Still Missing CA - Orson & Orrin West (3&4), California City, 21 Dec 2020 #5

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katydid23 said:
I think that they have to keep the devices because otherwise, the defense could claim the pictures were incomplete, or altered, etc, etc.

But if the state still has the phone or the laptop or the camera, it is easier to verify that the data has not been altered or tampered with.
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Great thoughts. Never even thought of that!
 
mickey2942 said:
I am waiting for "A coyote ate my baby" story...
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This is such an interesting comment and I think very relevant in this case. Lindy Chamberlain claimed that her baby was taken by a dingo in Australia back in the 1980s. A huge number of the Australian public concluded that her "cold and unemotional" demeanor was evidence that she had murdered her own baby. She was tried and found guilty of killing her baby. After years, new evidence emerged and the conviction was overtured.

I have no idea what happened to those precious boys, but I don't think that we can ever "convict" people on the way they react and act in very distressing circumstances.

At this point I think it's still a posibility that the boys were snatched. Another Australian case, little William Tyrrell is similar. William was playing in the yard of his foster family's home. It went quiet and after only a couple of minutes his foster mother and grandmother started looking for him. William has never been found and no one was seen grabbing him.

Hope that all of these littles ones are found.
 
Yeah, it's OT, but a dingo really did take that baby in Australia. :(

Agree you can't convict people based on how they act and what they say and do, as various cases have taught us. It's tempting to start down that path, though.

Thankfully there seems to be evidence in O. and O.'s case (camera footage, sibling testimony, etc.) but we are not yet privy to it.
I hope it's enough evidence to solve this. These adorable boys deserve nothing less.
 
Andieinsyd said:
At this point I think it's still a posibility that the boys were snatched. .
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Snipped for a focused reply.
You are right, it is important to consider all possibilities and not default to one conclusion. Let's consider your theory that the boys were snatched.
How did this not get captured on the neighbors video?

Amateur opinion and speculation
 
rosesfromangels said:
Snipped for a focused reply.
You are right, it is important to consider all possibilities and not default to one conclusion. Let's consider your theory that the boys were snatched.
How did this not get captured on the neighbors video?

Amateur opinion and speculation
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Truth is, we don't really know what is seen on the neighbor(s) videos.
I'm sure I've read there was one from directly across the street, and another from next door.
By now, I'd hope that LE has watched every frame of every video available.
 
I'll play Devils Advocate: we don't see them go out the back gate after Dad goes in the house...for longer than an in-and-out trip...comes out 15 min later? And they are gone out the back gate to be snatched maybe by someone who's been casing the place who likes little boys (they do have an abundance).

I really don't like that. At all. (all MOO/crazy theory)
ETA: Dogs not smelling them aside in this scenario, as the Chief says it can be hit or miss.
 
mishbloom said:
I'll play Devils Advocate: we don't see them go out the back gate after Dad goes in the house...for longer than an in-and-out trip...comes out 15 min later? And they are gone out the back gate to be snatched maybe by someone who's been casing the place who likes little boys (they do have an abundance).

I really don't like that. At all. (all MOO/crazy theory)
ETA: Dogs not smelling them aside in this scenario, as the Chief says it can be hit or miss.
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As a theory that doesn't involve the AP, this sounds plausible to me. The window of opportunity is so small tho, unless the AP left them outside for an extended period of time, which is entirely possible. I do believe either I heard the Chief say, or one of our fellow sleuthers posted that there are no lack of RSO in the area. So, not out of the question. A house with six little boys is an anomaly these days, and could potentially draw attention to an evil doer.

Amateur opinion and speculation
 
rosesfromangels said:
As a theory that doesn't involve the AP, this sounds plausible to me. The window of opportunity is so small tho, unless the AP left them outside for an extended period of time, which is entirely possible. I do believe either I heard the Chief say, or one of our fellow sleuthers posted that there are no lack of RSO in the area. So, not out of the question. A house with six little boys is an anomaly these days, and could potentially draw attention to an evil doer.

Amateur opinion and speculation
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I raised four of them. Believe me, they move quick when they get nosy! ;)

IF! One or both went to the gate and spotted something interesting...or just Free Range!...they could have been further than dad would've believed they could get in five minutes even.

I was thinking this might explain (partially) the perfunctory "drive around the block" that TW did. Maybe he felt that searching out back of the fence was gonna be too much for just them to handle; so he does a quick drive through the development to make sure they didn't go that way. Then he came back to the house and called for help. They are pretty young parents, and I'm sure even us "seasoned veterans" would be happier with quicker assistance. Plus they don't seem to have gotten to know the neighbors in three months...and being a pretty hardcore introvert, I sympathize...so maybe they didn't feel comfortable knocking on doors asking for help. If they knew there were possible RSOs around, might also be more worrying to ask for help.

(all MOO and craziness)
 
mishbloom said:
I raised four of them. Believe me, they move quick when they get nosy! ;)

IF! One or both went to the gate and spotted something interesting...or just Free Range!...they could have been further than dad would've believed they could get in five minutes even.

I was thinking this might explain (partially) the perfunctory "drive around the block" that TW did. Maybe he felt that searching out back of the fence was gonna be too much for just them to handle; so he does a quick drive through the development to make sure they didn't go that way. Then he came back to the house and called for help. They are pretty young parents, and I'm sure even us "seasoned veterans" would be happier with quicker assistance. Plus they don't seem to have gotten to know the neighbors in three months...and being a pretty hardcore introvert, I sympathize...so maybe they didn't feel comfortable knocking on doors asking for help. If they knew there were possible RSOs around, might also be more worrying to ask for help.

