Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #131

[Blanche]

Link to case map:

Abigail Williams & Liberty German. Delphi, IN. 2/13/17 - Google My Maps

Thank you for the link.

 

[stattlich1]

GH was able to overlay the photo to spot on the bridge with the forked tree and the platform in the background, even matching up the worn rail ties using the video recorded by Julie M, so I don’t think the photo LE released is flipped.

Just a comment here, there surely are 'flipped' photos around, here's one.....

 

[infinit]

It occurs to me that it would be important to know whether LG recorded the video in "selfie" mode (when the camera takes a "mirror image") as well as whether LG had adjusted her phone settings to correct for that. If taken in "selfie" mode and not adjusted to flip the image, the jacket would appear to fasten on the opposite side from that on which it actually does fasten.

The same consideration applies when looking at BG's gait, posture, mannerisms as he walks - we may actually be looking at a "mirror image."

That would seem like something LE might be able to disclose without revealing anything that might compromise an investigation and that might actually assist someone considering submitting a tip about someone they know or are aware of - when we look at the still photos and video of BG, are we looking at a true image or a mirror image?

If this issue has already been addressed, my apologies.

I don't think he has a gait and he doesn't walk that abnormally considering he is walking on the bridge. It appears to me that when the recording stops he is changing his direction from straight to towards the phone, it would thus make sense why LE cut it off there and why perhaps Libby moved and thus he was no longer in shot.

I'm not sure if this is an allowed source but all it is is someone using readily available tools to try improve the video which is what I base this off:

 

[infinit]

Just a comment here, there surely are 'flipped' photos around, here's one.....

It's not flipped from my understanding. They were standing to the right side of the bridge from their pespective and based on the trees and platform behind they pick up the left side of the bridge (again from the cameras perspective) in the background.

 

[Thelastleg]

It's not flipped from my understanding. They were standing to the right side of the bridge from their pespective and based on the trees and platform behind they pick up the left side of the bridge (again from the cameras perspective) in the background.

I would call this a flipped photo as the brown "fanny pack" is now on BG's left hand side and not the right, as in original photos

 

[Yemelyan]

where is the discussion of him contaminating DNA? I didn't raise that just my thought that this killer would have kept close to the investigation and would have been part of the searchers, It just really reminds me of Ian Huntley case where he joined in the search and was interviewed on TV about the girls disappearance, two girls taken and killed in broad day light like here BBC NEWS | UK | Huntley guilty of Soham murders

I think this crime scene is a very complicated one, but will there have been less DNA on the private property land than in the public , presumably? then its the people who went on his land and searched , they could be identified and DNA taken IMO but it didnt happen as far as I know. but anyway i didnt raise DNA at the scene I raised the prospect of a voluntary collection of males DNA who live there.

@Blanche The discussion of him possibly being a searcher and why that would matter is not new. It's been brought up repeatedly, usually coming up every couple of days on the thread.

The usual theory given is this: the killer returned and assisted in the search, therefore though LE have since figured out who he is they cannot arrest him because his searcher status explains the presence of any DNA they found.

If that's not an idea that occurred to you, that's fine, as it's likely an erroneous theory anyway, for all the reasons I listed in my post. It does seem somehow connected to what you were saying, though, since you mention that you think DNA should be taken from the people who were searchers on RL's private land.

Here on the threads, it's common to post an idea and then have others quote your post to comment about something related. I could have easily used your post to bring up statistics on how often killers return to the crime scene, or the psychology of a person who inserts himself into the investigation. Instead I chose to comment on how the killer hypothetically being present in the search would affect DNA collection and interpretation. To be clear: IMO, it doesn't affect it all that much unless he was in the group of searchers who actually found the bodies. And even then, discrepancies between his statement to police (Sgt Riley says statements were taken from all the civilians who were near the victims) and what was found forensically would likely indicate his deception IMO.

And finally, @Blanche, if a DNA sweep of all male Delphi residents is LE's only chance to solve the crime, then the case is really in trouble. Because a tactic like that, which can be easily challenged in court and ruled inadmissible on constitutional grounds (yes, even if you ASK not COMPEL), is truly an investigation's last resort. MOO

 

[Marzipan]

I don't think it is a jacket at all. I think it is blue pull-over windbreaker type thing. Possibly inside out, but not likely.

If the perp reads this site, he is prolly laughing his behind off.

