Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #130

[MntnHiker]

I read this thread every day but don't always have time to post. Thank you everyone for keeping this so active and I hope soon the girls' families can get justice for them.

A couple things I'm wondering: If he said "Guys" and then there's a few seconds before "Down the hill," maybe his "guys" was to get their attention, they turn toward him and he brandishes a gun and then directs them "down the hill." The slight inflection at the end of "guys" is almost like he's saying it to get their attention.

Also with the two sketches and the comments about someone knows something, etc., I do wonder if one of the sketches (maybe the first one of the older looking man?) was someone seen idling in a car nearby that day. Perhaps the younger looking sketch was BG and a man seen on the trails who physically committed the crime but he had a lookout/ride? I know they had asked about a car at the CPS lot. It could have even been the ride parked there and walked around for a bit or it could end up being that car has nothing to do with this crime. Just a thought MOO

 

[Yemelyan]

Stretching my memory back to those early days, I recall it was later clarified by LE how they weren’t allowed to announce the deaths as homicides during that PC because the Coroner’s Report hadn’t yet been signed off.

To confirm that would require searching the threads but I do remember this has been discussed before.

This is correct IMO. The pronouncement of homicide had not yet been made by the forensic pathologist. A sure sign that LE already knew that they were, in fact, dealing with foul play/homicide is that the local Carroll County coroner did not perform the autopsies, but the victims were transported to Terre Haute so a certified forensic pathologist could do them (in Indiana coroners are local elected officials who are often funeral home directors and such; they are certified death examiners but are not qualified by the state to perform autopsies of suspected homicides):

Autopsies confirm bodies are those of 2 missing Indiana girls

In that first press conference, they couldn't even confirm whose bodies had been found - not because the victims were unrecognizable or because LE are so incompetent they can't put two and two together, but because the autopsy wasn't done and positive ID officially made.

 

[JudgeJudi]

Have you contacted investigators to share your observations?

No I have not, I wasn’t sure how to go about that. If you have any advice for me, I’m all ears. It’s uncharted territory for me so would appreciate any thoughts on how to navigate this.

Email is the preferred way to send tips to help solve this crime.

Anyone with information about this case is encouraged to send tips to this email address: abbyandlibbytip@cacoshrf.com

Information sent by email is kept confidential and is only shared with investigators. The telephone Tip Line is (844) 459-5786. Tips are also accepted by the Indiana State Police at (800) 382-7537, or by the Carroll County Sheriff’s Department at (765) 564-2413.

Tip Information Contacts
e-Mail: abbyandlibbytip@cacoshrf.com
Tip Line: (844) 459-5786
Indiana State Police: (800) 382-7537
Carroll County Sheriff: (765) 564-2413

ISP: Delphi Homicide Investigation

Prosecutors are looking for specific information in tips, including the name of the suspect or person of interest; a detailed description and personal identifiers, such as tattoos or birthmarks; age or birth date; last known address or place where the person is often seen; and lastly, their possible motivation and connection to the case.

 

[EndlessEnigma]

I vaguely remembering reading that I believe (don’t hold me to it) that the ISP spokesperson who just recently retired, said something along the lines of the video also captured one of the girls reactions to what was taking place, after BG said “guys, DTH”.
I am not sure if I read it on thread 129 or if I saw it on a YouTube video/podcast, or if someone posted about that or an article with a link attached.
So all I’m going to say about that right now is MOO, and I hope this post of mine does not get deleted.

I can definitely make out a scream. One of the girls screamed “oh my God” between “Guys” and “down the hill”. It is garbled but I can still hear it.

 

[JustAnotherJD]

I read this thread every day but don't always have time to post. Thank you everyone for keeping this so active and I hope soon the girls' families can get justice for them.

A couple things I'm wondering: If he said "Guys" and then there's a few seconds before "Down the hill," maybe his "guys" was to get their attention, they turn toward him and he brandishes a gun and then directs them "down the hill." The slight inflection at the end of "guys" is almost like he's saying it to get their attention.

I'm new here, so this has probably been discussed thoroughly already, but I also have an opinion about the audio file. Imagine BG is someone that is tangentially connected to the two girls, as in they might recognize him to some extent, and he they, although they probably don't know each others names. His face is just somewhat recognizable as an adult they have seen before, perhaps in some position of authority (relative authority, at least in the eyes of a young girl).

