Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #132

[MistyWaters]

You are right about all of that. I guess for me, the significance is in deciding between whether this was a planned or impulsive crime. It's hard to imagine the killer planning that particular spot, or preparing it with stuff beforehand (as some have suggested), when there are many more secluded locations out of view of everyone. If he had planned this, and visited the spot prior to that day, he risked being seen on any number of times he was there. I'm not discounting the possibility he did just that, but it just doesn't make sense to me.

Just my opinion, I think far too much weight was given to Daily Mail for printing the word “staging” considering the source was RI who never spoke the word in the interview which they quoted. No reliable source has ever indicated it’s believed the crime scene was pre-selected in advance.

 

[photographer4]

I have always wondered how someone standing on the South side of the Creek could spot the bodies behind that elevation. I think the searcher must have been further upstream than I originally thought, maybe also being up higher than at the bottom of the hill by the creek. Since the shoe was found and then right after the bodies spottet, I also wonder if the bodies were visible from where the shoe was found and if so if this was a coincident or intentional.

I've thought way more about that shoe than I should have in recent weeks, and it's just so odd!

-> if the girls were marched across the creek and Libby lost it because it became stuck in the mud (IF it was stuck in mud, I'm not sure it was), then wouldn't the perp allow her to get it and put it back on? Surely yes, because walking without one shoe would be difficult, and he'd have been in a hurry to get on with getting to wherever he was taking them, no?
b) if he refused to allow her to get it, wouldn't that have tipped the girls off to something being amiss, and wouldn't they then have begun screaming and possibly trying to get away? No one heard any screaming that we know of, so what's the deal?

-> Did it come off in a struggle? Why were no screams heard? Were they gagged somehow already or mouths taped??

-> Did libby kick it off herself hoping that her family would see it when they came looking? Did she imagine that maybe search dogs would be out looking for her? Did she know that socks and shoes hold the most scent and leave it for a dog to find to help them find her and AW?

-> Or... did BG take that shoe with him and place it there for some reason? If so, what reason? Was he leaving it as a clue as to where they could be found? He clearly wanted them found, and quickly at that. He knew for sure someone was going to look at the latest by that evening for those kids when they didn't arrive home (if he didn't know that DG was already messaging that he'd arrived).

-> NEW IDEA: I haven't seen this discussed anywhere, so I'm bringing it up as a possibility, however unlikely: could an animal have found that shoe at / near the crime scene and taken it to where it was found?

I think LE know why the shoe was where it was. I think they know if BG took it or if Lib maybe kicked it off, or lost it in a struggle of some sort. I think that shoe and its location might have given them a whole lotta insight into the crime here and the criminal. Probably more than BG bargained for.

 

[photographer4]

I am pretty sure that the searchers that found the girls searched from the north side from the cemetery and arrived in the orange/red pickup truck seen in the cemetery. The first attachment is a frame from the 10:43 mark of the helicopter video that shows the vehicle at the SW corner of the cemetary. If you go down the "path", really it is the path water run off takes to get to the creek you will end up at a location as seen in the second attachment from the WXIN raw footage at the 59 second mark.

One thing that is obvious is that there are paths to both the right (west) and left (east). The one to the left will come around the bottom end of the gravel pit and you will be right at the spot where the photo with RL's dog was taken. As for the path to the right, it is a path that leads from just before the north end of the bridge and ends up here. A WS member (1Nana) had gone to the bridge and taken photos of various areas a few weeks after the murders. Those photos are lost on the early threads but were saved by @No it's not and were put into a PDF. It is well worth seeing all the photos but the ones from page 27 to 29 show photos along the north along the creek with the one on page 29 showing nearly the same exact view as seen in the WXIN raw footage video.

A link to that PDF from my Google drive. Indiana Nana Binder1.pdf

Thank you! I appreciate these being all in one place! In that last photo, when I zoomed in, I was able to see what looks like a person and a smaller person standing behind them (possibly sitting on shoulders?). They're at 12:00 in the top third of the photo or so.