But, everybody just carry on, over and over and over.......

Somebody needs to be brought into the station and shaken down. That is the only way this is going to move forward at this point. I chuckle when folks, rightly, point out that this might put a conviction at risk. Who cares? Get him in the public eye without further delay.

I think the jacket is one thing that has NOT been discussed to death. I’ve only been following for a year and a half, but read all past threads. Plus there are newer people on here. When I first brought it up, someone responded that it didn’t matter since it’s such a common jacket, they could have pulled it from a thrift store and tossed it after, etc. But the jacket continues to be interesting to me anyway. I hadn’t heard the thought of it being a pullover. I can’t decide if it’s inside out or not but I can see the reasons it might be. Maybe the jacket won’t matter in the end, but it’s one of the only things we can all lay eyes on.

 

[TL4S]

I think the jacket is one thing that has NOT been discussed to death. I’ve only been following for a year and a half, but read all past threads. Plus there are newer people on here. When I first brought it up, someone responded that it didn’t matter since it’s such a common jacket, they could have pulled it from a thrift store and tossed it after, etc. But the jacket continues to be interesting to me anyway. I hadn’t heard the thought of it being a pullover. I can’t decide if it’s inside out or not but I can see the reasons it might be. Maybe the jacket won’t matter in the end, but it’s one of the only things we can all lay eyes on.

I am reminded that in this video it is stated that the sheriff said blue jackets had been turned in, but not THE blue jacket. Somehow LE is able to determine this. Maybe they have more than the video to go by in regards to the jacket.

 

[photographer4]

There is so much distortion, and so many variations, of the photograph of this guy that IMO it is difficult to say with any certainty a whole lot beyond that he has on jeans, and a blue jacket.

I'm not trying to resurrect hat/hair/firearm/plastic bag/leather tool bag/rod down the leg, ad infinitum, discussion, as it has beaten about quite intensely over the years.

My intent is to show that what one sees in the photo on the left, pertaining to the aforementioned area, is not the same as what is seen in the photo on the right, in that same area of the jacket.

Lighting, shadow, and a whole host of artifacts and other distortions arise when zooming in.

I myself have asked for divine intervention in catching this killer. I pray the unquestionable evidence comes to light soon.

Really good point about how it looks different in the other view!! Hadn't noticed just how different until you pointed it out! Thanks for the thoughtful post!

 

[photographer4]

I am reminded that in this video it is stated that the sheriff said blue jackets had been turned in, but not THE blue jacket. Somehow LE is able to determine this. Maybe they have more than the video to go by in regards to the jacket.

Super interesting! That might be an indicator that the perp did NOT leave the jacket at the crime scene or along the trails etc following the murders (or it has yet to be found). I wonder how they know they haven't received *the* jacket yet? Forensic testing? If the jacket shed fibers that they recovered at the scene, they may know more about it than I originally thought!
Hairs, Fibers, Crime, and Evidence, Part 2, by Deedrick (Forensic Science Communications, July 2000)

 

[Justice101]

following

 

[photographer4]

It occurs to me that it would be important to know whether LG recorded the video in "selfie" mode (when the camera takes a "mirror image") as well as whether LG had adjusted her phone settings to correct for that. If taken in "selfie" mode and not adjusted to flip the image, the jacket would appear to fasten on the opposite side from that on which it actually does fasten.

The same consideration applies when looking at BG's gait, posture, mannerisms as he walks - we may actually be looking at a "mirror image."

That would seem like something LE might be able to disclose without revealing anything that might compromise an investigation and that might actually assist someone considering submitting a tip about someone they know or are aware of - when we look at the still photos and video of BG, are we looking at a true image or a mirror image?

If this issue has already been addressed, my apologies.

I was going to post the same thing about the potential for the mirror image effect! I wonder if police considered that when the video was released?

LE have actually told us the youtube reenactments that have been posted are inaccurate: "“[The videos] help us know that people don’t know [the true details], because the facts haven’t been released,” Holeman says. “People watch the news and think they are picking up on things, but it’s false. Nothing out there is accurate, which only leads to more false tips.” Why Police Have Not Released Details on the Murders of Libby German and Abby Williams from Delphi, Indiana

So I wonder if police know whether the recording was a mirror image, and if they know whether LG corrected for it herself, or if they did so on finding the phone? I wonder if the public have seen a true recording or a mirror image??

