Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #131

[Ozoner]

It is amazing to me that even though we complain and beg for more information from LE, that when they actually give us information...the girls were killed where they were found, the girls were victims of opportunity, we have thoroughly searched social media and found nothing, etc...we choose to not believe it.

Good point. Certain people stubbornly refuse to let go of their pet theories even when those theories have been disproved. I guess those people have too much mental energy invested in those theories and just can't handle owning up to their mistakes.

 

[Pyschsandi]

Hmmm, interesting. But they would have found him creepy had he been futher along the bridge, then turned and walked past them then turn and walk towards them again. That would be creepy! If they'd been planning on meeting someone there, don't you think that person would have shown up, or at least let the cops know they were supposed to meet up but didn't? Just playing devils advocate here Unless, the murderer catfished them, posing as a male friend or interest. Something definitely made them uneasy to a point they found him "creepy".
The thing that baffles me, is if BG was planning on just killing them, why didn't he just push one of them over the bridge? Why stalk them the length of the bridge, then down the hill, through the creek and to their final locations where he brutally killed them. It would have been much easier for him to control 1 of the girls, than both I pray every day this guy is caught.
<modsnip>

Thanks Mac1233 your post about the girls thinking this guy is creepy made me start thinking about the drawings of BG. The 2nd drawing is of a good looking young man that a young teenager wouldn’t think was creepy. They would probably be talking about how cute he was or talking about who would say hello to this guy. In the podcast down the hill they keep saying that it’s probably a mixture of the 1st and 2nd drawings. I would think if Libby started to video him that there was something about this guy that was not good looking, but slightly scary or weird.MOO

 

[Pyschsandi]

Hmmm, interesting. But they would have found him creepy had he been futher along the bridge, then turned and walked past them then turn and walk towards them again. That would be creepy! If they'd been planning on meeting someone there, don't you think that person would have shown up, or at least let the cops know they were supposed to meet up but didn't? Just playing devils advocate here Unless, the murderer catfished them, posing as a male friend or interest. Something definitely made them uneasy to a point they found him "creepy".
The thing that baffles me, is if BG was planning on just killing them, why didn't he just push one of them over the bridge? Why stalk them the length of the bridge, then down the hill, through the creek and to their final locations where he brutally killed them. It would have been much easier for him to control 1 of the girls, than both I pray every day this guy is caught.
<modsnip>

Thanks Mac1233 your post about the girls thinking this guy is creepy made me start thinking about the drawings of BG. The 2nd drawing is of a good looking young man that a young teenager wouldn’t think was creepy. They would probably be talking about how cute he was or talking about who would say hello to this guy. In the podcast down the hill they keep saying that it’s probably a mixture of the 1st and 2nd drawings. I would think if Libby started to video him that there was something about this guy that was not good looking, but slightly scary or weird. MOO

 

[Boxer]

Good point. Certain people stubbornly refuse to let go of their pet theories even when those theories have been disproved. I guess those people have too much mental energy invested in those theories and just can't handle owning up to their mistakes.

MOO. I think it was a crime of opportunity. But due to Libby wiping her phone the week before I don't think it can be 100% established there is no online link.

The opportunistic nature of this crime reminds me of shoplifting, a look around shows no one aware and then a theft with sudden impulsive, competent and rapid action.

The first time Libby's phone rang it was not answered, the second attempt went straight to voice mail. I think that ring broke off the killers action.

MOO moments after this last call Libby's father drove by the cemetary to park at the Mears Preserve trail entrance.

MOO the killer left east from the cemertary almost immediately after the father passed by.

 

[MistyWaters]

Good point. Certain people stubbornly refuse to let go of their pet theories even when those theories have been disproved. I guess those people have too much mental energy invested in those theories and just can't handle owning up to their mistakes.

Another possible reason for some not wanting to let go of a pet theory - the theory implicates their pet POI.

 

[Skibunny]

I in no way meant to infer that I thought the girls were the "primping" type, I don't think that at all actually. I only meant that I thought if they had gone there to meet a boy that they would have wanted to make a good impression. You know.. their attire and their hair. I can't speak to Libby's attire or hair, but Abby's own mom said that Abby was wearing an old top of hers. And if you have seen prior pictures of Abby's hair up on her head you can see that in that photo on the bridge her hair was hastily fixed. Teen girls (and everyone else in my opinion), want to make a good first impression when meeting a new person. From everything that I have seen/read, Abby and Libby were the sports types, "primping" wasn't on their list of important things. I hope that helps explain better what I meant.

How do we know that BG isn't creepy on his own when we can't even see his face clearly? Perhaps it was his mannerisms toward them? Something he might have possibly said to them if they had met up with him on the trail before they even got to the bridge? Or perhaps just a 'gut feeling' that we sometimes get about someone/something.

None of us know what actually happened out there that afternoon except for the monster and two deceased young teenagers. LE knows more than us and tells us that it was not a planned meeting that these girls had with the monster. That it was "opportunity." I have no reason not to believe them. Even my prior thought of them(or one of them) possibly being stalked goes right out the window with LE's latest words to the public.

