those pajama pants into evidence. There has to be a reason for this, since Kolar’s states their presence.
JB could have been wearing any pair of size 6 underwear. If they didn’t have a dirty cloths hamper, I am sure the floor would suffice in that house.

Rain on my Parade,

Apparently the BPD did not log those pajama pants into evidence. There has to be a reason for this, since Kolar’s states their presence.

You have to wonder why? They logged JonBenet's sheets, so why not the pajama pants, how about JonBenet's pants in her bathroom, were they itemized?

JB could have been wearing any pair of size 6 underwear. If they didn’t have a dirty cloths hamper, I am sure the floor would suffice in that house.

Could have been any pair of size-6 underwear. Yet we know from Patsy's own mouth that she purchased a set of size-6 Bloomingdale's Day Of The Week underwear for JonBenet on their NY trip. So my money is on the missing pair being Bloomingdales size-6 Wednesday?

BPD have never made public the Brand or Day Of The Week features relating to underwear taken from JonBenets underwear drawer!

Another aspect is the smeared candy box, a red flag IMO, did BPD dna test this fecal matter against that left in the pajama bottoms and in JonBenet's pants on her bathroom floor, i.e. ruling out an intruder doing the smearing?

Now all grown up, what does Doug Stine think of it all, will he be doing any interviews, you know some talking points could be about Burke telling him what happened in the wine-cellar?

Doug Stine factors into my BDI theory big time, will he tell all, does he have a price, what does his Mom have to say?

If he does not want to do an interview, what does that tell us?
.

 

[Rain on my Parade]

Doug Stine factors into my BDI theory big time, will he tell all, does he have a price, what does his Mom have to say?

If he does not want to do an interview, what does that tell us?

UKGuy,
It tells us he is guilty.

 

[UKGuy]

UKGuy,
It tells us he is guilty.

Rain on my Parade,
Well, minimally he knows something he cannot reveal?

Some research offers a few nuggets:

Death of Innocence" written by John and Patsy Ramsey

Here are a few references to "Susan Stine" from the book, courtesy of acandyrose

Susan Stine began each morning checking the Internet · 154, 304
Susan Stine called 911 when media stole her garbage · 169
Susan Stine car chase · 349, 350
Susan Stine did not trust Kathleen Keane · 187
Susan Stine discovered anonymous chat rooms · 304
Susan Stine discovered e-mail being passed about the crime · 304
Susan Stine discovered Jameson during Internet searches · 304
Susan Stine drove back to Atlanta with the Ramseys 10-10-1999 · 349
Susan Stine drove Burke Ramsey to school · 116, 154
Susan Stine drove Ramsey car in and out of their driveway · 334
Susan Stine followed Internet to learn gossip/rumors in chat rooms · 304
Susan Stine had said she needed a gun, so John gave her one! · 186
Susan Stine had the Ramseys living with them for five months · 304
Susan Stine showed the Ramsey how she checked the Internet · 30

I've bolded those of interest which tend to suggest what Susan Stine's actual role wrt Ramsey's might have been?

So speculating theoretically, three males with access to JonBenet were
1. JAR, as he had bedroom next door to hers.
2. BR similar to JAR, with PR stating JB and BR regularly shared bedrooms.
3. DS Via sleepovers, and general house visits.

Add in the allegations of prior sexual intrusion backed up by Coroner Meyer's Autopsy Report, e.g. enlarged hymen
BPD 1998 -Interview with Patsy, excerpt

25 TOM HANEY: Okay. Ms. Ramsey, are

0581

1 you aware that there had been prior vaginal

2 intrusion on JonBenet?

3 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I am not.

4 Prior to the night she was killed?

5 TOM HANEY: Correct.

6 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I am not.

7 TOM HANEY: Didn't know that?

8 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I didn't.

9 TOM HANEY: Does that surprise you?

10 PATSY RAMSEY: Extremely.

11 TOM HANEY: Does that shock you?

12 PATSY RAMSEY: It shocks me.

13 TOM HANEY: Does it bother you?

14 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes, it does.

15 TOM HANEY: Who, how could she have

16 been violated like that?

17 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't know. This

18 is the absolute first time I ever heard that.

19 TOM HANEY: Take a minute, if you

20 would, I mean this seems -- you know, you didn't

21 know that before right now, the 25th, at 2:32?

22 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I absolutely

23 did not.

IMO JonBenet was a victim in her own house being abused by male(s) who might have had regular access to her?

 

[Rain on my Parade]

Rain on my Parade,
Well, minimally he knows something he cannot reveal?

