Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #132

[TL4S]

In the media thread, posts 757 and 758?
IN - Abigail Williams & Liberty German, Delphi, Media, Maps, Timelines NO DISCUSSION

Thank you! Yes, this is what JH said:

We do check with other states to see if they have anything close; and obviously the case in Iowa is the closest; but they don't even know the cause of death in that one because they didn't find the victims until later. So, it's hard to compare. But it is similar, but, so, we have taken that into consideration as well, and we have investigated that. We've been in contact with Iowa and they have been in contact with us, and we've discussed that, but nothing else seems to be popping up around the nation that is similar to this.

*However, this interview is old, and with the source @Yemelyan quoted being closer or directly related to the Evansdale case, I'd tend to go with that. Jmo

 

[photographer4]

LE usually looks at it from the opposite side we do. We think, "What harm could it do to release the information?" They think, "What reason is there to release information? Nobody needs to know."

That's problematic because if the cause of death was (for example) a knife injury, or a sharp object, that info COULD potentially help someone realize they might know who the killer is. EG: if X is someone who has a lot of knives or blades of various types, or he likes to forge his own (like the tv show)... it could really help someone clue in and have a lightbulb moment! Oh gosh! Uncle X has been collecting or making blades for years! He has a similar walk or voice... holy crap it COULD be him maybe I should call it in????

The idea that the general public needs little to no info is infuriating. Cases have gone unsolved over 50 years because police won't release information for whatever reason. 50. Years.

 

[carbuff]

That's problematic because if the cause of death was (for example) a knife injury, or a sharp object, that info COULD potentially help someone realize they might know who the killer is. EG: if X is someone who has a lot of knives or blades of various types, or he likes to forge his own (like the tv show)... it could really help someone clue in and have a lightbulb moment! Oh gosh! Uncle X has been collecting or making blades for years! He has a similar walk or voice... holy crap it COULD be him maybe I should call it in????

The idea that the general public needs little to no info is infuriating. Cases have gone unsolved over 50 years because police won't release information for whatever reason. 50. Years.

Hey, you don't need to try to convince me!

 

[photographer4]

Hey, you don't need to try to convince me!

Sorry - I didn't mean to rant at you or anyone here! I'm sure we all want the same thing: to catch the killer and gain a conviction with a stiff penalty!

 

[OverTheRhine]

That's problematic because if the cause of death was (for example) a knife injury, or a sharp object, that info COULD potentially help someone realize they might know who the killer is. EG: if X is someone who has a lot of knives or blades of various types, or he likes to forge his own (like the tv show)... it could really help someone clue in and have a lightbulb moment! Oh gosh! Uncle X has been collecting or making blades for years! He has a similar walk or voice... holy crap it COULD be him maybe I should call it in????

The idea that the general public needs little to no info is infuriating. Cases have gone unsolved over 50 years because police won't release information for whatever reason. 50. Years.

This is actually why they don't release a lot of information. They've already got everyone and their mother sending in tips because of how huge this case is. I see so much stupid crap on these facebook groups where people are turning in half the town of Delphi and Carroll County. If they release what they know, not only will they get even more unsubstantiated tips, now they have no way to authenticate the tips.

All of these tips,reddit posts, facebook posts, youtube videos, blog posts, etc are potential leads. All it takes is for one of these persons to include something that wasn't released to the public to send a red flag. If you send in a tip "oh that's my dad on there, he looks like BG" vs "oh that's why dad on that bridge, he looks like BG, and also has a so-and-so knife and drives a "so-and-so" car. If the knife and car weren't released to the public, now they have something to go on. If a person thinks they recognize the man on the bridge or/and the voice, they need to report it. There's no reason to wait for X information to be released.

 

[photographer4]

One of the things I wonder about Libby and Abby's case is whether the killer thought he was going to have more time to maybe take them somewhere else, but had to change plans when the search started so quickly.

I've wondered that as well. We have no idea, but I lean towards that not being the plan on the basis that the police have said the crime scene had some things about it that were odd. It wasn't an ordinary someone was killed here kind of scene. They even asked for photos of the area to try to clarify what they had going on out there (loosely paraphrased... still trying to find the actual article with that quote). But that request for photos of the area strikes me as an indication that the crime scene may have been staged BEFORE the girls ended up there as opposed to after their murders.

If the scene was just two bodies in the woods, that wouldn't be unusual enough that police would request photos of the area, from before the girls died, would it? So for that reason, I think the killer had no plan to take them somewhere else.

 

[photographer4]

Delphi murders reward up to $325K after anonymous donation - Court TV


"Police had previously said that the video was recorded during “criminal activity,” although they have never clarified exactly what that activity might have been."

It occurs to me that the criminal activity in question might not have anything to do with the predator coming up on them. Maybe the girls happened to notice some other criminal activity going on in their immediate surroundings, and someone took notice of them as a result? Maybe its as simple as someone was afraid of being found out for some other crime that day, so he killed them. Its possible the video might have some snippet of something else going on in the area that day that they videoed on purpose or just coincidentally.

