Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #132

[Yellow Rose]

Hard to believe this case hasn’t been resolved after 132 threads, I’ve been staying on the periphery since everything seems to get rehashed a gazillion times. Hoping though that with the anonymous reward donation rising that someone falls on the sword to someone responsible for the brutal slaying of these two innocents. Reward for Delphi killer's capture climbs to $325K after anonymous donor gives $100K | Daily Mail Online

 

[obamas tie]

Does anyone know if the girls, one or the other belonged to any chat sites???
If they did, it would NOT/PROBABLY NOT would have been on their cell phones. But I would like to know if either had a desktop computer at home they had access too. Girls' being girls I wonder if one of them had made an appointment to meet a cute boy they had been chatting with, and decided to meet up on the bridge on that Monday, during a particular time. But instead of a cute boy they thought they were chatting with, here comes the killer that pretended to be that cute young boy. But one of the girls didn't or couldn't go by themselves so the other went with them. Of course the parents would not had known anything about them meeting up with a cute young boy on the bridge on that Monday.

But then again. If they did, and deleted those messages afterwards after planning the met up, then of course their be no record of it to view

ALL MOO AND SPECULATION. NOTHING POSTED AS BEING FACTUAL. ALL JUST ASSUMPTIONS. THINKING OUTSIDE THE BOX

Yeah that's a good point. They probably had at least some social media accounts. It seems unlikely a random guy would just be randomly walk into the girls on that one particular day.

 

[photographer4]

.Just guessing. Nothing factual or for certain, just speculation on the cause of death. I would guess drowning. The water was waist high on a average tall man. I say he drowned them both in the water at the same time as he held onto them. And then dragged them up towards the cemetery where his car was parked.

There is a chance the LEOs found one body floating in the water, and put her on the bank, And went into the water to search for the other one they may had still been on the bottom. There was no strong current so they were able to walk the water arm and arm, shoulder to shoulder to find the other one in the dirty dark water......BUT ALL JUST A GUESS AND ASSUMPTION.

Imageries from this YouTube video

ALL JUST MOO. ALL SPECULATION AND ASSUMPTION. NOTHING BEING POSTED AS FACT. A MERE GUESS ON MY PART

I considered drowning too but not on the creek bed actually. No way BG dragged 200lbs of Libby (I cited her weight from an official source way up thread last time we discussed if they'd been dragged anywhere). Its rough terrain. 50ft from the creek is how far LE said they'd been found. So for that reason, I ruled out drowning in the creek.

That does not however, rule out drowning in other water that may have been near where they were found.

 

[photographer4]

That's entirely possible, but it wouldn't be the only possibility. It could be something he left, or the way he does something (ties knots, perhaps?), or even the mechanics of the murder and the bodies. Probably other things that I can't think of right now. Don't want to, to be honest...

Interesting point about knots - if he tied a knot, its possible investigators untied it and took DNA from it.

I dont think he did, I think he left them in the water. And during there search they; found one floating or near the top of the water, and the LEOS brought her ashore, then they went back in and walked shoulder to shoulder arm in arm, looking for the other one by walking the water. I think they found the skinny one first, and then searched for the other one,. ALL JUST MOO THOUGH, SPECULATIOIN, NOTING POSTED AS FACTUAL JUST PURE SPECULATION AND ASSUMPTIONS

THinking more on this: I don't think either girl was found by LE in the water as it's been said by Kim Riley that he stood on a ridge about 300ft away and he could see them just lying there. The bodies were found about 50ft from the creek according to LE which to me, rules them out from being found in the creek. Near it yet, but not in it.

 

[photographer4]

I think he either drowned or choked them due to the facility they sent the bodies to. It's more likely that he choked them once they were on dry land but I have no idea how he got them up the banks.

Can you please elaborate on this idea? Where were they taken and how does that make it more likely they were choked?

 

[photographer4]

In those images of the water search, they could be looking for other evidence in the creek besides bodies.

Agreed. They were looking for any other possible evidence at all (they may not even have known what they were looking for, and just picking up items of possible interest).

Things they may have been looking for might include:
-> tobacco products in water / along shore
> clothing / footwear
> weapon(s)
> evidence of other crimes (eg: drugs, prostitution)
> electronic device(s) (cell phone, watch(es), key(s)
> string / rope

Anything else they could have been searching the water for?

 

[minazoe]

yes what facility? what do you mean?

 

[Peppery]

Agreed. They were looking for any other possible evidence at all (they may not even have known what they were looking for, and just picking up items of possible interest).

Things they may have been looking for might include:
-> tobacco products in water / along shore
> clothing / footwear
> weapon(s)
> evidence of other crimes (eg: drugs, prostitution)
> electronic device(s) (cell phone, watch(es), key(s)
> string / rope

Anything else they could have been searching the water for?