BG approaches the girls on the bridge and plays into that role. He tells them "Guys" almost as if he is disappointed in them that he found them on the bridge, somewhere they are not supposed to be. He then points towards where he wants them to go and tells them "down the hill," and they comply because they think they are just being directed off the bridge.

I do think that BG had a gun, but I think that this is a more likely scenario for how he got them off of the bridge than him coercing them at gunpoint, just because of how visible they would be out on the bridge.

 

[MistyWaters]

This is correct IMO. The pronouncement of homicide had not yet been made by the forensic pathologist. A sure sign that LE already knew that they were, in fact, dealing with foul play/homicide is that the local Carroll County coroner did not perform the autopsies, but the victims were transported to Terre Haute so a certified forensic pathologist could do them (in Indiana coroners are local elected officials who are often funeral home directors and such; they are certified death examiners but are not qualified by the state to perform autopsies of suspected homicides):

Autopsies confirm bodies are those of 2 missing Indiana girls

In that first press conference, they couldn't even confirm whose bodies had been found - not because the victims were unrecognizable or because LE are so incompetent they can't put two and two together, but because the autopsy wasn't done and positive ID officially made.

That’s right, thank you, that official autopsy reports were not yet completed was the same reason the victims couldn’t immediately be publicly named, which sent people off on a speculative tangent the bodies must’ve been unrecognizable. Full circle to maybe LE didn’t know they’d been murdered. But LE never said this. What they did say was searchers didn’t recognize it was a crime scene.

There can be many explanations for that, one of which would be there was the no blatantly obvious indication of murder through the visual observation by laymen, depending on distance. I think this also puts to rest any speculation about the staging the bodies in gruesome poses, (thankfully, and perhaps the rational behind LE making this recent statement). JMO

 

[MistyWaters]

<Modsnip deleted post>

Excellent post. I also notice an dangerous disconnect from reality in the hunt for the killer. The fact that real, living and breathing people and their families suffer from these vicious online allegations seems to escape them. For those targeted, they’ve no way of defending themselves or clearing their reputation. Those who participate might think it’s a rewarding endeavour but it’s really no different than hurtful and malicious rumours that typically circulate around a schoolyard in junior high school. Accusing a stranger of committing a crime without any basis, I’d go as far to say it’s a despicable form of online bullying crossing into the territory of anonymous vigilante justice.

I’m grateful WS doesn’t allow such nonsense or I wouldn’t be here. JMO

 

[photographer4]

I'm currently reading: Crime Classification Manual. Second Edition, A Standard System For Identifying And Classifying Violent Crimes written by: John E. Douglas, Ann W. Burgess, Allen G. Burgess & Robert K. Ressler.

I found this very interesting quote that I wanted to share here:

"...there are not many cases of posing, that is,when the offender treats the victim like a prop to leave a specific message.These crimes are usually crimes of anger and of power. It is the thrill of the hunt, the thrill of the kill, and the thrill afterward of how the offender leaves the victim that makes the offender feel as though he has beat the system." (p. 35).

I wonder if that is why LE has said:
"we know this is about power to you. You want to know what we know, that one day, you will" https://www.wrtv.com/news/delphi/the-delphi-murders-four-years-later-and-still-no-arrests

LE has also said in the April 2019 press release something to the effect of they can assure the killer how he left them is now how they are now.

We have also heard LE say:
"To the murderer, I believe you have just little bit of a conscience left, and I can assure you that how you left them in that woods is not what they're experiencing today," Delphi murders update 2019: New suspect sketch, video released

While reading the book I cited above they discussed signs of remorse found at crime scenes. Specifically, they discuss crime scenes where the offender has washed the body, or covered the body / face of the victim, and note that: "the offender engages in these activities not because he is attempting to hide the victim but because he may be feeling some degree of remorse" (p. 34).
*****************************************
After reading these articles, and delving into this book, I now more fully understand what the police may have been looking at during the course of their investigation. Maybe searchers didn't know immediately what they had stumbled onto as has been stated by LE in various media, because perhaps the killer took the time to wash blood from the victims and perhaps even covered the victims or their specific injuries (again, the idea that there was blood at the scene, or that injuries may have been covered by the killer is ONLY A POSSIBILITY, it has not been stated in the media how the girls were killed, so it was merely stated as an example at best!).

Maybe they believe this was about power because of how the girls were left as well (posed, perhaps with items of interest or missing items).

I do not know, and I do not need to know. I only hope the investigators acquire enough information and insight to catch the killer!

