How many people would think about using those though? (I wouldn't)Ok, but those zip ties are widely available at stores like Home Depot in various sizes and colours. In fact I have some myself (and I ain't a killer)
Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #15
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Lexiintoronto
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: ( I did early on in these threads. And of course I googled the subject of zip ties used as ligatures. So I’m off to throw my phone into the ocean.
MistyWaters
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Don’t throw your phone! I also recall reading about other instances where zip ties were used to restrain victims of crime. It’s probably not really surprising considering zip ties have virtually replaced rope.
I didn't mean, 'how many would've thought about using zip ties for that purpose, after it was reported that zip ties may have been used on the hands', I meant.. 'how many would've thought about using zip ties for the purpose of strangling someone (or handcuffing someone)'. Everyone but me? Mind you, I'm not into construction, but many close to me are,.. I'll have to ask around to see how many use those zipties, and might have them on hand, or think about using them.
Here is a link to today's article which is open without subscription:
What do the mysterious cases of Barry and Honey Sherman and Jeffrey Epstein have in common? A U-shaped neck bone to which too much significance is attached during a death investigation - Today News Post
What do the mysterious cases of Barry and Honey Sherman and Jeffrey Epstein have in common? A U-shaped neck bone to which too much significance is attached during a death investigation - Today News Post
Lexiintoronto
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I meant as ligatures—to strangle them.
“I think a different ligature could have been used from behind, as dotr suggested. The belts were used first to restrain them while alive and kept them in position after death.
Maybe the killers went there armed with a gun and zips ties or something similar?”
Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #12
Just a few examples of zip ties causing death..
2013
''The killing weapon was a zip tie, a standard gray plastic strip that is used to hold together bundles of steel or hard plastic. The zip tie was pulled so tight that it left marks that resembled railroad tracks on Roberts’ neck.''
https://www.heraldonline.com/news/local/news-columns-blogs/andrew-dys/article12286187.html
Lakeville man strangled wife, self with plastic ties
2007
''LAKEVILLE — Heritage Hill Country Club owner William Raynor strangled his wife with a plastic “zip tie,” then killed himself the same way, the Plymouth County District Attorney’s Office said yesterday after reviewing an autopsy report.
Spokeswoman Bridget Norton Middleton said William Raynor, 59, and Barbara Raynor, 60, were found in bed together Friday. Both had the locking fasteners known as zip ties, wire ties or cable ties around their necks.''
Texas man accused of killing wife in bizarre zip tie crime
2015
''KATY, TX -- A man is charged with murder in the death of his wife, in a bizarre scene where authorities believe he tried to make himself look like a crime victim.
On Tuesday morning, a Katy woman called 911 when a bleeding man knocked on her window and passed out, according to court documents. Ion Stanciu and his wife Ancuta Stanciu were both taken to a hospital by EMS. Ancuta was not breathing at the time, and died by strangulation, choked by a zip tie around her neck.
Ion told a Harris County Sheriff's deputy that he came home from work around 7:30am, but that he couldn't remember anything after that. He claimed he woke up with a zip tie around his neck, one on his legs and one on his hands, which were bound behind his back. He said that he left his bedroom and fell down the stairs, when the tie on his hands fell off. He was then able to get a knife to cut the zip tie off his feet.''
2013
''The killing weapon was a zip tie, a standard gray plastic strip that is used to hold together bundles of steel or hard plastic. The zip tie was pulled so tight that it left marks that resembled railroad tracks on Roberts’ neck.''
https://www.heraldonline.com/news/local/news-columns-blogs/andrew-dys/article12286187.html
Lakeville man strangled wife, self with plastic ties
2007
''LAKEVILLE — Heritage Hill Country Club owner William Raynor strangled his wife with a plastic “zip tie,” then killed himself the same way, the Plymouth County District Attorney’s Office said yesterday after reviewing an autopsy report.
Spokeswoman Bridget Norton Middleton said William Raynor, 59, and Barbara Raynor, 60, were found in bed together Friday. Both had the locking fasteners known as zip ties, wire ties or cable ties around their necks.''
Texas man accused of killing wife in bizarre zip tie crime
2015
''KATY, TX -- A man is charged with murder in the death of his wife, in a bizarre scene where authorities believe he tried to make himself look like a crime victim.
On Tuesday morning, a Katy woman called 911 when a bleeding man knocked on her window and passed out, according to court documents. Ion Stanciu and his wife Ancuta Stanciu were both taken to a hospital by EMS. Ancuta was not breathing at the time, and died by strangulation, choked by a zip tie around her neck.
Ion told a Harris County Sheriff's deputy that he came home from work around 7:30am, but that he couldn't remember anything after that. He claimed he woke up with a zip tie around his neck, one on his legs and one on his hands, which were bound behind his back. He said that he left his bedroom and fell down the stairs, when the tie on his hands fell off. He was then able to get a knife to cut the zip tie off his feet.''
Lexiintoronto
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I meant as the murder weapon.
It didn’t make sense to me that the killer would target the Shermans and enter the home without the murder weapons in hand.
Criminologist Michael Arntfield said it would have taken great strength to strangle them, and it’s a very personal way to kill someone.
But possibly not if the killer(s) used zip ties. : (
ETA: Edited out information as dotr found cases.
@deugirtni
Zipties around necks or binding a pair of wrists or ankles?
Length = 24" and tensile strength = 175 lbs. For our metric friends: ~ 60 cm and ~ 79 kg.
Home Depot & Lowes shoppers? Or Amazon Prime members?
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08GYT7FM...9Y2xpY2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU=
ETA: Gastroenterologists performing colon anastomosis surgeries using
"The I-Tie® device, a flexible band with a case at one end containing a locking mechanism..."
