Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #132

[Charlot123]

If searchers didn't know what they'd come upon immediately, then asphyxia seems the most likely explanation as to why not. So then I'd have to ask with what?

If something cut off oxygen from outside the body, if their necks were visible to searchers, would the COD have been obvious to searchers who found them? Eg: would they have had marks on their necks from the force applied?

OR:
Could it have been that searchers didn't know what they'd come upon because perhaps something suffocated them from the inside? EG: a sock stuffed down their throat? Would searchers have noticed that?

How did searchers not know what they'd come upon? They found the girls, was it obvious they were deceased at all or did they look as though they were sleeping?

I can't imagine a bloody gory death that isn't noticed by searchers right away - unless the injuries and blood were concealed.

One of two, either the scene mimicked something a SK would create, with all these signatures, and IRL, he was local and targeting one victim only, or, he made it look like there was an obvious purpose for an attack, but IRL, there was none, or the true reason was totally different. JMO.

Bizarre case.

 

[photographer4]

We can’t just assume the searchers approached within a few feet of the bodies. As soon as they noticed there was no movement, often as searchers are required to do, they may’ve stood back and immediately contacted the search coordinator to notify them of their discovery so that emergency responders could be quickly contacted.

The role of a searcher involved in an official search is to locate, that’s it.

I actually had imagined the searchers may have walked right up to the bodies. Its possible someone may even have checked for a pulse. We don't know. All we know is they were found by a group of searchers, and they may not have realized immediately what they'd come upon.

 

[MistyWaters]

I think the problem might be, there is an abyss in mentality lying between today’s teenagers, who grew up with computer games, internet sites and the whole online world, and people of DC/TL generation, who probably did not. Unless you can physically see every post your kid makes, you can not understand how he/she lives. Logically thinking, there must have been a certain connection between the girls and the murderer, at least he must have known about them, but it is possible that the connection is only online. I still think he has the victims stacked up in the areas he visits, and he has a good alibi to visit these areas, but it is JMO.

Wasn’t it recently stated by LE that the girls were victims of “circumstance and opportunity”? To me those words indicate their murders were the exact opposite of any premeditated and targeted scenario.

 

[MistyWaters]

I actually had imagined the searchers may have walked right up to the bodies. Its possible someone may even have checked for a pulse. We don't know. All we know is they were found by a group of searchers, and they may not have realized immediately what they'd come upon.

No I definitely don’t think volunteer searchers would be expected to check for a pulse as they’re are not trained in emergency response. After locating, approaching might also needlessly waste valuable time if there’s a chance official responders could save a life.

I don’t know what the searchers observed or how close they got but I think there’s too many unknowns to draw any firm conclusions about why they didn’t immediately notice a crime had occurred. It could be something as simple as the bodies were partially out of view or were covered with leaves.

 

[catch_22]

One possibility on why the tape could have been left up:

I would think that within a few days of the crime, that anything that LE thought could be potential evidence would have been collected. But I'm sure over the following weeks or months, different officers from different agencies had various reasons for wanting to visit the crime scene. I'm not trying to make light of the situation, but without the tape they were liable to be wandering around out there like the blair witch project. Just a thought.....

MOO

 

[TL4S]

It seems to me that the scene being that pristine is by itself a bit unusual. At very least you'd expect marks where evidence was removed, that kind of thing. At the scene where L&L's bodies were recovered, they cut down most of the shrubs (?and sent them to the lab for analysis?) and raked up the layer of leaves that had fallen after the bodies were left there.

That's always been a question in my mind, too. It's not that I think we should necessarily see more signs if violence or chaos within that taped-off area, but in the photos I've seen, I see absolutely no signs of any activity. Like you said with the other case, here we have nowhere that looks like leaves, grass, or twigs have been collected or even disturbed. IMO

 

[MistyWaters]

One possibility on why the tape could have been left up:

I would think that within a few days of the crime, that anything that LE thought could be potential evidence would have been collected. But I'm sure over the following weeks or months, different officers from different agencies had various reasons for wanting to visit the crime scene. I'm not trying to make light of the situation, but without the tape they were liable to be wandering around out there like the blair witch project. Just a thought.....

MOO

I’ve noticed the photos of the taped “crime scene” has no indication of evidence markers. Although I don’t know for sure but it would seem logical that evidence markers and tape would be removed together when all work is completed.