 

[Satchie]

I'm currently reading: Crime Classification Manual. Second Edition, A Standard System For Identifying And Classifying Violent Crimes written by: John E. Douglas, Ann W. Burgess, Allen G. Burgess & Robert K. Ressler.

I found this very interesting quote that I wanted to share here:

"...there are not many cases of posing, that is,when the offender treats the victim like a prop to leave a specific message.These crimes are usually crimes of anger and of power. It is the thrill of the hunt, the thrill of the kill, and the thrill afterward of how the offender leaves the victim that makes the offender feel as though he has beat the system." (p. 35).

I wonder if that is why LE has said:
"we know this is about power to you. You want to know what we know, that one day, you will" https://www.wrtv.com/news/delphi/the-delphi-murders-four-years-later-and-still-no-arrests

LE has also said in the April 2019 press release something to the effect of they can assure the killer how he left them is now how they are now.

We have also heard LE say:
"To the murderer, I believe you have just little bit of a conscience left, and I can assure you that how you left them in that woods is not what they're experiencing today," Delphi murders update 2019: New suspect sketch, video released

While reading the book I cited above they discussed signs of remorse found at crime scenes. Specifically, they discuss crime scenes where the offender has washed the body, or covered the body / face of the victim, and note that: "the offender engages in these activities not because he is attempting to hide the victim but because he may be feeling some degree of remorse" (p. 34).
*****************************************
After reading these articles, and delving into this book, I now more fully understand what the police may have been looking at during the course of their investigation. Maybe searchers didn't know immediately what they had stumbled onto as has been stated by LE in various media, because perhaps the killer took the time to wash blood from the victims and perhaps even covered the victims or their specific injuries (again, the idea that there was blood at the scene, or that injuries may have been covered by the killer is ONLY A POSSIBILITY, it has not been stated in the media how the girls were killed, so it was merely stated as an example at best!).

Maybe they believe this was about power because of how the girls were left as well (posed, perhaps with items of interest or missing items).

I do not know, and I do not need to know. I only hope the investigators acquire enough information and insight to catch the killer!

The impression I got from that 2019 press conference was that they were using everything criminal profilers could glean about his likely attitude/mind state to 'pych him out': stir up the sense of guilt and fear that he'll be caught, so he'll do or say something that gives himself away.

 

[Pyschsandi]

The impression I got from that 2019 press conference was that they were using everything criminal profilers could glean about his likely attitude/mind state to 'pych him out': stir up the sense of guilt and fear that he'll be caught, so he'll do or say something that gives himself away.

I got the same impression that they were using the profile. The age 18-40 (profile), LE saying to BG it’s about power (profile). The only part that I personally don’t think is part of the profile is that this guy has any conscience left. I think that LE is hoping this guy has some conscience left but to kill 2 beautiful girls, I don’t think this guy has anything that resembles a human feeling. JMO.

 

[Pyschsandi]

I'm currently reading: Crime Classification Manual. Second Edition, A Standard System For Identifying And Classifying Violent Crimes written by: John E. Douglas, Ann W. Burgess, Allen G. Burgess & Robert K. Ressler.

I found this very interesting quote that I wanted to share here:

"...there are not many cases of posing, that is,when the offender treats the victim like a prop to leave a specific message.These crimes are usually crimes of anger and of power. It is the thrill of the hunt, the thrill of the kill, and the thrill afterward of how the offender leaves the victim that makes the offender feel as though he has beat the system." (p. 35).

I wonder if that is why LE has said:
"we know this is about power to you. You want to know what we know, that one day, you will" https://www.wrtv.com/news/delphi/the-delphi-murders-four-years-later-and-still-no-arrests

LE has also said in the April 2019 press release something to the effect of they can assure the killer how he left them is now how they are now.

We have also heard LE say:
"To the murderer, I believe you have just little bit of a conscience left, and I can assure you that how you left them in that woods is not what they're experiencing today," Delphi murders update 2019: New suspect sketch, video released

While reading the book I cited above they discussed signs of remorse found at crime scenes. Specifically, they discuss crime scenes where the offender has washed the body, or covered the body / face of the victim, and note that: "the offender engages in these activities not because he is attempting to hide the victim but because he may be feeling some degree of remorse" (p. 34).
*****************************************
After reading these articles, and delving into this book, I now more fully understand what the police may have been looking at during the course of their investigation. Maybe searchers didn't know immediately what they had stumbled onto as has been stated by LE in various media, because perhaps the killer took the time to wash blood from the victims and perhaps even covered the victims or their specific injuries (again, the idea that there was blood at the scene, or that injuries may have been covered by the killer is ONLY A POSSIBILITY, it has not been stated in the media how the girls were killed, so it was merely stated as an example at best!).