A self-locking loop as an alternative to purse-string suture in colon anastomosis: a feasibility study
Looks like a ziptie. Whoops, too small. Now back to the Shermans.
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Lexiintoronto
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Thank you for finding the cases.
I didn’t consider the ‘railway markings’ the straps would leave. Maybe if the zip ties were placed over another material they wouldn’t leave those marks?
Kerry Winter
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Keep milking the cow Kevin!!! It will dry up soon.
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From google image searches, most zip ties don't have the cut outs that would cause the railway markings. Some plastic ties have a nylon backing, which I assume is to prevent marring the surface of whatever is being wrapped in one. This type of tie could have left more subtle marks that were noticed by the second pathologist. Just a thought.
March 17 2021
Lead homicide detective in Barry and Honey Sherman case did not go to crime scene on Old Colony Road for four days
''The 911 call from 50 Old Colony Rd. brought police to the home in the Bayview Avenue and Highway 401 area of Toronto. The bodies of billionaires Barry and Honey Sherman had been discovered by a realtor.
Firefighters and paramedics arrived first, then police at 11:54 a.m. — 10 minutes after the 911 call on Friday, Dec. 15, 2017. The suspicious nature of the apparently staged scene — two dead bodies, faces purple indicating they had been dead for a while, discovered in the basement swimming pool room with belts around their necks — prompted uniformed officers to call in homicide, the specialized unit that handles suspicious deaths.''
Lead homicide detective in Barry and Honey Sherman case did not go to crime scene on Old Colony Road for four days
''The 911 call from 50 Old Colony Rd. brought police to the home in the Bayview Avenue and Highway 401 area of Toronto. The bodies of billionaires Barry and Honey Sherman had been discovered by a realtor.
Firefighters and paramedics arrived first, then police at 11:54 a.m. — 10 minutes after the 911 call on Friday, Dec. 15, 2017. The suspicious nature of the apparently staged scene — two dead bodies, faces purple indicating they had been dead for a while, discovered in the basement swimming pool room with belts around their necks — prompted uniformed officers to call in homicide, the specialized unit that handles suspicious deaths.''
If, like me, you're a fan of police procedural novels (esp. UK), the lead detective ALWAYS rushes to the crime scene, before single-handedly solving the case, of course. But I wonder if that's usual here in Canada? This struck me as the most outspokenly critical of TPS Donovan has been. Is it just to spin another article, or does it actually matter?
In the article:
(I'll put into my own words):
KD has been wondering how the case was, he believes, mistaken as a M/S vs a M/M, so he started looking into which parties attended the scene, and that is when he discovered the lead did not attend.
Then he spoke with oldtimer previous homicide detectives who opined that the lead on any given case should attend the scene while any bodies are still there. As usual, these previous police spoke anonymously.
MistyWaters
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I’m not sure that it matters as Price was on the scene and he’s now the lead homicide detective.
Here is a quote I found interesting from today's article: (RBBM)
"...Veteran former homicide detectives told the Star that in their opinion the lead investigator on a case should attend a crime scene when the bodies are present. The former officers spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to speak about the case..."
So who could these supposed "veteran former homicide detectives"(note: plural) be? If they are retired, or no longer with the force, why would they be "not authorized to speak about the case"? To me, this suggests the following set of alternatives:
a) they are former homicide detectives but employed by the TPS and therefore not allowed to talk about the case. This seems unlikely to me given the KD reference to more than one detective- how many former homicide detectives are with the TPS in another capacity?
b) former TPS homicide detectives who are no longer with the TPS but still for some reason not allowed to talk about the case. There are 2 alternatives here:
What do others think?
"...Veteran former homicide detectives told the Star that in their opinion the lead investigator on a case should attend a crime scene when the bodies are present. The former officers spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to speak about the case..."
So who could these supposed "veteran former homicide detectives"(note: plural) be? If they are retired, or no longer with the force, why would they be "not authorized to speak about the case"? To me, this suggests the following set of alternatives:
a) they are former homicide detectives but employed by the TPS and therefore not allowed to talk about the case. This seems unlikely to me given the KD reference to more than one detective- how many former homicide detectives are with the TPS in another capacity?
b) former TPS homicide detectives who are no longer with the TPS but still for some reason not allowed to talk about the case. There are 2 alternatives here:
i) They used to work on the Sherman case while at the TPS, but are no longer with the TPS and cannot comment on the case because they worked on it. This also seems unlikely- how many homicide detectives worked on the Sherman case and are no longer with the TPS?
ii) They worked on the Sherman case but were NOT TPS homicide detectives at the time. They are not allowed to discuss the case because they worked on in some capacity. IMO this points the finger directly at members of the Greenspan PI team.
So my conclusion is, if KD's article is factual, he got this information from more than one PI team member. There seems no other logical explanation, and if true, isn't it likely that they leaked stuff to KD or discussed the case with him before now? ii) They worked on the Sherman case but were NOT TPS homicide detectives at the time. They are not allowed to discuss the case because they worked on in some capacity. IMO this points the finger directly at members of the Greenspan PI team.
What do others think?
Watch Broadchurch and Shetland on Netflix- fantastic UK murder series.
I happen to prefer reading
Shetland was based on Anne Cleeve's books, which are wonderful, but there so many more great Brit and Irish crime novels.
MistyWaters
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Maybe KW put the retired detective he often spoke about in touch with KD!
Otherwise guessing who KD spoke to is impossible, “former” could refer to someone who retired 20 years ago. And of course they wouldn’t be authorized to speak about the case because they know nothing about it.....an example of creative word-smithing. JMO
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