Like someone else has said on here.. and I totally agree.. in the end, we are all just doing our best to try to help.

JMO

You have to go look up "messy bun". It is a very deliberate hairstyle for casual sporty types, not as easy to create as one might imagine lol. Often seen in high-school and above around my town. Much more work than a plain ponytail. JMO . This case just breaks my heart, these girls were just on the cusp of high-school.

 

[Pyschsandi]

Another possible reason for some not wanting to let go of a pet theory - the theory implicates their pet POI.

I think everyone’s theories can contribute to this case of unknowns. Even if the theory is so far out there, something may spark a really good idea of what happened. (Except for the implication of a pet doing this). Keeping this case in everyone’s mind is what is important. Let’s all keep talking about what theory we believe may be what happened and someone close to BG may see it and find something relevant and connect this case to them.

 

[Inthedetails]

deleted. Got snarky. Sorry.

 

[Nancy1954]

You have to go look up "messy bun". It is a very deliberate hairstyle for casual sporty types, not as easy to create as one might imagine lol. Often seen in high-school and above around my town. Much more work than a plain ponytail. JMO . This case just breaks my heart, these girls were just on the cusp of high-school.

"Messy bun" might be a "very deliberate hairstyle for casual sporty types" but there is another picture of Abby playing softball with her grandfather with a very 'put together' bun on top of her head. It is easy enough to find.. compare it with the picture on the bridge. I rather doubt that Abby took the time that morning to "create" a hairstyle that "wasn't as easy to create as one might imagine" after staying up most of the night talking with Libby. I was just trying to suggest that by the way that Abby presented herself on the bridge she wasn't looking/expecting to meet a boy. That is all.

JMO

 

[Inthedetails]

.

 

[MistyWaters]

"Messy bun" might be a "very deliberate hairstyle for casual sporty types" but there is another picture of Abby playing softball with her grandfather with a very 'put together' bun on top of her head. It is easy enough to find.. compare it with the picture on the bridge. I rather doubt that Abby took the time that morning to "create" a hairstyle that "wasn't as easy to create as one might imagine" after staying up most of the night talking with Libby. I was just trying to suggest that by the way that Abby presented herself on the bridge she wasn't looking/expecting to meet a boy. That is all.

JMO

Unfortunately an early Dr Phil show which the family and DC is unavailable online. But in agreement with what you’ve written, I distinctly recall Abby’s mom adamantly objecting to the any suggestion Abby went to the bridge to meet a boy specifically because of how she was dressed and her overall appearance in the bridge photo. A mother surely knows a daughter best.

 

[Justice101]

book mark

 

[JnRyan]

MOO. I think it was a crime of opportunity. But due to Libby wiping her phone the week before I don't think it can be 100% established there is no online link.

The opportunistic nature of this crime reminds me of shoplifting, a look around shows no one aware and then a theft with sudden impulsive, competent and rapid action.

The first time Libby's phone rang it was not answered, the second attempt went straight to voice mail. I think that ring broke off the killers action.

MOO moments after this last call Libby's father drove by the cemetary to park at the Mears Preserve trail entrance.

MOO the killer left east from the cemertary almost immediately after the father passed by.

The example of the shoplifter as an opportunistic criminal is a good one. Taking it further – are they a repeat offender or did they do it one time to see if they could get away with it?

I wonder if this killer is a repeat offender as a killer (serial killer) or it was a one time thing. (Regardless of whether or not this person has killed before or since, I do believe they’ve committed crimes against persons prior to this. He just didn’t kill the victim(s).)

Regarding a serial killer, 1st Sgt Holeman of the ISP has stated they’ve looked at the Evansdale murders in IA. And I have no doubt LE has used ViCAP (Violent Criminal Apprehension Program) for similar crimes. The problem with the FBI’s ViCAP is that is that it is not mandatory for any LE agency to enter crimes and not all LE agencies use it. Should a crime with similar MO or signatures have been committed elsewhere such as Chicago, Louisville, or Cleveland, for example, and not entered in ViCAP it won’t show in a search.

This killer could have had a different victim type before – or since – such as a younger child or older teenager or even an adult. The environment could be different. IOW, he abducted his victims while they were jogging on an isolated road or he went after homeless or runaways. On that particular day in 2017 he happens to be on a trail he may be familiar with from sometime in his past. He sees two girls with no adults around. He checks the area for potential witnesses and decides to go after victims in a new environment that has presented him with an opportunity.

 

[Yemelyan]

I think everyone’s theories can contribute to this case of unknowns. Even if the theory is so far out there, something may spark a really good idea of what happened. (Except for the implication of a pet doing this). Keeping this case in everyone’s mind is what is important. Let’s all keep talking about what theory we believe may be what happened and someone close to BG may see it and find something relevant and connect this case to them.

