Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #132

[St. Anthony2017]

Did anyone notice that at the end of the PEOPLE Investigates they did not post the number for the tipline or ask anyone with information about the killer to call the ISP or FBI? I hope this means that they do have a suspect and are about to make an arrest.

 

[St. Anthony2017]

SBM

Or stole a vehicle.

Or had a work vehicle used by multiple shifts.

 

[St. Anthony2017]

SBM

Or stole a vehicle.

Or had a work vehicle used by multiple shifts.

 

[photographer4]

Did anyone notice that at the end of the PEOPLE Investigates they did not post the number for the tipline or ask anyone with information about the killer to call the ISP or FBI? I hope this means that they do have a suspect and are about to make an arrest.

Someone pointed this out to me as well - it seems as though they STOPPED asking for tips / posting that number when they released the second sketch. Not sure how accurate that is, but it seems to be the case for sure with the show you referenced. I think they didn't share the number or ask for tips because they don't want to have to investigate false leads at this point. They know what they need, and they may even know who they need it from.

 

[MistyWaters]

RL was a big part of the posts on this site for quite some time. Interesting, 6 weeks in to the investigation, LE is not certain if one, or more persons were involved in the murders. To date, they have not clarified.

Judge Fouts to Ron Logan, pertaining to RL's DUI's and driving record..... “You’re a danger to this community,” said the judge."

I've always found this comment by RL to be interesting..... “Maybe in the future no one else will be murdered in my backyard,” Logan told Carroll Superior Judge Kurtis Fouts"

I always try hard not to read too much in to it, but fail miserably

Delphi property owner gets nearly four years in jail for traffic charges | Fox 59

I think the stand alone sentence doesn’t place it into context. RL was admonished by the judge for breaking the law, specifically his drinking and driving. His friend claimed the reason he fell off the wagon was because of the stress pertaining to the discovery of the bodies on his property. It appears to me RL is referring to the same excuse with somewhat of a sarcastic retort.

BBM

“When asked about his future, Logan told the judge, “maybe in the future someone won’t be murdered in my back yard.”...”

Tips continue to come in 8 weeks after Delphi double murder | wthr.com

 

[MistyWaters]

Someone pointed this out to me as well - it seems as though they STOPPED asking for tips / posting that number when they released the second sketch. Not sure how accurate that is, but it seems to be the case for sure with the show you referenced. I think they didn't share the number or ask for tips because they don't want to have to investigate false leads at this point. They know what they need, and they may even know who they need it from.

Are you thinking of comments by some of us noticing the lack of emphasis on the 1st sketch during the 2nd anniversary press conference in Feb/19. It was Apr/19 when the 2nd sketch was released.

I don’t recall LE ever stopping the asking for tips and I certainly wouldn’t jump to conclusions based on a People’s show. They’re in the business of entertainment, not public service. Links about how to go about sending in a tip are everywhere.

ISP: Delphi Homicide Investigation

LIBERTY GERMAN — FBI

Contact – Abby and Libby.org

 

[Boxer]

Is there an estimated height for BG?

IIRC
5'6"-5'10"

ABIGAIL WILLIAMS — FBI

 

[Jerrod]

Did anyone notice that at the end of the PEOPLE Investigates they did not post the number for the tipline or ask anyone with information about the killer to call the ISP or FBI? I hope this means that they do have a suspect and are about to make an arrest.

Actually, they did:

 

[:+:MrTT:+:]

Former prosecutor in unsolved Delphi murders of two teens says they had signature elements | Daily Mail Online

This article quoted Ives but also brought up staging. Remembered reading it and thought Ives was talking about staging too.

Thank you for providing the link.
In my post #728 i posted a strange theory. But I knew there was something weird at the site where the girls were found. And according to the link the former prosecutor mentioned...
Former prosecutor in unsolved Delphi rail track murders of two teens says the killer left behind at least three 'signatures' at the 'odd' crime scene which had a 'lot of physical evidence'....I certainly believe that now.

These 3 signatures would be something only the killer would know. Or someone else whom he told. Which I don't believe he has told anyone. I never believed it was simply, .l....Guys down the hill, across the water and then killed them where found. That's to simple. And according to the former prosecutor it looked staged. Which i believe that also.

I Still think they were drowned.//and or the water played a big part in the crime scene in some aspect and then tossed them on the bank. Someone on meth or another simulate would have no trouble drowning two young girls, one girl in each hand as they entered the water. Would certainly had prevented either one from screaming if he killed one at a time. Though one could ague he taped their mouths shut before crossing the water to kill them on the other side. I just don't believe they were killed on the other side, But put there after death.

Those three signatures aka calling cards, tell me the killer is following closely the investigation and probably reliving the killings through updates and chat sites.

I also believe he took items from the girls, to have a physical remembrance of the crime.

This was nothing more than a trill kill. Two instead of one. Double the adrenaline boost he must had been experiencing,.

Killers i read about state, during the killing they enter into a surreal world. Where all there senses are focused on the killing at hand. Things slow down and they sense nothing of the outside world during there killing moments. There was much rage and anger. No one kills in a case like this with joy and happiness. Though I am sure some do.

As we see the possible killer on the bridge. We see he has not much with him to stage a scene. Other than perhaps something in his pouch he was wearing on the front of his pants.

The fact this was done during the daylight hours is brazen,. He did not spend much time there, he did what he wanted and then left through that cemetery.

I dont think this guy is stupid. At one time in hjis life he may had been on the path of being successful at something, but something happened along the way that turned him into what he believed was a failure in life, and lived a simple life, always thinking of what could have been.