Would it help or hinder police if they released a second version of the photos / videos flipped??

 

[MistyWaters]

Just a comment here, there surely are 'flipped' photos around, here's one.....

Sure anyone can flip a photo. You didn’t include a link.

 

[MistyWaters]

I was going to post the same thing about the potential for the mirror image effect! I wonder if police considered that when the video was released?

LE have actually told us the youtube reenactments that have been posted are inaccurate: "“[The videos] help us know that people don’t know [the true details], because the facts haven’t been released,” Holeman says. “People watch the news and think they are picking up on things, but it’s false. Nothing out there is accurate, which only leads to more false tips.” Why Police Have Not Released Details on the Murders of Libby German and Abby Williams from Delphi, Indiana

So I wonder if police know whether the recording was a mirror image, and if they know whether LG corrected for it herself, or if they did so on finding the phone? I wonder if the public have seen a true recording or a mirror image??

Would it help or hinder police if they released a second version of the photos / videos flipped??

Definitely hinder. The only reason for release of the photo and video by LE was so somebody might recognize the perp and his mannerisms (including the right hand in his pocket) and offer a tip leading to identity.

It’s too bad there’s no “new” news regarding this case, specifically of an arrest.

 

[TL4S]

In that recent HLN show about the Delphi murders, the reporter gets permission from RL to go on his property where the girls were found. She's standing right in the crime scene area talking and pointing to where the creek and bridge are and saying because of the lay of the land the area is sheltered from view.

Posters here who have seen it have also talked about how the crime scene is almost like being in a bowl, making detection from the surrounding land difficult.

From the photos and videos, I do believe a crime could occur out of view in that specific spot. Admittedly, I have not watched every video, interview, or read every article, so it very well might be I've missed something stated by LE in regards to that being the correct location where the bodies were found in this crime.

With that in mind, the only reference to where the bodies were found that I've seen made by LE (not by reporters, RL, family, youtubers, or HLN) is the official ISP.gov website, the article I linked earlier with what Kim Riley said, and the link @cbeagle posted with a statement by LE two years later. All of these LE statements say the same thing, which is that the bodies were found "approximately one-half mile upstream of the [Monan High] bridge" or "about one mile east of the Freedom Bridge." They have neither confirmed nor denied the location south of the cemetery, that I'm aware of, which I think is to be expected if this is crucial information for future prosecution. But as with so many other bits of information released by LE, "approximately one-half mile upstream" is disregarded, almost like a lie or incompetency, in return for something the public has made an assumption about: the crime scene is the taped-off location less than 1/4 mile from the bridge.

I'm not trying to dissuade anyone from their own thoughts here, and I won't continue posting about this, I promise. In the end, the exact location may have no bearing in finding BG, and it might not change anything as for the layout of how the crime took place: how he entered, exited, where he parked, etc. But imo, it's worth considering that he did indeed take them farther upstream, deeper into the woods, putting more distance between them and the trail than what I originally thought. JMO

 

[Charlot123]

@Blanche The discussion of him possibly being a searcher and why that would matter is not new. It's been brought up repeatedly, usually coming up every couple of days on the thread.

The usual theory given is this: the killer returned and assisted in the search, therefore though LE have since figured out who he is they cannot arrest him because his searcher status explains the presence of any DNA they found.

If that's not an idea that occurred to you, that's fine, as it's likely an erroneous theory anyway, for all the reasons I listed in my post. It does seem somehow connected to what you were saying, though, since you mention that you think DNA should be taken from the people who were searchers on RL's private land.

Here on the threads, it's common to post an idea and then have others quote your post to comment about something related. I could have easily used your post to bring up statistics on how often killers return to the crime scene, or the psychology of a person who inserts himself into the investigation. Instead I chose to comment on how the killer hypothetically being present in the search would affect DNA collection and interpretation. To be clear: IMO, it doesn't affect it all that much unless he was in the group of searchers who actually found the bodies. And even then, discrepancies between his statement to police (Sgt Riley says statements were taken from all the civilians who were near the victims) and what was found forensically would likely indicate his deception IMO.