Maybe its just a lot simpler than we think. Especially since police asked for photos to clarify what they had going on out there - maybe there was a meth lab where they were found. We have NO idea. Sure hope police know what they are looking for, if not WHO.

 

[photographer4]

This is actually why they don't release a lot of information. They've already got everyone and their mother sending in tips because of how huge this case is. I see so much stupid crap on these facebook groups where people are turning in half the town of Delphi and Carroll County. If they release what they know, not only will they get even more unsubstantiated tips, now they have no way to authenticate the tips.

All of these tips,reddit posts, facebook posts, youtube videos, blog posts, etc are potential leads. All it takes is for one of these persons to include something that wasn't released to the public to send a red flag. If you send in a tip "oh that's my dad on there, he looks like BG" vs "oh that's why dad on that bridge, he looks like BG, and also has a so-and-so knife and drives a "so-and-so" car. If the knife and car weren't released to the public, now they have something to go on. If a person thinks they recognize the man on the bridge or/and the voice, they need to report it. There's no reason to wait for X information to be released.

Ok, those are fair points. I see what you're saying. But do the police actually actively monitor social media like Reddit, FB etc? Probably not. Odds are if someone says something in a social media post or anywhere online really the police will miss it, because NO ONE has time to be on top of every thread, every comment, all over the internet!! So I still think being a touch more open might be more useful. It might also cut down on time wasted on false tips... I'd actually be curious to know in this case and several others, how much time / and how many resources have been devoted to useless tips and at what cost to taxpayers?

 

[MistyWaters]

Delphi murders reward up to $325K after anonymous donation - Court TV


"Police had previously said that the video was recorded during “criminal activity,” although they have never clarified exactly what that activity might have been."

It occurs to me that the criminal activity in question might not have anything to do with the predator coming up on them. Maybe the girls happened to notice some other criminal activity going on in their immediate surroundings, and someone took notice of them as a result? Maybe its as simple as someone was afraid of being found out for some other crime that day, so he killed them. Its possible the video might have some snippet of something else going on in the area that day that they videoed on purpose or just coincidentally.

Maybe its just a lot simpler than we think. Especially since police asked for photos to clarify what they had going on out there - maybe there was a meth lab where they were found. We have NO idea. Sure hope police know what they are looking for, if not WHO.

The exact quote wasn’t that the video was taken during criminal activity or maybe even after criminal activity occurred. I think it’s absolutely clear LE was referring to the criminal behaviour involved the man ordering the girls “down the hill” which is an abduction (ie manipulation and intimidation) which then resulted in the double homicide.

“To have enough presence of mind to activate the video system on her cell phone to record what we believe is criminal behavior about to occur, there is no doubt in our mind that she is a hero.”..”
Why Police Have Not Released Details on the Murders of Libby German and Abby Williams from Delphi, Indiana

“This is the face of the suspect that goes with body of the video captured on Liberty German's cell phone minutes before she and Abigail Williams were murdered.”
New 'Face' of the Delphi Murder Suspect

 

[TL4S]

Can anyone tell me (hopefully with an informative link) why police tape would be left up after the area has been released by LE? Is that somewhat normal procedure after an investigation?

In this case, was tape left up everywhere they had it, like the trail head, south of bridge, etc.? I've always been surprised any tape was left at all.

 

[MistyWaters]

Can anyone tell me (hopefully with an informative link) why police tape would be left up after the area has been released by LE? Is that somewhat normal procedure after an investigation?

In this case, was tape left up at all the access points, like the trail head, south of bridge, etc?

I’ve wondered why the police tape was left behind as well. In a rural setting I’d think it would be used to block public access. In larger urban centres entire streets are blocked off even if a crime only occurs at one particular location.

Does anyone remember if I recall correctly that in one of Julie’s Ms videos some crime scene tape was also shown dangling from one side of the bridge? I’m weary from watching those videos so many times but if anyone plans to do so in the near future, please keep an eye out.

 

[MistyWaters]

Here is a photo of crime scene tape across what appears to be the trail leading to the bridge - an access point, definitely not the location where the bodies were found.

https://twitter.com/pharosjkk/status/831950751425556480

 

[TL4S]

Here is a photo of crime scene tape across what appears to be the trail leading to the bridge - an access point, definitely not the location where the bodies were found.

https://twitter.com/pharosjkk/status/831950751425556480

View attachment 291936

I wonder how long it stayed up on the trail and RL's property, and who eventually removed it. I guess I've never paid enough attention to crime scenes to know when the tape comes down.

 

[photographer4]

The exact quote wasn’t that the video was taken during criminal activity or maybe even after criminal activity occurred. I think it’s absolutely clear LE was referring to the criminal behaviour involved the man ordering the girls “down the hill” which is an abduction (ie manipulation and intimidation) which then resulted in the double homicide.

