Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #15

[MistyWaters]

My apologies, I should have looked at that comparison deeper. thank you for the accurate update.

I think the topic of the Coroners/Medical Examiners in Canada is a topic well worth discussing as it’s often misunderstood.

In the US, Coroners, an elected role, interface with the public far more than here in Canada. In both counties it’s necessary for there to be a close working relationship during homicide investigations but in Canada it’s LE’s role to be the public interface. We’d never see a Coroner announcing the results of a suspicious death investigation here, nor autopsy results. Maybe for that reason the media seldom mentions the involvement of the Coroner’s Office at all, almost as if it doesn’t exist, leading one to draw the possible conclusion LE is totally responsible from beginning to end.

ETA - Regarding the Sherman homicides, KD has led the public to believe TPS was totally responsible for determining whether or not homicides occurred, deciding it must’ve been after interviewing the family’s pathologist. He completely removed the Coroners Office from any involvement in the death investigation whatsoever. Why he’d do that I don’t know other than it makes for a simple yet dramatic, sensationalistic storyline including his taking of credit for the breaking news.

 

[dotr]

Just noting..
https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/motherisk-experts-forensic-testimony-1.3433881
Feb 08, 2016

• ''Both Smith and Koren were charismatic physicians whose charisma seemed to overshadow the fact that they were out of their depth when it came to doing forensic work, work that in both cases contributed to parents losing custody of their children or losing their own freedom and serving jail time.
• Officials ignored warning signs about both men. Early in Smith's career, a judge in a murder trial admonished him for his poor work and faulty autopsy conclusions. In Koren's case, he had a public spat with his colleagues over research into an experimental drug in the 1990s, sent them nasty, anonymous letters, then lied about it, resulting in a one-week suspension. Both Smith and Koren nevertheless went on to become the go-to forensics experts on certain types of cases.
• In both instances, the hospital that housed their labs was found to have exercised scant oversight to ensure the labs were run by qualified experts and met international standards for forensics.''

Sick Kids doctor breaks his silence
January 7, 2000
''Apotex threatened Dr. Olivieri with legal action. She published her findings anyway, but she went on to wage a very public battle with the Hospital for Sick Children and the University of Toronto, who she said never properly supported her, and also with Dr. Koren.''

 

[MistyWaters]

Just noting..
https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/motherisk-experts-forensic-testimony-1.3433881
Feb 08, 2016

• ''Both Smith and Koren were charismatic physicians whose charisma seemed to overshadow the fact that they were out of their depth when it came to doing forensic work, work that in both cases contributed to parents losing custody of their children or losing their own freedom and serving jail time.
• Officials ignored warning signs about both men. Early in Smith's career, a judge in a murder trial admonished him for his poor work and faulty autopsy conclusions. In Koren's case, he had a public spat with his colleagues over research into an experimental drug in the 1990s, sent them nasty, anonymous letters, then lied about it, resulting in a one-week suspension. Both Smith and Koren nevertheless went on to become the go-to forensics experts on certain types of cases.
• In both instances, the hospital that housed their labs was found to have exercised scant oversight to ensure the labs were run by qualified experts and met international standards for forensics.''

Sick Kids doctor breaks his silence
January 7, 2000
''Apotex threatened Dr. Olivieri with legal action. She published her findings anyway, but she went on to wage a very public battle with the Hospital for Sick Children and the University of Toronto, who she said never properly supported her, and also with Dr. Koren.''

Dr Chiasson was the Chief Forensic Pathologist at the time of the Smith fiasco. Ontario has a history of autopsy mistakes, that’s for sure. This is also the reason I think expert, specialized and unbiased opinion regarding the Sherman homicides was obtained from outside the country by the Coroner’s Office and that’s part of the reason why the official “targeted double homicide” wasn’t announced earlier. I’m quite certain Canada does not have a leading expert in staged deaths pertaining to “ligature neck compression” and the Prosecution surely wouldn’t want to lose a bungled trial of one of Canada’s most wealthiest citizens for that reason.