And finally, @Blanche, if a DNA sweep of all male Delphi residents is LE's only chance to solve the crime, then the case is really in trouble. Because a tactic like that, which can be easily challenged in court and ruled inadmissible on constitutional grounds (yes, even if you ASK not COMPEL), is truly an investigation's last resort. MOO

Even with my limited experience, I once saw how, even in very suspicious circumstances, if a person lawyered up very early into the investigation, and refused everything, polygraph, etc. and spoke only in the presence of a lawyer, it became impossible to prove involvement. Probable cause is hard to prove, in the US the law is THE LAW. I imagine the Delphi situation, when so many people needed to be spoken to in the beginning. I would assume many could have lawyered up, and how difficult and time-consuming it must have been. The investigation could have been stalled by some refusing to cooperate, or being marginally cooperative. It doesn’t imply that they were involved; simply, the murders were gruesome, and with this, innocent people were scared to incriminate themselves. DNA sweep is purely voluntary. And putting myself in the shoes of the Delphi parents whose kids were outside on that day, or simply used to frequent MHB, I imagine thinking, “what if it was my kid?”, or even, “what if they think it is him?”... Just imagine how in must have felt. All articles advice us to lawyer up in such cases. And we all say, “a tiny place of 3000”, but maybe, it is not so tiny, when LEOs have to talk to so many people? I understand, there was an army of police and FBI involvement on one side, but probably, an army of lawyers, on the other one. JMO. Tell me if I were wrong.

 

[MistyWaters]

This video of the 3 still photos taken from Libby’s video was put together by GH in May/17. It’s pretty amazing, almost 2 years later LE releases much the same “video” of him walking.

Although what’s beneath his jacket as been suggested to be anything from the leather on the upper portion of hunting pants to a carpenters holster, recently I recall somebody suggesting it looks like the bottom of his brown hoodie. I’d agree, that’s what it appears to be to me as well, along with white hoodie ties. I think nothing about his appearance was attention-getting at all.

“The photo appears to depict a White male wearing blue jeans, a blue coat/jacket, and a hoodie.”
https://www.fbi.gov/wanted/seeking-info/liberty-german/@@download.pdf

 

[photographer4]

From the photos and videos, I do believe a crime could occur out of view in that specific spot. Admittedly, I have not watched every video, interview, or read every article, so it very well might be I've missed something stated by LE in regards to that being the correct location where the bodies were found in this crime.

With that in mind, the only reference to where the bodies were found that I've seen made by LE (not by reporters, RL, family, youtubers, or HLN) is the official ISP.gov website, the article I linked earlier with what Kim Riley said, and the link @cbeagle posted with a statement by LE two years later. All of these LE statements say the same thing, which is that the bodies were found "approximately one-half mile upstream of the [Monan High] bridge" or "about one mile east of the Freedom Bridge." They have neither confirmed nor denied the location south of the cemetery, that I'm aware of, which I think is to be expected if this is crucial information for future prosecution. But as with so many other bits of information released by LE, "approximately one-half mile upstream" is disregarded, almost like a lie or incompetency, in return for something the public has made an assumption about: the crime scene is the taped-off location less than 1/4 mile from the bridge.

I'm not trying to dissuade anyone from their own thoughts here, and I won't continue posting about this, I promise. In the end, the exact location may have no bearing in finding BG, and it might not change anything as for the layout of how the crime took place: how he entered, exited, where he parked, etc. But imo, it's worth considering that he did indeed take them farther upstream, deeper into the woods, putting more distance between them and the trail than what I originally thought. JMO

Wait, wat? .5 miles EAST of Freedom Bridge? Then there is no way they bodies were where I thought they were (at the north side, down the hill from the south end of the bridge).... I'm bad at maps. Can you pls, pls pls show me on a map where YOU think the bodies might have been (a best guess based on your summary above)? Plssss?? Or send me gps coordinates and I'll key them in??

 

[MistyWaters]

Posting this video as well, perhaps of interest for anyone who recently began following this case as it offers a great view of the land including the expanse of the bridge.

 

[MistyWaters]

Wait, wat? .5 miles EAST of Freedom Bridge? Then there is no way they bodies were where I thought they were (at the north side, down the hill from the south end of the bridge).... I'm bad at maps. Can you pls, pls pls show me on a map where YOU think the bodies might have been (a best guess based on your summary above)? Plssss?? Or send me gps coordinates and I'll key them in??

Freedom bridge goes over the highway. You might’ve misread the post you quoted which stated “about one mile east of the Freedom Bridge”, not .5 miles.