 

[TL4S]

One possibility on why the tape could have been left up:

I would think that within a few days of the crime, that anything that LE thought could be potential evidence would have been collected. But I'm sure over the following weeks or months, different officers from different agencies had various reasons for wanting to visit the crime scene. I'm not trying to make light of the situation, but without the tape they were liable to be wandering around out there like the blair witch project. Just a thought.....

MOO

That's a good point. I am curious if after LE released the property back to RL, did LE then need to get permission to go back on?

 

[Yemelyan]

If searchers didn't know what they'd come upon immediately, then asphyxia seems the most likely explanation as to why not. So then I'd have to ask with what?

If something cut off oxygen from outside the body, if their necks were visible to searchers, would the COD have been obvious to searchers who found them? Eg: would they have had marks on their necks from the force applied?

OR:
Could it have been that searchers didn't know what they'd come upon because perhaps something suffocated them from the inside? EG: a sock stuffed down their throat? Would searchers have noticed that?

How did searchers not know what they'd come upon? They found the girls, was it obvious they were deceased at all or did they look as though they were sleeping?

I can't imagine a bloody gory death that isn't noticed by searchers right away - unless the injuries and blood were concealed.

Of course, we don't know for sure the method by which they died. But just to address your question about strangulation specifically:

IMO only...there are many post-mortem changes that would be taking place by the time they were found nearly 24 hours later and depending on several factors relating to timing and extent of these, physical "signs" of choking/strangling may not have been apparent to a civilian observer at the scene.

 

[TL4S]

I’ve noticed the photos of the taped “crime scene” has no indication of evidence markers. Although I don’t know for sure but it would seem logical that evidence markers and tape would be removed together when all work is completed.

I wonder the same. It seems if other agencies wanted to see the area, it would be most beneficial to have the exact body locations and any other evidence still marked, as well. Jmo But I guess they would have all that photographed, though.

It's all so frustrating to me.

 

[Yemelyan]

I wonder the same. It seems if other agencies wanted to see the area, it would be most beneficial to have the exact body locations and any other evidence still marked, as well. Jmo. It's all so frustrating to me.

Other agencies would probably have diagrams of exact locations from the case files. IMO

 

[FrostedGlass]

The area south of the cemetery does feel like more than just a blocked access point to the real crime scene, imo, because it appears to be taped-off on three sides. It's obvious I'm open to considering there's an unknown CS farther east, but I do think the taped-off area is either it, or maybe where they crossed the creek (or both). I'm having a hard time, however, reconciling LE leaving the spot where two children died, on private property, taped-off for weeks after the the fact, but maybe that's normal procedure.

I also thought it was standard procedure to preserve the possible entrance and exit paths, as well, but it seems the cemetery wasn't considered that at the time of the investigation. That's odd to me, if the taped-off area is indeed the final CS, because of its proximity, but I'm not LE. Here's what TL said in the Comet Q&A:


Q. Are there regrets about not securing the Morning Heights Cemetery as a possible part of the crime scene (i.e. possible exit route of the killer(s)?

A. At the time, it was uncertain exactly what the “totality of the circumstances” were.
------

Q. There are many residents of the county that have never been on the trails, describe the terrain of where the girls were found? What is the most direct route out of the area they were found? How long of a walk from where they entered to where they were found?

A. Very similar to one of the state’s parks. A lot of hills, brush, trees, etc. Directly south of the Morning Heights Cemetery but on private property. I do not recall the specific distance.

Here's a screen cap from one of the 4-year anniversary interviews. In the middle, on the right hand side, I think I see water. Riley described the scene: "...the creek ran through there real close to the crime scene..."
I think it looks like a little inlet and I was able to find something that seemed to match on the Beacon site. The area is located directly across from the drainage ditch that runs along the Weber property on the east.

 

[janewall]

If searchers didn't know what they'd come upon immediately, then asphyxia seems the most likely explanation as to why not. So then I'd have to ask with what?

RSBM.

Plastic bags. If the killer had already restrained the girls' hands with zip ties or other restraints, that would have been pathetically easy and effective, without any visible sign of trauma. This could have been an extremely low-tech pair of murders, without significant physical exertion on the killer's part once the girls were where he wanted them to be.

Just speculating, spurred by my nonstop unpacking and assembling baby supplies for the past 2 days (I have a pair of wee new grands), and every piece is wrapped in a bag with the asphyxiation hazard warning printed on it. And I'm remembering all that stuff he appears to have jammed into his jacket/pockets. What's more portable and lightweight than a bunch of plastic bags?

 

[minazoe]

RSBM.