“The wheels of justice grind slowly. Just last Jan. 25, fully 21 months after Smith testified, the Crown withdrew its murder charge against Louise Reynolds. Smith had amended his earlier opinion after attending a second autopsy on July 13, 1999, conducted on Sharon’s skeletal remains by Ontario’s chief forensic pathologist, Dr. David Chiasson. There, Chiasson concluded that some of the marks were dog bites. Smith, too, came to that point of view. “After the second autopsy,” Cairns told Macleans, “he did not disagree that many of the wounds were dog bites.” The prosecution then sent Sharon’s bones to University of Tennessee forensic anthropologist Steven Symes, the leading North American expert in tool-mark evidence. Symes’s reported conclusion: there were no marks of any sharp instrument other than Smiths scalpel blade during the original autopsy...”
DEAD WRONG | Maclean's | May 14, 2001

 

[MistyWaters]

In 2018 an Ontario review was undertaken to determine why several undetected homicides weren’t deemed to be have been criminally suspicious when the crime scene was processed.

Contrary to that, we do know the Sherman deaths were announced by LE to have been “suspicious” from the time of discovery.

Ontario chief coroner reviewing ‘concealed homicides’
“Ontario's chief coroner has launched a review into what investigators call "concealed homicides" — deaths going back decades that were initially written off as natural, accidental, suicidal or undetermined that were later revealed to be criminally suspicious.....

.....And it will not probe the December 2017 murders of billionaires Barry and Honey Sherman, a Toronto police investigation that has been criticized for its apparent early focus on a theory of murder-suicide, rather than double homicide....”

 

[Satchie]

I believe some provinces may have individuals who are not actually medical doctors take on the role of coroner. They are never elected officials. But here in Ontario coroners are definitely medical doctors. I should know. I worked in the Forensic Science building on Grosvenor St for 15 years.

Yes, in BC Larry Campbell (inspiration for DaVinci's Inquest) wasn't a medico, he was former LE. He became Chief Coroner.

 

[al66pine]

Honey's Will?
@MistyWaters. Thanks for post and Dec 15, 2019 link.*
Q: Is it common in Ontario for atty/law firm to hold original will (w the various execution formalities), on the client-testator's behalf, until after testator's death, to be filed in probate court? W copy provided to client?
If that happened w Honey's will, imo not unexpected that family & friends might not find the original will.
But may be unusual not to find a copy of the will, w notation about original being held at atty's office.
Since ^ Dec 2019 article, the original may have been submitted for probate, either by law firm or family.

Q: W some or all the probate filings sealed, do we know. whether her will has been submitted?

___________________________________

Either Honey didn’t have a Will or she had a Will.
Source reveals Honey Sherman updated her will shortly before billionaire couple's murder - NEWS 1130

From link:
"According to the Toronto Star, a confidant of Honey told police detectives that Honey had made changes to her will three weeks before her and her husband were murdered.
"Friends and family were unable to find a will belonging to Honey after the couple were found dead in their home in December 2017." bbm

 

[JoyMBee]

Honey's Will?
@MistyWaters. Thanks for post and Dec 15, 2019 link.*
Q: Is it common in Ontario for atty/law firm to hold original will (w the various execution formalities), on the client-testator's behalf, until after testator's death, to be filed in probate court? W copy provided to client?
If that happened w Honey's will, imo not unexpected that family & friends might not find the original will.
But may be unusual not to find a copy of the will, w notation about original being held at atty's office.
Since ^ Dec 2019 article, the original may have been submitted for probate, either by law firm or family.

Q: W some or all the probate filings sealed, do we know. whether her will has been submitted?

___________________________________

From link:
"According to the Toronto Star, a confidant of Honey told police detectives that Honey had made changes to her will three weeks before her and her husband were murdered.
"Friends and family were unable to find a will belonging to Honey after the couple were found dead in their home in December 2017." bbm

We went through the process of updating our wills a few months ago. At the signing, there was the clause about revoking any previous wills etc. We were also told the original copies would be kept at the Lawyer's office. After our passing, our Executor would have to show up with ID and a copy of our death certificates for the original to be released. We were given copies to take home with us. The original will is needed to start the proceedings is what I understood.

 

[ldlager]

We went through the process of updating our wills a few months ago. At the signing, there was the clause about revoking any previous wills etc. We were also told the original copies would be kept at the Lawyer's office. After our passing, our Executor would have to show up with ID and a copy of our death certificates for the original to be released. We were given copies to take home with us. The original will is needed to start the proceedings is what I understood.

In Ontario, if a lawyer knows a person is deceased, and if an executor doesn't show up at the lawyers to collect the original will, does the lawyer have a legal obligation to contact the executor or somehow submit the Will to the court/equivalent?