I was also able to make out what *might* be flowers along the middle right side, in pink?

 

[photographer4]

As someone who has never been to the actual location in person, I get the sense from these videos that the crime scene would indeed have been visible from the private drive and house on the south side of the creek. Does anybody know?

If L's tie-dye shirt was visible to a searcher at eye-level (or lower) from across the creek, I'm a little surprised they weren't spotted earlier from the private drive above. I'm not insinuating anything at all, I'm just surprised.

More importantly, imo, is that the crime scene is not nearly as private as I would have guessed.

Agreed! Its more open than I had imagined based on the photos!

 

[stattlich1]

MOO there's no way to look, fix your gaze on a couple deer, then look up across the creek, and see the girls bodies, without being on the south side of the creek.

 

[Jethro4WS]

I zoomed it to try to see and I noticed some areas where bark seems worn off... I considered a few possibilities, but I settled on maybe its from animals rubbing up against the trees? Scratching antlers? Leaving scent? Scratching itch? I don't know, but that is as far as my mind was willing to go in imagining why.

There are beavers in the area. There is evidence of their activity in some other photos and video. Most easily seen is in the WXIN raw footage video I posted a little while back at around the 23 second mark (the view is looking south across the creek which is about 75 feet wide at that point along the creek).

ETA Should just attach a cropped screenshot that shows it

 

[Boxer]

As someone who has never been to the actual location in person, I get the sense from these videos that the crime scene would indeed have been visible from the private drive and house on the south side of the creek. Does anybody know?

If L's tie-dye shirt was visible to a searcher at eye-level (or lower) from across the creek, I'm a little surprised they weren't spotted earlier from the private drive above. I'm not insinuating anything at all, I'm just surprised.

More importantly, imo, is that the crime scene is not nearly as private as I would have guessed.

IIRC The house across the creek was empty at the time, the owners were gone for the winter, as Snowbirds.

 

[Jethro4WS]

Thank you! I appreciate these being all in one place! In that last photo, when I zoomed in, I was able to see what looks like a person and a smaller person standing behind them (possibly sitting on shoulders?). They're at 12:00 in the top third of the photo or so.

I was also able to make out what *might* be flowers along the middle right side, in pink?

Possible. There were a lot of people in the days and weeks after leaving flowers at various places but especially near the north end of the bridge.

 

[FrostedGlass]

Possible. There were a lot of people in the days and weeks after leaving flowers at various places but especially near the north end of the bridge.

In the helicopter flyover, do you put the crime scene beginning a bit east of where the searchers are hanging around that big tree that's partly in the water?

 

[Ekliptika]

DBM, misunderstanding

 

[Ozoner]

I know that the man whose property Abby and Libby were found on was said to have been cleared but it boggles the mind that this man was gone to a dump when they were looking for the girls, when he was nearly off probation and not allowed to drive. Property owner also went drinking another probation violation on that very same day. Something or someone made him break his probation on that very day.

You're assuming that his probation violation was out of the norm for him. He was probably breaking his probation on a daily basis.

 

[carbuff]

IIRC The house across the creek was empty at the time, the owners were gone for the winter, as Snowbirds.

One of the things I've always wondered about is who knew that house was unoccupied, and what that could mean.

 

[OverTheRhine]

One of the things I've always wondered about is who knew that house was unoccupied, and what that could mean.

I brought this up in #131. Some people I've seen, at least on reddit, think this is dumb luck. But this guy clearly came prepared and I believe he had some sort of facial covering or disguise and clearly had a plan. Does that sound like someone who would risk someone seeing him from a clear and obvious house overlooking the crime scene? Someone who's driveway ran close by? It's possible, but I don't see it. I think he knew the occupant was gone and in another state. Whether he knew if someone was looking over the house or not while she is away, is another question. One thing that I've always kept in my mind as well is in the 2019 press conference when Doug Carter said "we have a witness, you made mistakes". Makes me wonder what this witness actually saw and if it may have been during the crime itself.