Plastic bags. If the killer had already restrained the girls' hands with zip ties or other restraints, that would have been pathetically easy and effective, without any visible sign of trauma. This could have been an extremely low-tech pair of murders, without significant physical exertion on the killer's part once the girls were where he wanted them to be.

Just speculating, spurred by my nonstop unpacking and assembling baby supplies for the past 2 days (I have a pair of wee new grands), and every piece is wrapped in a bag with the asphyxiation hazard warning printed on it. And I'm remembering all that stuff he appears to have jammed into his jacket/pockets. What's more portable and lightweight than a bunch of plastic bags?

I hate him.

 

[TL4S]

Here's a screen cap from one of the 4-year anniversary interviews. In the middle, on the right hand side, I think I see water. Riley described the scene: "...the creek ran through there real close to the crime scene..."
I think it looks like a little inlet and I was able to find something that seemed to match on the Beacon site. The area is located directly across from the drainage ditch that runs along the Weber property on the east.

View attachment 292049

Hmm. That picture is different than any I've seen. There's another short video clip on this article that shows a taped-off area that doesn't look like the same south cemetery one, either. IDK, maybe just different angles?


State police receive a thousand tips since new Delphi evidence release | wthr.com

 

[janewall]

I hate him.

Right there with you.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

I think the problem might be, there is an abyss in mentality lying between today’s teenagers, who grew up with computer games, internet sites and the whole online world, and people of DC/TL generation, who probably did not. Unless you can physically see every post your kid makes, you can not understand how he/she lives. Logically thinking, there must have been a certain connection between the girls and the murderer, at least he must have known about them, but it is possible that the connection is only online. I still think he has the victims stacked up in the areas he visits, and he has a good alibi to visit these areas, but it is JMO.

I don’t understand the logic in your statement. Because kids spend a lot of time on the internet, logically, there must be a connection between the girls and the murderer? There is absolutely no indication, known to the public, other than speculation that the killer knew the girls in any way, internet or not.
Your last sentence, I agree with you 100%.
Just my thoughts.

 

[photographer4]

Here's a screen cap from one of the 4-year anniversary interviews. In the middle, on the right hand side, I think I see water. Riley described the scene: "...the creek ran through there real close to the crime scene..."
I think it looks like a little inlet and I was able to find something that seemed to match on the Beacon site. The area is located directly across from the drainage ditch that runs along the Weber property on the east.

View attachment 292049

Is this area I circled in red where you think you see water? I might see it too, not sure. Or, it could be a slope into the creek? Not sure. Also, if the creek ran through very close to the crime scene, maybe he did drown them, and didn't have to drag them anywhere.

 

[carbuff]

I’ve noticed the photos of the taped “crime scene” has no indication of evidence markers. Although I don’t know for sure but it would seem logical that evidence markers and tape would be removed together when all work is completed.

My experience with a crime near where I used to work was that they picked up the evidence marker when they gathered the evidence at that spot. In a couple of cases they replaced a yellow marker with a red one, I assume because they wanted to mark the location but also indicate the item had been processed. Most of the flags were shell casings but the one that went yellow to red was bigger. Might have been where a handgun was thrown.

But they didn't care about the tape. They took a couple of pieces that were across the sidewalk and told the maintenance people they could clean up the rest. One of the IT people grabbed some of it and for years after our computer lab was draped with crime scene tape.

 

[Justice101]

In Evansdale, the killer(s) took some sort of pains to place the bodies somewhere remote though, no? They knew the girls were unlikely to be found anytime soon... unless by pure coincidence. In Delphi, the killer had to have known that someone was going to be looking for the girls, and he could probably have figured out that people would be looking by that evening at the latest, nearest to where they were last seen / dropped off / meant to be. With that in mind, he killed the girls in a place where he was sure they'd be found fairly soon after death. He arranged it that way to shock people. He didn't hide them. He LEFT them where they were found. That's quite different than Evansdale (to me anyhow).

That said, he quite probably could have stalked them at some point before the murders. He may have been watching one or both for days or weeks. Online, in person, who knows. Have you ever read the book "You" or watched the show on Netflix? The killer in that one makes it quite clear how he stalked his victims in person and online, and even befriended them prior to killing them! Its creepy!

IMHO, the Evansdale girls were abducted via a vehicle that was on the ROAD near where the girls disappeared. Whereas the Delphi girls were left in the place where they were killed because he would have had to lug them up the hill and/or force them out in the open to a vehicle. In my opinion, there is a huge difference in killer's ability to abduct someone and move their bodies when they have a vehicle right there were as opposed to being on foot on a trail.