 

[ldlager]

In Ontario, if a lawyer knows a person is deceased, and if an executor doesn't show up at the lawyers to collect the original will, does the lawyer have a legal obligation to contact the executor or somehow submit the Will to the court/equivalent?

I suspect not, as the lawyer wouldn’t know if that was your latest will?

 

[MistyWaters]

I think we don’t know what’s contained within those estate files because they’re still sealed....KDs SCC appeal, decision still pending. The wills or no wills was reported in an earlier sequel to the saga iirc, when the Judge sealed the file. JMO

“The estate files dealing with the distribution of assets after death, one for Barry Sherman, listed under his formal name, Bernard, and one for his wife Honey Sherman, showing she is also known as Anna Debora, are filed in Ontario court but access to the contents are blocked from public view.

The files were created in June after lawyers representing the trustees of the estate sought an oral hearing before a judge rather than simply filing material over the counter at a courthouse, as is usually the case.

Dunphy was the judge hearing their petition and he then hand-wrote a short judicial “protective order” sealing the material on June 26, saying the files involve “confidential material of potential relevance to the police investigation.”....”
Judge seals estate files of murder victims Barry and Honey Sherman to protect heirs | National Post

 

[Bobbi Pearl]

I think we don’t know what’s contained within those estate files because they’re still sealed....KDs SCC appeal, decision still pending. The wills or no wills was reported in an earlier sequel to the saga iirc, when the Judge sealed the file. JMO

“The estate files dealing with the distribution of assets after death, one for Barry Sherman, listed under his formal name, Bernard, and one for his wife Honey Sherman, showing she is also known as Anna Debora, are filed in Ontario court but access to the contents are blocked from public view.

The files were created in June after lawyers representing the trustees of the estate sought an oral hearing before a judge rather than simply filing material over the counter at a courthouse, as is usually the case.

Dunphy was the judge hearing their petition and he then hand-wrote a short judicial “protective order” sealing the material on June 26, saying the files involve “confidential material of potential relevance to the police investigation.”....”
Judge seals estate files of murder victims Barry and Honey Sherman to protect heirs | National Post

So true Honey's will would be in her legal name!

4 thoughts come to mind.

1. Maybe the media cannot find anyone to confirm they have a will for HS so they make a headline that it is missing.
2. The perp(s) removed her copy of her will, in case it could be determined she passed before Barry and it would be now Honey's executor in charge, not Barry's.
3. Maybe Honey removed people from her will as she added a grandson
4. You would hope and think that if a lawyer had drawn up a will 3 weeks before a murder that has been highly reported on that it is rumored she had one but it could not be found, that they would contact a family member, the police or the investigation teams. Not to mention the cosigner of her will should have the notion to contact someone. - Maybe that is what the article was for, to get them to call someone?

oops another thought came to mind while typing #4:
Maybe KD is working more closely with the police than the public is to know, maybe they work with him on what to put out to the public, either to keep us distracted or to see what actions/recations the news unleashes on people of interest.

Bobbi Pearl

 

[ldlager]

So true Honey's will would be in her legal name!

4 thoughts come to mind.

1. Maybe the media cannot find anyone to confirm they have a will for HS so they make a headline that it is missing.
2. The perp(s) removed her copy of her will, in case it could be determined she passed before Barry and it would be now Honey's executor in charge, not Barry's.
3. Maybe Honey removed people from her will as she added a grandson
4. You would hope and think that if a lawyer had drawn up a will 3 weeks before a murder that has been highly reported on that it is rumored she had one but it could not be found, that they would contact a family member, the police or the investigation teams. Not to mention the cosigner of her will should have the notion to contact someone. - Maybe that is what the article was for, to get them to call someone?

oops another thought came to mind while typing #4:
Maybe KD is working more closely with the police than the public is to know, maybe they work with him on what to put out to the public, either to keep us distracted or to see what actions/recations the news unleashes on people of interest.

Bobbi Pearl

re #2- the perps could have stolen the HS will to ensure that the estate proceeds did NOT go to HS beneficiaries as set out in her will.

 

[musicaljoke]

So true Honey's will would be in her legal name!

4 thoughts come to mind.

