PA PA - Ray Gricar, 59, former district attorney, Bellefonte, 15 Apr 2005 - #17

[minazoe]

ok I listened to part one..wow..now I have a vision of Ray following some kind of instructions.

they took him from the car.

okay, down the rabbit hole I go!

mOO

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I will let her try her convince me. So far, no.

Remember that we do have a photo of RFG's desk calendar.

 

[Ozoner]

I will let her try her convince me. So far, no.

Remember that we do have a photo of RFG's desk calendar.

Who replaced Gricar as DA when he disappeared? Is there a thought that the new DA might have been in the pocket of the people involved in the large drug bust that had occured a few weeks prior to Ray's disappearance?

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Who replaced Gricar as DA when he disappeared? Is there a thought that the new DA might have been in the pocket of the people involved in the large drug bust that had occured a few weeks prior to Ray's disappearance?

The Acting DA was Mark Smith, who was the 1st Assistant DA. He filled in from April 2005, until the newly elected DA took office. That was Michael Madera, who was elected in November. As both the primary and general elections were contested, on 4/15/05 nobody could be sure who this was going to be.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Knight's website is up. Episodes - Final Argument Podcast

There is a paywall but I paid. I just read the not that PEF left for RFG on the morning of 4/15/05 and pictures of several months worth of RFG's desk calendars. WOW!

 

[minazoe]

the note? omigod.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

the note? omigod.

Yes, in PEF's cursive on cute little note pads and a drawn heart. It looks like a treasure trove will be released.

 

[SeekingJana]

ok I listened to part one..wow..now I have a vision of Ray following some kind of instructions.

they took him from the car.

okay, down the rabbit hole I go!

mOO

I just wanted to say that personal protection classes and all sorts of LE instructions say:

Rule #1: DO NOT let anyone remove you from your house, room, car, taxi ( or horse, in the case of Texans like me).

Stand your ground on or in your property and you have a much greater chance of surviving. If I've known about this for years, wouldn't Ray? Die resisting, die fighting, no matter what. The crime scene will show signs of a struggle if you dig your keys into your leather steering wheel, if you kick off a shoe, of you pull the perp's hair.

They may decide you're too much trouble to deal with, even ( " The Ransom Of Red Chief" comes to mind.)

If any of us finds ourselves in a situation where someone is trying to take us away, die resisting. Because you WILL die shortly down the road on THEIR terms if you don't leave a crime scene with hints that you didn't go willingly. Pulled hair, blood, and skin cells will help LE find the killer, and Ray knew this as well as he knew his name.

Control your destiny. No adults are kidnapped, then let go for good behavior. They're killed.

I haven't listened to the podcast, not sure I'm up to it, actually, but I firmly believe Ray would have kicked and screamed, fought and made his own evidence in his car, or other places.

Since none has been found, I do not believe there was an immaculate kidnapping and murder in Lewisburg. Not for one minute.

 

[minazoe]

I think they got him at that car..and while I thoroughly prescribe to the fight like hell theory,
Not all fights are successful, and if more than two people are involved and guns are involved
it may quickly become " game over. "

or...before the car was moved, as I personally have never trusted that the store owner saw Ray himself move the mini..

is money involved? why didn't Ray have any money? I wonder what his ex might say about
Ray's money habits. Has she commented on that in the past?

I haven't watched the other thing yet.

I cant wait to see this all unfold.

mOO

 

[Kittybunny]

the note? omigod.

Pleeeeeeease don't leave us in suspense! What'd it say?!?!?!

 

[Kittybunny]

I remember hearing the theories on Rays case, when I attended the Sheriffs academy at Penn State, some of the investigators were our instructors, I believe there were originally 3 theories that they were putting forth.

-Suicide
-He was murdered
-He left to start a new life somewhere possibly in Europe or something

Later theorists put something out there about his disappearance possibly having something to do with Sandusky etc.. but theres no evidence of that anywhere that i know of

Very excited to have your thoughts and insights on this thread. Agree with you on Sandusky, I don't think it had anything to do with it. This is one of the few cases where I feel there are circumstances and "evidence" (use the term loosely) that can support all three theories without one feeling like the strongest possibility. It's just so baffling and frustrating!

Look forward to catching up with the podcast!

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Pleeeeeeease don't leave us in suspense! What'd it say?!?!?!

"Ray,

I love you!

If you decide to go on a ride, call or email. If you stay home, I have errands & can ... [torn]

... Honey has been o[ut?]

and did everything.

[drawn heart], PF"

On the back it says:

"[torn] ... at home
[torn] ... noon & let Honey out."