My guess is they were looking for anything they could find but specifically Libby's cell phone that the Patty's would've known was missing and the murder weapon which I believe was a knife or bladed instrument.

 

[Peppery]

yes what facility? what do you mean?

I know they were autopsied in Terre Haute, IN but I assumed it was the closest or fasted location.

 

[TL4S]

I was also wondering if police had the scene cleaned up by a crime scene clean up crew?? Does anyone happen to know??

I don't know about a clean up crew, but if we are to assume the murders occurred in the tapped-off area which RL described as "pristine," I see nothing to warrant some of the theories that pop up occasionally. I see no apparent drag marks, no disturbed soil, no cleared areas, no obvious broken tree limbs, etc. I see one damaged tree (near center of photo below), but it looks damaged most the way up and appears to be right at the edge of the tape. Jmo

 

[FrostedGlass]

Can you please elaborate on this idea? Where were they taken and how does that make it more likely they were choked?

The bodies were sent to Terre Haute IN for the autopsies. There is a pathologist there, Dr. Roland Kohr, who has expertise in asphyxia, along with blood/fluid testing and tissue biopsy. It could be just a matter of convenience, as another poster suggested but his expertise caught my attention.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

Does anyone know if the girls, one or the other belonged to any chat sites???
If they did, it would NOT/PROBABLY NOT would have been on their cell phones. But I would like to know if either had a desktop computer at home they had access too. Girls' being girls I wonder if one of them had made an appointment to meet a cute boy they had been chatting with, and decided to meet up on the bridge on that Monday, during a particular time. But instead of a cute boy they thought they were chatting with, here comes the killer that pretended to be that cute young boy. But one of the girls didn't or couldn't go by themselves so the other went with them. Of course the parents would not had known anything about them meeting up with a cute young boy on the bridge on that Monday.

But then again. If they did, and deleted those messages afterwards after planning the met up, then of course their be no record of it to view

ALL MOO AND SPECULATION. NOTHING POSTED AS BEING FACTUAL. ALL JUST ASSUMPTIONS. THINKING OUTSIDE THE BOX

There has been a lot of talk here about possible online chats and social media concerning the girls. LE though has repeatedly said that LE has looked into that and all the electronic devises of the girls and everyone in their families and have found nothing linked to the crime.

 

[photographer4]

The bodies were sent to Terre Haute IN for the autopsies. There is a pathologist there, Dr. Roland Kohr, who has expertise in asphyxia, along with blood/fluid testing and tissue biopsy. It could be just a matter of convenience, as another poster suggested but his expertise caught my attention.

Asphyxia would make sense to me given that LE have commented that searchers may not have known what they'd come upon initially. If this was a bloody /gory scene, anyone in the search party would have had no question what they'd come upon. They'd have known immediately this was a murder. But not knowing what they'd come upon suggests to me that the girls were possibly not showing obvious signs of trauma.

Quoting myself from:

Found Deceased - IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #130

(Q. In the public domain there have been descriptions of the crime scene, descriptions of items found and the positioning of the bodies. Do you feel there was an excessive number of persons present once it was determined to be a crime scene?

A. Once secured by law enforcement as a crime scene, no. I would surmise that searchers did not immediately know what they had come upon.) Source: Carroll County Comet.

 

[photographer4]

If searchers didn't know what they'd come upon immediately, then asphyxia seems the most likely explanation as to why not. So then I'd have to ask with what?

If something cut off oxygen from outside the body, if their necks were visible to searchers, would the COD have been obvious to searchers who found them? Eg: would they have had marks on their necks from the force applied?

OR:
Could it have been that searchers didn't know what they'd come upon because perhaps something suffocated them from the inside? EG: a sock stuffed down their throat? Would searchers have noticed that?

How did searchers not know what they'd come upon? They found the girls, was it obvious they were deceased at all or did they look as though they were sleeping?

I can't imagine a bloody gory death that isn't noticed by searchers right away - unless the injuries and blood were concealed.

 

[FrostedGlass]

I don't know about a clean up crew, but if we are to assume the murders occurred in the tapped-off area which RL described as "pristine," I see nothing to warrant some of the theories that pop up occasionally. I see no apparent drag marks, no disturbed soil, no cleared areas, no obvious broken tree limbs, etc. I see one damaged tree (near center of photo below), but it looks damaged most the way up and appears to be right at the edge of the tape. Jmo

View attachment 292032

I'm open to the possibility that there were 2 taped-off areas on Rl's property. One that didn't have much evidence so they allowed reporters access to that one. Another located further east which they did not allow access to.