 

[FrostedGlass]

You're assuming that his probation violation was out of the norm for him. He was probably breaking his probation on a daily basis.

And LE probably turned a blind eye until they didn't.
He paid a steep price for his wrong-doings, unlike many others who get a slap on their hand. I hope we can quit trotting him out.

 

[Jethro4WS]

In the helicopter flyover, do you put the crime scene beginning a bit east of where the searchers are hanging around that big tree that's partly in the water?

It is east, or upstream from there. The east side crime tape is just south of where the creek had rounded the bend from a SSW direction to a NNW direction and the west side starts about 150-200 feet down stream of that. In that video I posted that shows the crime scene area from the south side panning from east to west at the very beginning up and to the right you can see the area where another small creek comes in. I have attached a LIDAR/Topo map with the approximate taped off area in a red rectangle and you can see on it where the other creek comes in from the south upstream of the crime scene.

 

[FrostedGlass]

It is east, or upstream from there. The east side crime tape is just south of where the creek had rounded the bend from a SSW direction to a NNW direction and the west side starts about 150-200 feet down stream of that. In that video I posted that shows the crime scene area from the south side panning from east to west at the very beginning up and to the right you can see the area where another small creek comes in. I have attached a LIDAR/Topo map with the approximate taped off area in a red rectangle and you can see on it where the other creek comes in from the south upstream of the crime scene.

Thank you. It never occurred that it would be a vertical rectangle leaning to the west! I thought the long side would continue east along the stream bank and end up close to the (what I call) a drainage ditch.

 

[swedeheart]

Live call-in:

 

[Peppery]

Just MOO, but maybe because that person is a minor, LE would need parent permission tpo speak with them, and the parent(s) are refusing to give permission?

If the person is still a minor then they would’ve been 13 or younger on the day of the murder. Anyone older would be 18 by now and able to decide for themselves if they want to talk. Imo, that’s not likely.

 

[Luckyzmom]

Thanks to all for wonderful information, @Jethro4WS as always you are amazing, many Thanks. Much to ponder

 

[JnRyan]

I've considered an entry from this direction. The abandoned railroad bed leads around to 200, right between Pine Grove Missionary Baptist Church, and PTI Machining. So I've thought maybe he could have parked at either of those places, and under cover of the treeline, via that abandoned railroad line, made his way to the bridge area, and back out again.

I've considered he may have parked upstream at near where google maps shows the Deer Creek Valley Rural Historic District, as there is a large open area where one could park and be relatively unseen.

I've also considered he may have parked at the pull off at the Old Royster Ford and Carroll County Bridge No. 121.

He could have been picked up at any of the aforementioned areas.

I've also considered that he may have been parked under the bridge, on the private drive, with the intent to get the girls in the vehicle some how, but they ran when they saw what his intent was. I kind of doubt this, as the car would likely have been seen by someone that day.

With all that being said, parking at the rear of that cemetery puts him right smack dab in the area of the CS, bridge, and trails. Easy in, easy out.

MOO

Parking at the cemetery is not high on my list. BUT if you park at the back of the cemetery the vehicle can't be seen from the road by passing vehicles. Given the light traffic the killer could have left when no vehicles were driving by and no one would have known.

Sheriff Leazenby stated in the latest DTH program that they really don't know how the killer exited the CS and general area so just about any theory is open for discussion with regard to the killer's departure.

That brings me to the vehicle at the now demolished CPS building. If LE doesn't know where this killer parked and how he left the area that unknown vehicle may simply be a trail user not accounted for that day and not the killer. That is, another witness, although 4 years later how much would they really remember. Since the vehicle was brought up in April 2019 and almost no mention since, is it possible the driver didn't see or read about the April PC? Or they know but for whatever reason they don't want LE to know they there? Driving when they have a suspended license, for example. (Statute of limitations might have run out on such an offense but coming forward now would be suspicious.)