1. Maybe the media cannot find anyone to confirm they have a will for HS so they make a headline that it is missing.
2. The perp(s) removed her copy of her will, in case it could be determined she passed before Barry and it would be now Honey's executor in charge, not Barry's.
3. Maybe Honey removed people from her will as she added a grandson
4. You would hope and think that if a lawyer had drawn up a will 3 weeks before a murder that has been highly reported on that it is rumored she had one but it could not be found, that they would contact a family member, the police or the investigation teams. Not to mention the cosigner of her will should have the notion to contact someone. - Maybe that is what the article was for, to get them to call someone?

oops another thought came to mind while typing #4:
Maybe KD is working more closely with the police than the public is to know, maybe they work with him on what to put out to the public, either to keep us distracted or to see what actions/recations the news unleashes on people of interest.

Bobbi Pearl

It's common for wills to be kept with the lawyer, especially complex ones that likely involve trusts and corps etc.

 

[MistyWaters]

So true Honey's will would be in her legal name!

4 thoughts come to mind.

1. Maybe the media cannot find anyone to confirm they have a will for HS so they make a headline that it is missing.
2. The perp(s) removed her copy of her will, in case it could be determined she passed before Barry and it would be now Honey's executor in charge, not Barry's.
3. Maybe Honey removed people from her will as she added a grandson
4. You would hope and think that if a lawyer had drawn up a will 3 weeks before a murder that has been highly reported on that it is rumored she had one but it could not be found, that they would contact a family member, the police or the investigation teams. Not to mention the cosigner of her will should have the notion to contact someone. - Maybe that is what the article was for, to get them to call someone?

oops another thought came to mind while typing #4:
Maybe KD is working more closely with the police than the public is to know, maybe they work with him on what to put out to the public, either to keep us distracted or to see what actions/recations the news unleashes on people of interest.

Bobbi Pearl

Over the past three and more years there’s been a headline over virtually everything imaginable to might capture a reader’s attention!

Virtually all Wills contain a survivorship clause about who gets the estate if the spouse dies within a certain number of days, typically 30. Even in the unlikely event the Sherman Wills didn’t, it’s highly doubtful it could ever be proven Barry died first, Honey becoming the beneficiary of his estate for a very limited amount of time until she was murdered as well.

So IMO unless Honey already held huge wealth in her name prior to Dec 13, 2017 - which would also contradict several of KDs stories - I can’t see Honey’s Will having any great significance. Other than the land the new home was to be built on, what other assets were in her name?

For that reason I’m not really sure why if Honey had a Will or if it was found or changed is often a topic of interest here. Maybe someone might spell the reason out for me.

 

[ldlager]

Over the past three and more years there’s been a headline over virtually everything imaginable to might capture a reader’s attention!

Virtually all Wills contain a survivorship clause about who gets the estate if the spouse dies within a certain number of days, typically 30. Even in the unlikely event the Sherman Wills didn’t, it’s highly doubtful it could ever be proven Barry died first, Honey becoming the beneficiary of his estate for a very limited amount of time until she was murdered as well.

So IMO unless Honey already held huge wealth in her name prior to Dec 13, 2017 - which would also contradict several of KDs stories - I can’t see Honey’s Will having any great significance. Other than the land the new home was to be built on, what other assets were in her name?

For that reason I’m not really sure why if Honey had a Will or if it was found or changed is often a topic of interest here. Maybe someone might spell the reason out for me.

if she had a will that cannot be found because it was removed from the house I think that LE would be interested in knowing that. After all, the killer may well not have known about the intricacies of wills in ontario and survivorship clauses. Perhaps the killer had recently been removed from HS will- who was removed or reduced in benefit would be of interest to LE IMO. If the will was removed from the house , why. That could provide LE with information about who the potential murderer was. Moo

 

[MistyWaters]

if she had a will that cannot be found because it was removed from the house I think that LE would be interested in knowing that. After all, the killer may well not have known about the intricacies of wills in ontario and survivorship clauses. Perhaps the killer had recently been removed from HS will- who was removed or reduced in benefit would be of interest to LE IMO. If the will was removed from the house , why. That could provide LE with information about who the potential murderer was. Moo

Okay but what would be the point of murdering both of them if the motive involved Honey’s Estate, presumably minuscule compared to her husbands wealth? And if Honey was murdered because of somebody she removed from her presumably small estate, the killer could’ve been long gone by the time Barry got home.

