Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #131

[Yemelyan]

Even with my limited experience, I once saw how, even in very suspicious circumstances, if a person lawyered up very early into the investigation, and refused everything, polygraph, etc. and spoke only in the presence of a lawyer, it became impossible to prove involvement. Probable cause is hard to prove, in the US the law is THE LAW. I imagine the Delphi situation, when so many people needed to be spoken to in the beginning. I would assume many could have lawyered up, and how difficult and time-consuming it must have been. The investigation could have been stalled by some refusing to cooperate, or being marginally cooperative. It doesn’t imply that they were involved; simply, the murders were gruesome, and with this, innocent people were scared to incriminate themselves. DNA sweep is purely voluntary. And putting myself in the shoes of the Delphi parents whose kids were outside on that day, or simply used to frequent MHB, I imagine thinking, “what if it was my kid?”, or even, “what if they think it is him?”... Just imagine how in must have felt. All articles advice us to lawyer up in such cases. And we all say, “a tiny place of 3000”, but maybe, it is not so tiny, when LEOs have to talk to so many people? I understand, there was an army of police and FBI involvement on one side, but probably, an army of lawyers, on the other one. JMO. Tell me if I were wrong.

Nobody here can quantify or characterize how many people cooperated or didn't cooperate with the Delphi investigation. That's a question for the investigators to answer. We can assume some cooperated fully and some refused and everyone's reasons for their choices were multifactorial.

 

[Blanche]

Posting this video as well, perhaps of interest for anyone who recently began following this case as it offers a great view of the land including the expanse of the bridge.

what a great video , that guy is good! Question, how do we know the girls passed him and then he turned around to follow them and Libby turned to video as suggested in this YT video? could they have been walking to the end of the bridge, stayed there a while then started to head back and he was already coming along the bridge then towards them as they were headed back and Libby took the video just in case?

 

[MistyWaters]

From the photos and videos, I do believe a crime could occur out of view in that specific spot. Admittedly, I have not watched every video, interview, or read every article, so it very well might be I've missed something stated by LE in regards to that being the correct location where the bodies were found in this crime.

With that in mind, the only reference to where the bodies were found that I've seen made by LE (not by reporters, RL, family, youtubers, or HLN) is the official ISP.gov website, the article I linked earlier with what Kim Riley said, and the link @cbeagle posted with a statement by LE two years later. All of these LE statements say the same thing, which is that the bodies were found "approximately one-half mile upstream of the [Monan High] bridge" or "about one mile east of the Freedom Bridge." They have neither confirmed nor denied the location south of the cemetery, that I'm aware of, which I think is to be expected if this is crucial information for future prosecution. But as with so many other bits of information released by LE, "approximately one-half mile upstream" is disregarded, almost like a lie or incompetency, in return for something the public has made an assumption about: the crime scene is the taped-off location less than 1/4 mile from the bridge.

I'm not trying to dissuade anyone from their own thoughts here, and I won't continue posting about this, I promise. In the end, the exact location may have no bearing in finding BG, and it might not change anything as for the layout of how the crime took place: how he entered, exited, where he parked, etc. But imo, it's worth considering that he did indeed take them farther upstream, deeper into the woods, putting more distance between them and the trail than what I originally thought. JMO

I agree, the discovery site was definitely not just south of the cemetery. That would make it closer than 1/2 mile downstream. That urban myth may have been formed because the cemetery has been mentioned as the perps parking spot so often.

In the past others have placed the location where the bodies were found based on that .5 mile distance about somewhere where I’ve drawn the red circle. It’s not immediately on the other side of the sand bar but it is very close, across the creek, from the road that becomes a private drive for the home at the end of it.

 

[MistyWaters]

Double post.

 

[TL4S]

Wait, wat? .5 miles EAST of Freedom Bridge? Then there is no way they bodies were where I thought they were (at the north side, down the hill from the south end of the bridge).... I'm bad at maps. Can you pls, pls pls show me on a map where YOU think the bodies might have been (a best guess based on your summary above)? Plssss?? Or send me gps coordinates and I'll key them in??

@MistyWaters already mentioned that the distance quoted was actually 1 mile east of Freedom Bridge (over the highway), and ISP.gov says "one-half mile upstream from [Monan High] bridge" (over the creek). Here's two maps with approx. distances, which is all we have been given.