(all MOO and craziness)
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While all eyes seem to be on the AP at the moment (I mean LE digging in their backyard was one heck of an indication of suspicion), I do think the possibility that you and our poster friend upthread offered up should be considered. As dedicated sleuthers, we owe it to these children not to close our minds to any possibility that may eventually lead to them being found.
Thank you for offering up some ideas to consider.

Amateur opinion and speculation
 
Apropos of nothing, I drove through Bakersfield today. Full-sized billboard at the side of the road, with Orson and Orrin’s pictures, and offering a $122,000 reward in very readable letters.
 
I would knock on absolutely anyone’s door to find a stranger’s three-year-old child. I cannot even imagine using the excuse that I didn’t know the neighbors to not look for a child. I would talk to any stranger on the street, even a scary looking angry person sitting outside cleaning their guns. I don’t think I’m unique. All I am is a parent.
 
Andieinsyd said:
This is such an interesting comment and I think very relevant in this case. Lindy Chamberlain claimed that her baby was taken by a dingo in Australia back in the 1980s. A huge number of the Australian public concluded that her "cold and unemotional" demeanor was evidence that she had murdered her own baby. She was tried and found guilty of killing her baby. After years, new evidence emerged and the conviction was overtured.

I have no idea what happened to those precious boys, but I don't think that we can ever "convict" people on the way they react and act in very distressing circumstances.

At this point I think it's still a posibility that the boys were snatched. Another Australian case, little William Tyrrell is similar. William was playing in the yard of his foster family's home. It went quiet and after only a couple of minutes his foster mother and grandmother started looking for him. William has never been found and no one was seen grabbing him.

Hope that all of these littles ones are found.
Click to expand...
Yes, the Lindy Chamberlain case was a terrible miscarriage of justice. There was never any convincing evidence that she killed her baby. It just goes to show how influential the public can be. They cared more about protecting the reputation of the dingoes than protecting the rights of the accused.

I understand why the community is upset about the boy's disappearance, but I don't think it helped the investigation that they immediately decided the parents are responsible. The bio family and friends parading in front of the extended family's house shouting "where are the boys," gave the impression that they knew what happened.

I'm glad the Chief spoke out and finally quelled the situation. I hope they are still getting tips. You never know when one will turn into a lead.
 
rosesfromangels said:
Snipped for a focused reply.
You are right, it is important to consider all possibilities and not default to one conclusion. Let's consider your theory that the boys were snatched.
How did this not get captured on the neighbors video?

Amateur opinion and speculation
Click to expand...
It's difficult to even see Trezell in the video we saw so I guess it's possible two small children could have slipped through the gate unseen. There may be areas on the roads that aren't covered by cameras, but I would think any car driving around would have been captured at one point.

I wonder how far any of those roads in the neighborhood are from a main road. Could they have made it to a busier road in just a few minutes and then been picked up? Could they have cut through a yard?
 
MsBetsy said:
It's difficult to even see Trezell in the video we saw so I guess it's possible two small children could have slipped through the gate unseen. There may be areas on the roads that aren't covered by cameras, but I would think any car driving around would have been captured at one point.

I wonder how far any of those roads in the neighborhood are from a main road. Could they have made it to a busier road in just a few minutes and then been picked up? Could they have cut through a yard?
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I think that's where I was going with that line of thought--that video from the neighbor isn't great and (on my tablet especially) I could barely make out TW when he was moving around. The dog was just a bouncing yap. So. If the boys are still really little munchkins, we can maybe say that they are still small enough not to register behind that fence. Which then makes it easier for them to slip out unnoticed.

What does the house actually back up on? For some reason I was thinking that they are out in desert on that side. Or is it just another lot? (I know there's another house to the right back there, but what's to the left behind the gate?)

(all MOO)
 
mishbloom said:
I think that's where I was going with that line of thought--that video from the neighbor isn't great and (on my tablet especially) I could barely make out TW when he was moving around. The dog was just a bouncing yap. So. If the boys are still really little munchkins, we can maybe say that they are still small enough not to register behind that fence. Which then makes it easier for them to slip out unnoticed.

What does the house actually back up on? For some reason I was thinking that they are out in desert on that side. Or is it just another lot? (I know there's another house to the right back there, but what's to the left behind the gate?)

(all MOO)
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Yes, videos are not always clear evidence. Police have to analyze and "investigate" the video evidence itself.
In the video of the family leaving in the van on the 19th, Orson and Orrin can't be seen, but I still think there's a chance they were obscured by the fence.

I'm not sure what's behind the house. I think there are empty lots on either side. To the left behind the gate may be the lot TW was gathering wood from.

I think I read that the desert was a short distance away, but not so close that they could have walked there so fast and disappeared so quickly. I asked early on if anyone knew the exact distance but I'm not sure if anyone answered. I do know that was one of the first areas searched.

Imo
 
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MsBetsy said:
Yes, the Lindy Chamberlain case was a terrible miscarriage of justice. There was never any convincing evidence that she killed her baby. It just goes to show how influential the public can be. They cared more about protecting the reputation of the dingoes than protecting the rights of the accused.

I understand why the community is upset about the boy's disappearance, but I don't think it helped the investigation that they immediately decided the parents are responsible. The bio family and friends parading in front of the extended family's house shouting "where are the boys," gave the impression that they knew what happened.

I'm glad the Chief spoke out and finally quelled the situation. I hope they are still getting tips. You never know when one will turn into a lead.
Click to expand...

I never knew what to believe about the dingo eating the baby.
 
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