Maybe they believe this was about power because of how the girls were left as well (posed, perhaps with items of interest or missing items).

I do not know, and I do not need to know. I only hope the investigators acquire enough information and insight to catch the killer!

BG could have been feeling remorse, but there was also staging done which the man could cover the girls to try to make it look like he felt bad about it.

 

[photographer4]

I got the same impression that they were using the profile. The age 18-40 (profile), LE saying to BG it’s about power (profile). The only part that I personally don’t think is part of the profile is that this guy has any conscience left. I think that LE is hoping this guy has some conscience left but to kill 2 beautiful girls, I don’t think this guy has anything that resembles a human feeling. JMO.

I think he may have demonstrated some small bit of conscience at the scene before he left the kids. Maybe he covered them, or cleaned them in some way. Not sure. But this book is making me really think about what LE might have been seeing at the scene at the time!

 

[photographer4]

BG could have been feeling remorse, but there was also staging done which the man could cover the girls to try to make it look like he felt bad about it.

From everything I'm reading, if he covered them up, even so much as HOW he covered them, how much of them he covered up, when he covered them.... all plays a role in the investigation of the crime scene. I'm wondering, IF he staged the scene, did he do so to try to make it seem like it was someone else, or some other motive perhaps? Or was he familiar with investigative aspects, and knew that doing X would lead investigators down this path or that path vs whatever really went down?

 

[MistyWaters]

From everything I'm reading, if he covered them up, even so much as HOW he covered them, how much of them he covered up, when he covered them.... all plays a role in the investigation of the crime scene. I'm wondering, IF he staged the scene, did he do so to try to make it seem like it was someone else, or some other motive perhaps? Or was he familiar with investigative aspects, and knew that doing X would lead investigators down this path or that path vs whatever really went down?

If victims are covered or attempts are made to hide their bodies, wouldn’t the typical reason be to delay discovery of the crime? The longer that time passes, the more difficult it becomes for forensic teams to gather “fresh” evidence and witnesses to recall precise details.

Hiding a body isn’t really “staging” in the true sense, as it’s not done to misdirect an investigation into mistaking the manner of death (ie an accident occurred instead of murder). Typically hiding a body simply conceals a homicide from being discovered quickly.

If there were attempts were made to implicate an innocent person, LE has never said but if that were so, it was unsuccessful as nobody has been charged. But that’s a great example why I doubt any suspect would be charged solely on DNA or identifiable items found near a crime scene in an outdoor publicly accessible area that was also unfenced. Because it doesn’t prove beyond reasonable doubt that same person was responsible for committing the murders. The path from the cemetery along RL’s land looked fairly well worn iirc suggesting the crime scene location was near a short cut to the bridge used by others from time to time. JMO

 

[MistyWaters]

BG could have been feeling remorse, but there was also staging done which the man could cover the girls to try to make it look like he felt bad about it.

Showing remorse is when one immediately contacts LE and confesses to exactly what they did.

 

[Pyschsandi]

If victims are covered or attempts are made to hide their bodies, wouldn’t the typical reason be to delay discovery of the crime? The longer that time passes, the more difficult it becomes for forensic teams to gather “fresh” evidence and witnesses to recall precise details.

Hiding a body isn’t really “staging” in the true sense, as it’s not done to misdirect an investigation into mistaking the manner of death (ie an accident occurred instead of murder). Typically hiding a body simply conceals a homicide from being discovered quickly.

If there were attempts were made to implicate an innocent person, LE has never said but if that were so, it was unsuccessful as nobody has been charged. But that’s a great example why I doubt any suspect would be charged solely on DNA or identifiable items found near a crime scene in an outdoor publicly accessible area that was also unfenced. Because it doesn’t prove beyond reasonable doubt that same person was responsible for committing the murders. The path from the cemetery along RL’s land looked fairly well worn iirc suggesting the crime scene location was near a short cut to the bridge used by others from time to time. JMO

From the many books I’ve read by profilers, covering the body can mean as you said hiding it so it’s not easily seen. The perpetrator will also cover a body so they can’t see what they had just done. In covering the body, the perpetrator may feel remorse or they feel some type of shame, possibly an afterthought after they come out of the frenzied like haze they had been in while committing the crime. All of this is JMO.