 

[MistyWaters]

what a great video , that guy is good! Question, how do we know the girls passed him and then he turned around to follow them and Libby turned to video as suggested in this YT video? could they have been walking to the end of the bridge, stayed there a while then started to head back and he was already coming along the bridge then towards them as they were headed back and Libby took the video just in case?

We don’t know, that’s only his theory.

 

[MistyWaters]

No, they're saying 0.5 miles upstream from Monan High Bridge, or 1 mile east of Freedom Bridge.

@MistyWaters already mentioned that the distance quoted was actually 1 mile east of Freedom Bridge (over the highway), and ISP.gov says "one-half mile upstream from [Monan High] bridge" (over the creek). Here's two maps with approx. distances, which is all we have been given.

Yes, the unanswered question would be how was the .5 mile distance measured? One way, commonly referred to “as the crow flies” ie straight, the other way “upstream” could be the true distance along the creek which takes into account the curvature, the bends in the creek. The two different means of measurements would yield different results.

But you’re right, neither way identifies the location to be due south of the cemetery.

 

[TL4S]

Yes, the unanswered question would be how was the .5 mile distance measured? One way, commonly referred to “as the crow flies” ie straight, the other way “upstream” could be the true distance along the creek which takes into account the curvature, the bends in the creek. The two different means of measurements would yield different results.

But you’re right, neither way identifies the location to be due south of the cemetery.

Yes. I've measured both ways. Here's one that's still less than a half-mile. No matter where from the bridge you meaure, or how you measure, one-half mile puts you much farther east than the presumed location. JMO

 

[photographer4]

I agree, the discovery site was definitely not just south of the cemetery. That would make it closer than 1/2 mile downstream. That urban myth may have been formed because the cemetery has been mentioned as the perps parking spot so often.

In the past others have placed the location where the bodies were found based on that .5 mile distance about somewhere where I’ve drawn the red circle. It’s not immediately on the other side of the sand bar but it is very close to the road that becomes a private drive for the home at the end of it.

View attachment 289213

Thanks for the photo! THat helps! I've looked at google earth for a bit and a bowl was mentioned as the crime scene... could either of these areas be it? The red area shows one possible "bowl" shape, and the blue area shows another possible area closer to the water. The first image with red and blue is from google earth, dated April 11, 2017.

The second image is showing only a blue area closer to the water... also google earth, but from 2012. I kinda wonder if maybe they were in the blue zone? I don't yet know how to measure distance in maps / earth so if I'm way off mathematically, someone pls help a lost soul out!

 

[photographer4]

Yes. I've measured both ways. Here's one that's still less than a half-mile. No matter where from the bridge you meaure, or how you measure, one-half mile puts you much farther east than the presumed location. JMO

I knew I should have read and caught up before posting my crude red and blue lines!

 

[MistyWaters]

Yes. I've measured both ways. Here's one that's still less than a half-mile. No matter where from the bridge you meaure, or how you measure, one-half mile puts you much farther east than the presumed location. JMO

Here’s another map - It took me awhile to find this clickable one which someone else had been posted before, indicating land ownership. But it also clearly indicates indeed RL owns the land along the creek bank below the cemetery however he also owns the land east as well, all along that north side of the curve/swerving of Deer Creek which appears to identify the location somewhere appx 1/2 mile upstream from the high bridge.

Beacon - Carroll County, IN - Map

 

[infinit]

DBM.

 

[stattlich1]

Sure anyone can flip a photo. You didn’t include a link.

It was just a random photo found using google images. The only intent was to show that flipped images are out there, and I simply thought it would be nice for folks to be aware of that fact.

I personally, if wishing to look at photos of BG, go to the ISP: Home website.

I think your photo of the area with the red circle, posted a page or so ago, is probably pretty accurate as to the area of the CS where the bodies were found. I've always thought toward the left of your circle, but it could be anywhere in that general vicinity.

 

[photographer4]

It was just a random photo found using google images. The only intent was to show that flipped images are out there, and I simply thought it would be nice for folks to be aware of that fact.

I personally, if wishing to look at photos of BG, go to the ISP: Home website.

I think your photo of the area with the red circle, posted a page or so ago, is probably pretty accurate as to the area of the CS where the bodies were found. I've always thought toward the left of your circle, but it could be anywhere in that general vicinity.

Thank you for taking the time to reply! I have been thinking the area I circled in red is most likely the right vicinity just based on the idea that they were found in a bowl type shape, and LE (KR) said he could stand about 2/300 ft away and look down on their bodies from a ridge. That area appears to fit that description at a glance, but I'm not local and so I've no idea.