 

[carbuff]

I don't know about a clean up crew, but if we are to assume the murders occurred in the tapped-off area which RL described as "pristine," I see nothing to warrant some of the theories that pop up occasionally. I see no apparent drag marks, no disturbed soil, no cleared areas, no obvious broken tree limbs, etc. I see one damaged tree (near center of photo below), but it looks damaged most the way up and appears to be right at the edge of the tape. Jmo

View attachment 292032

It seems to me that the scene being that pristine is by itself a bit unusual. At very least you'd expect marks where evidence was removed, that kind of thing. At the scene where L&L's bodies were recovered, they cut down most of the shrubs (?and sent them to the lab for analysis?) and raked up the layer of leaves that had fallen after the bodies were left there.

 

[MistyWaters]

If searchers didn't know what they'd come upon immediately, then asphyxia seems the most likely explanation as to why not. So then I'd have to ask with what?

If something cut off oxygen from outside the body, if their necks were visible to searchers, would the COD have been obvious to searchers who found them? Eg: would they have had marks on their necks from the force applied?

OR:
Could it have been that searchers didn't know what they'd come upon because perhaps something suffocated them from the inside? EG: a sock stuffed down their throat? Would searchers have noticed that?

How did searchers not know what they'd come upon? They found the girls, was it obvious they were deceased at all or did they look as though they were sleeping?

I can't imagine a bloody gory death that isn't noticed by searchers right away - unless the injuries and blood were concealed.

We can’t just assume the searchers approached within a few feet of the bodies. As soon as they noticed there was no movement, often as searchers are required to do, they may’ve stood back and immediately contacted the search coordinator to notify them of their discovery so that emergency responders could be quickly contacted.

The role of a searcher involved in an official search is to locate, that’s it.

 

[MistyWaters]

It seems to me that the scene being that pristine is by itself a bit unusual. At very least you'd expect marks where evidence was removed, that kind of thing. At the scene where L&L's bodies were recovered, they cut down most of the shrubs (?and sent them to the lab for analysis?) and raked up the layer of leaves that had fallen after the bodies were left there.

Some of the photos that I’ve noticed show one corner of crime scene tape but never the other. In this video there’s glimpses of crime scene tape running into the far distance - the area taped off is most definitely far larger than just a small square. Maybe it ran a narrow path along the entire mile of RLs property along the creek bank. No way would RL have the ability to identify the exact location and I don’t think that was ever his intention. I think he was just pointing out crime scene tape located on his property and people automatically jumped to the conclusion the bodies were found wherever the reporters pointed their camera.

Delphi, Indiana Murders: Reward in 2017 killings of 2 teens grows to $325K

 

[Charlot123]

Hard to believe this case hasn’t been resolved after 132 threads, I’ve been staying on the periphery since everything seems to get rehashed a gazillion times. Hoping though that with the anonymous reward donation rising that someone falls on the sword to someone responsible for the brutal slaying of these two innocents. Reward for Delphi killer's capture climbs to $325K after anonymous donor gives $100K | Daily Mail Online

I think the problem might be, there is an abyss in mentality lying between today’s teenagers, who grew up with computer games, internet sites and the whole online world, and people of DC/TL generation, who probably did not. Unless you can physically see every post your kid makes, you can not understand how he/she lives. Logically thinking, there must have been a certain connection between the girls and the murderer, at least he must have known about them, but it is possible that the connection is only online. I still think he has the victims stacked up in the areas he visits, and he has a good alibi to visit these areas, but it is JMO.

 

[TL4S]

I'm open to the possibility that there were 2 taped-off areas on Rl's property. One that didn't have much evidence so they allowed reporters access to that one. Another located further east which they did not allow access to.

The area south of the cemetery does feel like more than just a blocked access point to the real crime scene, imo, because it appears to be taped-off on three sides. It's obvious I'm open to considering there's an unknown CS farther east, but I do think the taped-off area is either it, or maybe where they crossed the creek (or both). I'm having a hard time, however, reconciling LE leaving the spot where two children died, on private property, taped-off for weeks after the the fact, but maybe that's normal procedure.

I also thought it was standard procedure to preserve the possible entrance and exit paths, as well, but it seems the cemetery wasn't considered that at the time of the investigation. That's odd to me, if the taped-off area is indeed the final CS, because of its proximity, but I'm not LE. Here's what TL said in the Comet Q&A:


Q. Are there regrets about not securing the Morning Heights Cemetery as a possible part of the crime scene (i.e. possible exit route of the killer(s)?

A. At the time, it was uncertain exactly what the “totality of the circumstances” were.
------

Q. There are many residents of the county that have never been on the trails, describe the terrain of where the girls were found? What is the most direct route out of the area they were found? How long of a walk from where they entered to where they were found?

A. Very similar to one of the state’s parks. A lot of hills, brush, trees, etc. Directly south of the Morning Heights Cemetery but on private property. I do not recall the specific distance.