Some research offers a few nuggets:

Death of Innocence" written by John and Patsy Ramsey

Here are a few references to "Susan Stine" from the book, courtesy of acandyrose

I've bolded those of interest which tend to suggest what Susan Stine's actual role wrt Ramsey's might have been?

So speculating theoretically, three males with access to JonBenet were
1. JAR, as he had bedroom next door to hers.
2. BR similar to JAR, with PR stating JB and BR regularly shared bedrooms.
3. DS Via sleepovers, and general house visits.

Add in the allegations of prior sexual intrusion backed up by Coroner Meyer's Autopsy Report, e.g. enlarged hymen
BPD 1998 -Interview with Patsy, excerpt


IMO JonBenet was a victim in her own house being abused by male(s) who might have had regular access to her?

UKGuy,
I completely agree. And of course JB was a victim in her own home. What we do know is LHP account of BR and JB caught under the covers. Also, Joe Barnhill did originally state he saw JAR @ the house Christmas Day.

 

[David Rogers]

Rain on my Parade,


You have to wonder why? They logged JonBenet's sheets, so why not the pajama pants, how about JonBenet's pants in her bathroom, were they itemized?

Could have been any pair of size-6 underwear. Yet we know from Patsy's own mouth that she purchased a set of size-6 Bloomingdale's Day Of The Week underwear for JonBenet on their NY trip. So my money is on the missing pair being Bloomingdales size-6 Wednesday?

BPD have never made public the Brand or Day Of The Week features relating to underwear taken from JonBenets underwear drawer!

Another aspect is the smeared candy box, a red flag IMO, did BPD dna test this fecal matter against that left in the pajama bottoms and in JonBenet's pants on her bathroom floor, i.e. ruling out an intruder doing the smearing?

Now all grown up, what does Doug Stine think of it all, will he be doing any interviews, you know some talking points could be about Burke telling him what happened in the wine-cellar?

Doug Stine factors into my BDI theory big time, will he tell all, does he have a price, what does his Mom have to say?

If he does not want to do an interview, what does that tell us?
.

Has anyone tries to interview the other kids?

 

[UKGuy]

Has anyone tries to interview the other kids?

David Rogers,
Not really. Some have tried but the parents do not want the publicity. They know that there are secrets best left hidden from view.

BPD might have conducted informal interviews during their door knocking phase but nothing formal as far as I am aware.

.

 

[UKGuy]

UKGuy,
I completely agree. And of course JB was a victim in her own home. What we do know is LHP account of BR and JB caught under the covers. Also, Joe Barnhill did originally state he saw JAR @ the house Christmas Day.

Rain on my Parade,
Sure, it is the chronic abuse that needs explained, probably by those with easy access to JonBenet?

LHP's account of BR and JB caught under the covers is a symptom of what was going on, not so much the actual behavior but the dismissive attitude of JonBenet, telling LHP to go away.

As children just shows how things had become normalized?

.

 

[Tadpole12]

UKGuy,
I completely agree. And of course JB was a victim in her own home. What we do know is LHP account of BR and JB caught under the covers. Also, Joe Barnhill did originally state he saw JAR @ the house Christmas Day.

Wrt Barnhill's sighting of JAR

s-neighbor-joe-betty-barnhill.htm

ST Page 71

"Another reason to interview the Barnhills, however, was that Joe had told the police he had seen JonBenet's older half-brother, John Andrew, in Boulder on the evening of December 25. John Andrew claimed to have been in Atlanta at the time. During the interview Barnhill sheepishly told us he had made a mistake and apologized, saying that he would probably not even recognize the young man in a crowd. That went a long way to firming up John Andrew's alibi."

 

[UKGuy]

Wrt Barnhill's sighting of JAR

s-neighbor-joe-betty-barnhill.htm

ST Page 71

"Another reason to interview the Barnhills, however, was that Joe had told the police he had seen JonBenet's older half-brother, John Andrew, in Boulder on the evening of December 25. John Andrew claimed to have been in Atlanta at the time. During the interview Barnhill sheepishly told us he had made a mistake and apologized, saying that he would probably not even recognize the young man in a crowd. That went a long way to firming up John Andrew's alibi."

Tadpole12,
Yes, it appears JAR's alibi is solid. Even traveling there and back would risk being identified, never mind if it was possible given the constrained time frames.

ST revised his book and theory. BPD had to amend sexual assault to Genital Trauma such were the internal politics playing out between the RST and the investigators on the ground.

The explanation for JonBenet's chronic abuse or Prior Sexual Intrusion as Haney terms it, which I'm adopting is that multiple people were abusing JonBenet.

So its all speculative as some of the anecdotes, e.g. JAR's remarks about JonBenet to his student friends, might all be deliberate internet spin?