 

[stattlich1]

Thank you for taking the time to reply! I have been thinking the area I circled in red is most likely the right vicinity just based on the idea that they were found in a bowl type shape, and LE (KR) said he could stand about 2/300 ft away and look down on their bodies from a ridge. That area appears to fit that description at a glance, but I'm not local and so I've no idea.

I'm pretty sure the area you circled in red is a depression resulting from historic quarry activity. One of the things I think of when seeking to determine a close location to where the girls were found is to seek out the video that RL shows the reporter the crime scene tape, paying attention to the walk they took to get to that spot.

From my perspective, they are actually standing at the lower right corner of your red circle, and RL is pointing on down to the bottom land near the creek, and that is where the CS tape is seen.

You can actually see the depression of the old quarry in the video, giving perspective as to where they are standing.

Looking at your red circle, I think they are standing near the lower right corner, where one of your red 'dashes' meets up with a blue 'dot'.

There are two videos at this link, watch both of them

https://www.wrtv.com/news/local-new...e-bodies-of-two-missing-teen-girls-were-found

 

[MistyWaters]

Thank you for taking the time to reply! I have been thinking the area I circled in red is most likely the right vicinity just based on the idea that they were found in a bowl type shape, and LE (KR) said he could stand about 2/300 ft away and look down on their bodies from a ridge. That area appears to fit that description at a glance, but I'm not local and so I've no idea.

There’s also topographical maps linked on some long ago thread, indicating broad elevations. For sure, none of the area is flat and we also know the creek is much lower in altitude otherwise such a long bridge over solid land wouldn’t have been required to assist in levelling out the old railway.

Because we don’t have close up views, because google makes everything appear flat, it’d be impossible to recognize any dips or gullies.

Also considering we know the location where the bodies were discovered is on private land, I think LE is prudent to not offer the public a precise location in order to protect landowners on both sides of the creek from curious trespassers. ....much like a lot of information that’s been withheld about this case, we just don’t know. JMO

 

[Spartygirl]

Yes, we do. It was mentioned by LE in one of the interviews.

Well, shoot... I must have missed that one.

 

[sandy_80]

what a great video , that guy is good! Question, how do we know the girls passed him and then he turned around to follow them and Libby turned to video as suggested in this YT video? could they have been walking to the end of the bridge, stayed there a while then started to head back and he was already coming along the bridge then towards them as they were headed back and Libby took the video just in case?

cause since they were already talking about ( that man behind them ) creeping them off..
Police: Delphi murder victims spoke of man behind them in audio played for family | wthr.com

 

[Spartygirl]

Wait, wat? .5 miles EAST of Freedom Bridge? Then there is no way they bodies were where I thought they were (at the north side, down the hill from the south end of the bridge).... I'm bad at maps. Can you pls, pls pls show me on a map where YOU think the bodies might have been (a best guess based on your summary above)? Plssss?? Or send me gps coordinates and I'll key them in??

Just maps from the beginning for a visual of the "lay of the land" so to speak when we were there.

 

[somequestions]

as it is only a small town i understand of just over 2000 people why can they not ask all the males in the town to come forward to have their DNA taken? they think the suspect is local that would at least exclude all the residents or find the culprit? i understand they have got DNA from the scene.

All that talk at the April 2019 press conference was LE guessing he is a local. If I guessed that it was someone from Flora, IN should we try to DNA test every male in Flora, IN? I know others do not agree, but what it comes down to is they found a witness who they think is credible, and then they put all their effort towards that without really considering whether it was good enough information to put out to the public. LE thinks it is a local is a great way to describe it.

LE has no clue who murdered Abigail Williams and Liberty German. That sketch may or may not be a good representation of the man from Liberty German's phone. But in this case I would be VERY surprised if LE ends up being correct. Even if the killer ends up being found in Montana or Canada or somewhere else, I think LE will try to tell everyone that they found information that at one time he used to go bowling or something else in Delphi, IN back in the 90's to try and cover up the obvious error.

Could you imagine if that ends up being the case if it ends up being some older man who looks nothing at all like the second sketch living far from Delphi, IN? Then everyone who has been circulating that college kid second sketch is going to think, "What the heck was I circulating this around for?!"

But this is only if LE is incorrect. It all comes down to what you, the individual, thinks.