Everyone's theories that are based on known, demonstrable facts can absolutely contribute to the overall body of knowledge, awareness and possibilities in this case. But, this is a fact-based forum and theories that are based on incorrect information, improper understanding of facts, or rumor should be called out as such and the information corrected. JMO

I think the frustration arises when LE appears to confirm certain facts/rumors but posters disregard those statements or twist them in order to fit pet theories.

For example, we have TL confirming that based on the facts that are known to him that the girls were killed where they were found. (Carroll County Comet Q&A). Yet I guarantee you that in a few days or weeks someone will re-introduce the topic of whether they were killed in a shack or killed somewhere else and brought back in the dead of night, and so forth.

 

[St. Anthony2017]

I have never thought of it this way. I don’t think, who ordered the killings? It is just what I see on that video. When I look at him walking down that bridge, without any “editing” nor frames, I see two things. One, that he is not young. Probably, over 40, or a well-lived 40. And two, this is how an “ordered” killer would look like to me. (He can be whatever by profession. Chances are, I am totally wrong). But I saw it the first time I looked at the video, and I still see it now. Maybe it is his level of “hyperfocusing” that creates such an impression, that it is a job for him. Strictly MOO.

If it’s a job for him he is probably his own boss and gets paid by reliving his evil deeds until he strikes again. I agree that he looks “all business” as he approaches them. He will show them who is boss. It’s so scary and sad!

 

[Yemelyan]

The example of the shoplifter as an opportunistic criminal is a good one. Taking it further – are they a repeat offender or did they do it one time to see if they could get away with it?

I wonder if this killer is a repeat offender as a killer (serial killer) or it was a one time thing. (Regardless of whether or not this person has killed before or since, I do believe they’ve committed crimes against persons prior to this. He just didn’t kill the victim(s).)

Snipped and bolded by me....

I think there is also the possibility that there is a significant category of offenders who murder once and then they are done, and I think genetic genealogy solves are going to reveal a lot more of these than expected. I'm thinking of April Tinsley's killer. He said he went out looking for victims many times in the years afterwards but never had the same confluence of luck, opportunity, and confidence to pull an abduction off again (of course he also did other crimes that kept his sick fantasies going). So for some murderers, the one act sustains their fantasy life for a very long time. Perhaps for others, the fear of getting caught interrupts the process by which they might have escalated (this was the theory of the criminologist who appeared with the DTH reporters on the HLN Extra about the Delphi case). I think it's also possible that for some offenders the murder didn't meet the expectation for satisfaction that they envisioned - maybe they were interrupted, maybe the victim fought too much, etc.

 

[St. Anthony2017]

I agree.

That is why all of the POIs need to be looked at from that perspective. Did he move from the area? Does he put weird posts or photos on his social media that may have double meanings? What have the POIs been doing for the last 4 years? Do they talk about the murders or completely ignore the fact that they helped in the search? Tobe said his list is down to 5 or 6 so a deep dive shouldn’t be that hard.

 

[St. Anthony2017]

Was thinking along the same line: this could be as simple as the girls may have been talking during the night or early morning with friends and may have mentioned a desire to go to trail / bridge the following day. The plan may have seemed spontaneous to adults in their lives because the girls may not have asked about it until they saw an opportunity to get a drive there when Kelsi was heading out to meet her BF. Up til then, the girls may have not made serious plans to go as they didn't think they'd get a drive there or back. Once the plan became solidified, it would have taken but a moment to post it, or put out a text / group chat to tell others where they could be found if anyone wanted to join them. Could be someone saw it as a pop up text on a device, or saw the bridge pic (was saved as a screen shot by a friend of the girls after it was posted to SnapChat) and just suddenly decided to go there and stalk them and kill them.

Maybe the killer also saw that their friends could not make it that day so he knew it would just be the two of them.

 

[TL4S]

IMO, LE has been so sparse with what details they release, saying it is to preserve the integrity of the case, that it doesn't make sense then for them to jeopardize the integrity of the case by lying about those very details.

I think LE is vague where necessary, and maybe those comments can be interpreted various ways. But other details have been specific and repeated. Assuming they make these comments based on investigative findings, I take them at face value. These are really the only reliable facts we have in this case. JMO

 

[Boxer]

Snipped and bolded by me....

I think there is also the possibility that there is a significant category of offenders who murder once and then they are done, and I think genetic genealogy solves are going to reveal a lot more of these than expected. I'm thinking of April Tinsley's killer. He said he went out looking for victims many times in the years afterwards but never had the same confluence of luck, opportunity, and confidence to pull an abduction off again (of course he also did other crimes that kept his sick fantasies going). So for some murderers, the one act sustains their fantasy life for a very long time. Perhaps for others, the fear of getting caught interrupts the process by which they might have escalated (this was the theory of the criminologist who appeared with the DTH reporters on the HLN Extra about the Delphi case). I think it's also possible that for some offenders the murder didn't meet the expectation for satisfaction that they envisioned - maybe they were interrupted, maybe the victim fought too much, etc.

knows a daughter best.[/QUOTE]
Agree. Many apparently kill once, realize they were lucky and focus on hiding their crime from then on.