 

[sunshineray]

Is there anyone else, besides myself, that analyzed his gait pattern?
I am a physical therapy doctor and I specialize in neurological rehabilitation.
I understand that this bridge appears to be very uneven, does anyone know if it is sloped at a decline towards the left?
Regardless of the structure of the bridge I believe that this man has very distinct gait characteristics. BG demonstrates a stepparent gait pattern with increased hip flexion on the right that is not evident on the left, he also appears to shift his weight over his left side when the right limb is stepping forwards. I have analyzed this video with great detail. What this kind of gay pattern suggests is some sort of neurological event that occurred in his past. I know that people are saying that he’s likely around 40 years of age which usually isn’t a common age to have suffered from a stroke . But I’m this gait pattern could be a result of a variety of
Spinal cord impairments as well. Even something as simple as bad low back pain and dysfunction.

I’m hoping others with expertise in gait analysis like
myself will continue to look into this as it could provide important information into the BG’s past that may help distinguish BG from others

I'm wondering if anyone knows if there are pictures online that show that exact area (probably at the most a 6ft span) of the Monon High Bridge?

I know Gray Hughes has done a lot of videos and others too about where exactly he was walking when Libby took the video.

Has anyone just taken still pictures of what the killer was stepping over/avoiding, the conditions of the planks?

Those pictures might help professionals like MegPTdoc in reviewing the video better.

 

[Pyschsandi]

I'm wondering if anyone knows if there are pictures online that show that exact area (probably at the most a 6ft span) of the Monon High Bridge?

I know Gray Hughes has done a lot of videos and others too about where exactly he was walking when Libby took the video.

Has anyone just taken still pictures of what the killer was stepping over/avoiding, the conditions of the planks?

Those pictures might help professionals like MegPTdoc in reviewing the video better.

Go back to the first page of this discussion, then check out the map page. There are pictures and videos that show the bridge.

 

[Nancy1954]

In the Jason Hebert interview with Anna Williams that was linked above in the last few pages, Anna says that there is only a second or two of unclear sound between the "Guys" and "Down the hill" segments, and that's the only thing BG is heard saying on it. So either that's what she was told by LE, or it's what she actually heard herself. You can actually say several words in a second or two, but that doesn't mean he did.

She makes this statement somewhere in the first half hour of the interview. I haven't yet listened to the entire thing, but I got that far into it this afternoon.

I nearly cried when Anna discussed discovering after the girls were killed that Abby had a forbidden Facebook account. Parenting is so rough at that age, even with a good sweet kid, because as a parent you know how at risk they are, and want to protect them from meanness and danger – but meanwhile they just want to explore life and fit in and have fun and be goofy. They don't know that with your rules and restrictions you're only trying to limit the chance that some nightmare scenario might befall them.

Anna laughed, sounding a bit resigned, when revealing that Abby's FB profile said she worked at Krusty's Krabs – and my heart broke a little right there. They really were just kids. No doubt they thought they were mature now that they were teenagers, capable of making their own decisions and taking on the wider world, and their families' rules chafed them - but meanwhile they were joking around about SpongeBob on their social media.

 

[Nancy1954]

In the Jason Hebert interview with Anna Williams that was linked above in the last few pages, Anna says that there is only a second or two of unclear sound between the "Guys" and "Down the hill" segments, and that's the only thing BG is heard saying on it. So either that's what she was told by LE, or it's what she actually heard herself. You can actually say several words in a second or two, but that doesn't mean he did.

She makes this statement somewhere in the first half hour of the interview. I haven't yet listened to the entire thing, but I got that far into it this afternoon.

I nearly cried when Anna discussed discovering after the girls were killed that Abby had a forbidden Facebook account. Parenting is so rough at that age, even with a good sweet kid, because as a parent you know how at risk they are, and want to protect them from meanness and danger – but meanwhile they just want to explore life and fit in and have fun and be goofy. They don't know that with your rules and restrictions you're only trying to limit the chance that some nightmare scenario might befall them.

Anna laughed, sounding a bit resigned, when revealing that Abby's FB profile said she worked at Krusty's Krabs – and my heart broke a little right there. They really were just kids. No doubt they thought they were mature now that they were teenagers, capable of making their own decisions and taking on the wider world, and their families' rules chafed them - but meanwhile they were joking around about SpongeBob on their social media.