“To have enough presence of mind to activate the video system on her cell phone to record what we believe is criminal behavior about to occur, there is no doubt in our mind that she is a hero.”..”
Why Police Have Not Released Details on the Murders of Libby German and Abby Williams from Delphi, Indiana

“This is the face of the suspect that goes with body of the video captured on Liberty German's cell phone minutes before she and Abigail Williams were murdered.”
New 'Face' of the Delphi Murder Suspect

I think your quote makes it far more clear than the one I produced! Thanks!

 

[photographer4]

Can anyone tell me (hopefully with an informative link) why police tape would be left up after the area has been released by LE? Is that somewhat normal procedure after an investigation?

In this case, was tape left up everywhere they had it, like the trail head, south of bridge, etc.? I've always been surprised any tape was left at all.

I was also wondering if police had the scene cleaned up by a crime scene clean up crew?? Does anyone happen to know??

 

[MistyWaters]

I wonder how long it stayed up on the trail and RL's property, and who eventually took it down. I guess I've never paid enough attention to crime scenes to know when the tape comes down.

This report from Feb 27th had it still up.

“The crime scene tape is still up and marks the circular plot of land where the girls bodies were found. For two weeks police have combed every inch of the woods from the Monon High Bridge where the girls were last seen to the spot where they were found. Investigators are using several resources at the large outdoor scene...”
Police continue to search woods for evidence in Delphi double homicide | Fox 59

 

[TL4S]

This report from Feb 27th had it still up.

“The crime scene tape is still up and marks the circular plot of land where the girls bodies were found. For two weeks police have combed every inch of the woods from the Monon High Bridge where the girls were last seen to the spot where they were found. Investigators are using several resources at the large outdoor scene...”
Police continue to search woods for evidence in Delphi double homicide | Fox 59

RL was showing the tapped-off area of his property to media on Feb. 17, 2017. I wonder how long police manned the area to keep people out.

https://www.wrtv.com/news/local-new...e-bodies-of-two-missing-teen-girls-were-found

 

[:+:MrTT:+:]

.Just guessing. Nothing factual or for certain, just speculation on the cause of death. I would guess drowning. The water was waist high on a average tall man. I say he drowned them both in the water at the same time as he held onto them. And then dragged them up towards the cemetery where his car was parked.

There is a chance the LEOs found one body floating in the water, and put her on the bank, And went into the water to search for the other one they may had still been on the bottom. There was no strong current so they were able to walk the water arm and arm, shoulder to shoulder to find the other one in the dirty dark water......BUT ALL JUST A GUESS AND ASSUMPTION.

Imageries from this YouTube video

ALL JUST MOO. ALL SPECULATION AND ASSUMPTION. NOTHING BEING POSTED AS FACT. A MERE GUESS ON MY PART

 

[FrostedGlass]

I’ve wondered why the police tape was left behind as well. In a rural setting I’d think it would be used to block public access. In larger urban centres entire streets are blocked off even if a crime only occurs at one particular location.

Does anyone remember if I recall correctly that in one of Julie’s Ms videos some crime scene tape was also shown dangling from one side of the bridge? I’m weary from watching those videos so many times but if anyone plans to do so in the near future, please keep an eye out.

It's in Video 1 Retracing Libby and Abby's Steps, dated March 5, 2017. It look like it begins at the metal barricade and ends about halfway to the bridge.

 

[FrostedGlass]

The Holeman interview was what led me to believe this was not a sexual assault. Below is his quote:

"I still believe somebody knows, somebody knows what happened. For whatever reason, they won't come forward, and we wish they would, obviously.... because this person's probably gonna do this again and I'd hate for that to happen to you or your loved ones. That's the message that I want to get out to the public, that if you do know, for sure you need to let us know so we can possibly stop this from happening again to your daughter, or your mother, or sister, or anybody. Could be brother or father as well, so..."

Unless my memory fails me, Holeman is the only one who has ever discussed crossing the creek. Even then, he doesn't come right out and say that's what happened. Here's that part:

"A: When you walked down and I walked through, that was private property right where the bodies were found. Looking at it logistically from where they were on the bridge and to where their bodies were found, I know we talked about the terrain in the past. I know it's not an easy thing to navigate. Usually you might have to be familiar with the area. I mean, would it have been difficult for the girls to from where they were on the bridge to where they were found?
H: [10:49] Yeah. Absolutely. I think it would be difficult, obviously. They have to go through some pretty steep terrain in a wooded area, sticker bushes and things like that, so it's uh ... and then to cross the creek. The creek, and obviously it's February, it's probably not the warmest . The weather was a warm day that day, but still the water temperature is probably cooler than the air temperature. So yeah, it would have been difficult for .... I mean, I don't think anybody, say on a walk, would walk that way."