The thing is if you want to BR to play a central role in some BDI theory, then how do we account for his behavior, i.e. learned or invented?

.

 

[Rain on my Parade]

Wrt Barnhill's sighting of JAR

s-neighbor-joe-betty-barnhill.htm

ST Page 71

"Another reason to interview the Barnhills, however, was that Joe had told the police he had seen JonBenet's older half-brother, John Andrew, in Boulder on the evening of December 25. John Andrew claimed to have been in Atlanta at the time. During the interview Barnhill sheepishly told us he had made a mistake and apologized, saying that he would probably not even recognize the young man in a crowd. That went a long way to firming up John Andrew's alibi."

Tadpole12,

From the same page:
1997-01-01: JonBenet Archive: Neighbors, police tight-lipped, The Denver Post

"After giving numerous interviews to the media, neighbor Barnhill yesterday declined to speak with reporters, saying the Boulder police had asked him to stop giving interviews.

Barnhill said the family had made the request through the police department.

Barnhill has been contacted by reporters from Los Angeles, New York and the British Broadcasting Corp.

About that time, Dennis Covington, a Redbook correspondent from Birmingham, Ala., showed up on the scene.

Other neighbors said they hadn't been told not to give interviews but declined to do so."

"I know they're interested in keeping it quiet until all the information comes out,'' said one woman who wouldn't give her name. "Some of the things that leaked out weren't from the police.''

"We, as neighbors, really prefer to respect the dignity and privacy (of the Ramseys),'' said another neighbor. "This is a horrible situation.''

Boulderites are very different. They mind their own business! It’s a thing with them. Although the neighbors did notice the lights flickering in the butlers pantry and the sunroom light off; which was always on.

 

[icedtea4me]

<snip>
So speculating theoretically, three males with access to JonBenet were
1. JAR, as he had bedroom next door to hers.
2. BR similar to JAR, with PR stating JB and BR regularly shared bedrooms.
3. DS Via sleepovers, and general house visits.

Add in the allegations of prior sexual intrusion backed up by Coroner Meyer's Autopsy Report, e.g. enlarged hymen
BPD 1998 -Interview with Patsy, excerpt


IMO JonBenet was a victim in her own house being abused by male(s) who might have had regular access to her?

You didn't include John Ramsey because...?

 

[icedtea4me]

icedtea4me,
Thanks for the clarification. I was just wondering who did what? PR lost it over bed wetting. JR was the abuser of JB and perhaps BR? So, they decided to play ball together?

Patsy- a woman who was days away from turning the big 4-0 and whose body and feminine identity had been ravaged by stage 4 ovarian cancer- had been suspecting there was something going on between her husband and daughter but repressed it. Then, that night, Patsy witnessed it with her own two eyes. Maybe she took a swing at John. I don't know. I suspect that JonBenet was simultaneously terrified and angry at her mother for allowing this to keep going on even though she loved her father. She may have said and/or done something to provoke her mother and Patsy reacted by bashing her on the head. It was put upon John to speed up her death via the garrote/twister and get his hands dirty too.

 

[Rain on my Parade]

Patsy- a woman who was days away from turning the big 4-0 and whose body and feminine identity had been ravaged by stage 4 ovarian cancer- had been suspecting there was something going on between her husband and daughter but repressed it. Then, that night, Patsy witnessed it with her own two eyes. Maybe she took a swing at John. I don't know. I suspect that JonBenet was simultaneously terrified and angry at her mother for allowing this to keep going on even though she loved her father. She may have said and/or done something to provoke her mother and Patsy reacted by bashing her on the head. It was put upon John to speed up her death via the garrote/twister and get his hands dirty too.

icedtea4me,
This theory of your although a possibility just doesn’t make sense to me. What reason would PR have to repress knowledge of her daughter being sexually abused? JB isn’t old enough to understand what is being done to her (is wrong) unless a grown up has explained that to her. How can JB be angry @ her mother for something she doesn’t understand?
I can see PR bashing JB on the head if she caught JR in an inappropriate act by mistake. JR was seldom home. Since JB was 3, hitting the pageant circuit, I can see Nedra behind the grooming. PR was going through the thick of her battle during this time. Her mother was the primary care giver of the kids. I lean much more to the Paughs being the abusers. Nedra even stated it in her own words. Although it’s a toss up w/the Dr. Seuss book belonging to JAR and BR and JB caught together under the covers.
As for JR doing the twister ... okay but how do you explain PR supposable fiber evidence in the paint tray and ligature? Why is JR left with wiping JB’s privates?

 

[UKGuy]

You didn't include John Ramsey because...?

icedtea4me,
That would be redundant. He and Patsy are already named as suspects in the GJ True Bills.

.