I must be missing something...wasn’t it Barry with the billion plus wealth, Honey the one who was essentially destitute other than meagre handouts from her husband for household expenses? The storyline has more than a few hiccups IMO

 

[ldlager]

Okay but what would be the point of murdering both of them if the motive involved Honey’s Estate, presumably minuscule compared to her husbands wealth? And if Honey was murdered because of somebody she removed from her presumably small estate, the killer could’ve been long gone by the time Barry got home.

I must be missing something...wasn’t it Barry with the billion plus wealth, Honey the one who was essentially destitute other than meagre handouts from her husband for household expenses? The storyline has more than a few hiccups IMO

Let’s assume for this discussion that the killer was not or was no longer a beneficiary in the HS will, and he/she feared or was informed that BS was going to rewrite his will to leave most of his wealth to charity, or to HS.

The death of HS would not result in any inheritance by the killer from her estate, so murdering just HS would not financially benefit the killer, and would put him/her at risk of most of BS wealth going to charities when he passed away down the road. Just murdering BS would, based on the killers belief, result in most his wealth going to charity, or HS, but in any event not the killer.

IMO that could be why both BS and HS were murdered.

 

[nuff]

IMO that could be why both BS and HS were murdered.

As part of the motive, agreed, but given the manner of death and staging, anger and hatred toward both as well. This was not purely financial.

 

[ldlager]

As part of the motive, agreed, but given the manner of death and staging, anger and hatred toward both as well. This was not purely financial.

Given what has been reported over many years about the type of people the Sherman’s were, and how so many viewed them in such a positive light, who could have had so much anger and hatred towards them that they would kill them both? And why both of them, in their home? The list would have to be fairly short I would think.

 

[deugirtni]

I'm not sure anyone here can speak to this half-intelligently, but here is my question. The couple had been married for.. what? 45 years or something? And when they became married, they were of modest means. They had to take out loans from their family to get into business. Due to Barry's intelligence, risk-taking, hard work, whatever, he was able to grow that business and become a multi-billionaire.

In Canada we have family laws which, if I'm not mistaken, entitle the spouse to half of everything that grew during the marriage together.. so therefore, even though it may have been 'Barry's business', and it was Barry who worked in the business day-to-day, Honey is deemed to have contributed as well, and as far as I understand it, she would be entitled to half of everything.. after taxes and such. If H had divorced B, wouldn't B have had to cough up piles and piles of money to give her her 'half'? If most of the wealth was in Apo, and the value was so high, I'm assuming B would've been in a position where he would have to sell at least parts of it, in order to pay her out, if she demanded the monies, rather than the 'ownership'?

If someone is wealthy before they marry, it is perhaps common to have a prenup signed so that anything owned before the marriage, is not to be divided in a divorce, but everything gained after the marriage would be subject to sharing. That doesn't appear to have been the situation with B and H, as both of them were of relatively the same financial status at the time of marriage and neither seem to have come from wealthy parents themselves.

So what would happen if only H had been murdered? And in her Will, she left everything she owned to charity and her sibling? On paper, it might appear she only perhaps owned the property where their new home was being built, possibly she had some life insurance and a bit of cash, maybe a condo or two. In reality according to family law however, she owned half of everything. So how would her estate be distributed to her inheritors? Wouldn't that mean things would need to be sold in order to get the monies out, so they could be distributed as per her Will? And B would be left with his entire half, which is no small amount, but perhaps not enough to keep Apo going?

So if only H had been killed and the motive was to collect an inheritance, the starting point would be only half of their fortune, and then divided amongst whomever she bequeathed her wealth to? And same for if only B had been killed.

What if B had been killed for same reason, and he had only left monies for H to be looked after, with the rest going to his 4 children? What if H had an issue with that, and instead, wanted the cash? Couldn't she contest the Will to get 'her half' of the Sherman wealth? IF the couple were killed for their wealth, which seems it could be likely considering the substantial size of it, it only makes sense to me that both of them would need to go, in order to avoid all of that mess if only one were to die. It would take years to sort out in court, otherwise, imho.

Note that of course I am not versed in corporate law, taxation and loopholes for the wealthy, wealth, trust funds, and etc., nor an expert in family law, but I imagine that if during the course of the couple's 45 year marriage, B had been trying to work things so that H would be entitled to little, either if she divorced him, or if he or she died, H may have had an issue with that and took steps to stop it from happening, or.. perhaps that is what our laws are for, to stop that type of thing from happening even if the spouse is completely clueless about it?