In other words, it pretty says what we were told it said. The desk calendar's are more interesting.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I think they got him at that car..and while I thoroughly prescribe to the fight like hell theory,
Not all fights are successful, and if more than two people are involved and guns are involved
it may quickly become " game over. "

or...before the car was moved, as I personally have never trusted that the store owner saw Ray himself move the mini..

is money involved? why didn't Ray have any money? I wonder what his ex might say about
Ray's money habits. Has she commented on that in the past?

I haven't watched the other thing yet.

I cant wait to see this all unfold.

mOO

The area is along a busy street and at least the windows from two houses face the parking lot. If there was a noisy struggle, it very likely would have been heard, if not seen.

The store owner didn't see RFG in the Mini, but there were at least 5 witnesses that did on 4/15. The next episode should give us some more information. Remember also that the bloodhound detected RFG's scent in the parking lot.

 

[minazoe]

they met him in the parking lot then..someone was at the passenger window with a cig...or someone got into the drivers seat to reach over and check the glove box.

Ray could have been quickly incapacitated with a lead pipe to the head..no discussion necessary once he stepped out of his vehicle.

other option might be that he willingly went to a meeting..and that the car was checked over for tracking or listening devices..phones etc...and Ray was also checked for a wire.

who are these bad guys?

mOO

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Snipped for emphasis.

other option might be that he willingly went to a meeting..and that the car was checked over for tracking or listening devices..phones etc...and Ray was also checked for a wire.

who are these bad guys?

mOO

This is the one that is quite possible. RFG could have met someone, gone with them willingly, and then enter a trap. This is the one keeping me up at night.

 

[minazoe]

it does seem to come together...because the suicide has never come together for me..I mean
there are many inexplicable suicides...but it just doesn't come together...especially with him never being found..and as I've said many times..it just doesn't seem like they looked that hard for Ray..something isn't right about the whole shebang. mOO

 

[SeekingJana]

"Ray,

I love you!

If you decide to go on a ride, call or email. If you stay home, I have errands & can ... [torn]

... Honey has been o[ut?]

and did everything.

[drawn heart], PF"

On the back it says:

"[torn] ... at home
[torn] ... noon & let Honey out."

In other words, it pretty says what we were told it said. The desk calendar's are more interesting.

The note serves as proof, to me, that Ray was likely NOT asleep when Patti was up and getting ready for work on April 15.

All the things we are told he said on the court house phone call are IN THE NOTE.
1) Dog's needs
2) He might be " on the road" instead of working.
3) She establishes a quasi- alibi with the note to him, apropos of nothing, that she'd let the dog out at lunch.
What possible difference does it make when a dog went outside after the fact? Why did she list her activities?

If my husband and I left notes about when the dogs went out, we'd never get anything else done.

When she was questioned about the call from Ray's cell, she regurgitated the contents of the note. He'd already told her he likely was taking Friday off, because she mentions it in the note first thing.
The call was, IMO, either about something else, or she was a suspicious type person who needed a lot of reassurance.

That whole thing just goes in a circle of stupid. Think about it. This is not the way adults with high IQs talk to each other over and over about a dog at home. ( Note- kidney disease in older dogs is chronic, not acute. She was not in a vet hospital but likely was nearing the end of her lifespan in a natural way).NO reason to be alarmed about the dog. Keep the carpet cleaner's number close at hand if you own dogs.

Ray didn't put that much energy into talking about Patti's dog. The call was likely about Lewisburg, and may have included a vague question or two from Patti about " When are you coming home?"

She was starting to panic by the time she returned from aerobics or yoga, not sure which, and it was likely not even dark outside yet.
Did she know or suspect something ( of a personal nature of course)?

 

[minazoe]

okay this note stuff ..okay? ...don't get me going on my Patty suspicions...oh god...this is gonna bug the living bejesus out of me.

mOO

 

[J. J. in Phila]

I did note something in the calendars.

RFG was on the prison board, ex officio. The prison board meets monthly, I think the second Thursday. It is on his April calendar, but not on his May calendar or any other date after April.

That Monday, RFG was to testify about if a ADA could examine a witness. If the judge said he couldn't, then RFG would question the witness. I think that came up a short time before he disappeared. Other than that, there was nothing else that involved him that week personally.

There was something listed as "Spring Carlisle 20-24" on the box for April 20th. Carlisle is a town SE of Bellefonte about an 82-85 mile drive.

 

[J. J. in Phila]

Snipped for brevity.

That whole thing just goes in a circle of stupid. Think about it. This is not the way adults with high IQs talk to each other over and over about a dog at home. ( Note- kidney disease in older dogs is chronic, not acute. She was not in a vet hospital but likely was nearing the end of her lifespan in a natural way).NO reason to be alarmed about the dog. Keep the carpet cleaner's number close at hand if you own dogs.

My understanding that this was pretty much PEF. That is just how she does things.

The dog was old and did die within the year.