Perhaps some college or a trade school, but something beyond high school as far as education.

Probably not married, living alone, not many if any friends like he may have had in the past.

A loner now, possibly a drinker to kill the pain he feels from his failures in life. Probably does go to bars, and hopes to listen to others talk about the murders without him getting involved, especially since there is video of him now.

Those clothes he was wearing im sure have all been destroyed now. Probably burnt never to be retrieved again. He would live in a modest home, nothing fancy or real expensive. Could be a mobile home at a mobile park or private property.

He may have inherited some land through a will, and place a mobile home on it, or inherited a small house but nothing fancy.

I dont think hes a big guy, though looking at him on the bridge one may think that. He was wearing lalyers of clothes i think with baggy pants on. Which made him appear much bigger. He probably wearing a beard now.

Being caught on video has made him lay low for 4 years. THAT in itself may have prevent5ed some one else from being murdered . To close for comfort, plus he got two instead of one. I t5hink hes satisfied wit55h that number.

Do I think he is local, living there in delphi.......NO, I don't. ;BUT...........perhaps within two hours from that place, 100 miles or so in either direction. And probably lives in a mobile home on some private property or his own.

If it had been just one, we probably would still be looking for the person as missing. I think he had a plan to take one away back to his place, but since there were two he just killed them there. Much harder to travel with two young girls, than a single woman or girl.

He definitely left his calling card/cards. Probably caring them in his patch. Which would mean perhaps he planned on not taking them anywhere, one or two, but killing them there and leaving his signature calling cards. Could have been a regular deck of cards, or even tarot cards. I think he did leave something on the bodies only the killer would know.



THE ABOVE ALL MOO AND SPECULATION. NOTHING POSTED AS BEING FACT UNLESS OTHERWISE KNOWN TO BE. All SPECULATION AND ASSUMPTIONS. UNFOUNDED THOERIES. GUESSING ETC.

 

[UnapologeticallyAspie]

SBM

Or stole a vehicle.

Or stole another vehicle’s plates.

 

[news buff]

[


The Daily Mail article, as has been discussed here many times, was not a new interview provided by Ives - neither he not Mary Ellen O'Toole talked to a Daily Mail reporter directly. Instead, like the Daily Mail does many times, it took info from another source - which in this case was the Down The Hill podcast episode where both Ives and O'Toole were featured - and repackaged their quotes.

How do I know this? Ives' words are verbatim from the DTH transcript. Intelligent man though he is, I don't see how he is able to use the exact words in the exact sequence in two separate interviews, and Mary Ellen O'Toole miraculously does the same.

In the DTH interviews from which the DM got their information, Ives does not use the word staging. And though he has talked about signatures in many interviews since, to my knowledge he has not used the word staging.

Maryellen O'Toole, in her DTH interview, was asked by the podcast hosts what is the difference between staging and signatures - and she answered. They are different. Staging normally means that the perpetrator is doing things at the crime scene to mislead the investigation. Signatures are something else. They are things the perpetrator does, almost involuntarily, for his psychological need or pleasure. She also was clear that she herself does not work on the Delphi case or know anything about it other than what the public has read.

The Daily Mail, as many people do, conflated what staging and signatures are.

Just saying where I saw the term staging. Is it not an approved source?

 

[MistyWaters]

Just saying where I saw the term staging. Is it not an approved source?

It’s not a factual source of “staging” occurring if it’s only the reporter summarizing Ive’s comments from the podcast. I notice that sentence isn’t a quote, it appears to be the reporter’s opinion. The question would be, does the reporter know the definition of “signatures” or do they think it only involves physical objects left at the scene as a type of “signed by the killer”? Because signatures and staging are not synonymous at crime scenes.


BBM

Former prosecutor in unsolved Delphi murders of two teens says they had signature elements | Daily Mail Online

'It was just not your normal "a person was killed here" crime scene, that's probably all I can say about it,' Ives said.

Ives said that the scene was 'odd' and displayed at least three 'signatures', which are unique behaviors by the killer.

However, Ives raised the possibility that elements of the scene had been staged in an attempt to trick investigators by sending them down a false path.

 

[Yemelyan]

Thank you for providing the link.
In my post #728 i posted a strange theory. But I knew there was something weird at the site where the girls were found. And according to the link the former prosecutor mentioned...
Former prosecutor in unsolved Delphi rail track murders of two teens says the killer left behind at least three 'signatures' at the 'odd' crime scene which had a 'lot of physical evidence'....I certainly believe that now.

These 3 signatures would be something only the killer would know. Or someone else whom he told. Which I don't believe he has told anyone. I never believed it was simply, .l....Guys down the hill, across the water and then killed them where found. That's to simple. And according to the former prosecutor it looked staged. Which i believe that also.

I Still think they were drowned.//and or the water played a big part in the crime scene in some aspect and then tossed them on the bank. Someone on meth or another simulate would have no trouble drowning two young girls, one girl in each hand as they entered the water. Would certainly had prevented either one from screaming if he killed one at a time. Though one could ague he taped their mouths shut before crossing the water to kill them on the other side. I just don't believe they were killed on the other side, But put there after death.

Those three signatures aka calling cards, tell me the killer is following closely the investigation and probably reliving the killings through updates and chat sites.

I also believe he took items from the girls, to have a physical remembrance of the crime.

This was nothing more than a trill kill. Two instead of one. Double the adrenaline boost he must had been experiencing,.

Killers i read about state, during the killing they enter into a surreal world. Where all there senses are focused on the killing at hand. Things slow down and they sense nothing of the outside world during there killing moments. There was much rage and anger. No one kills in a case like this with joy and happiness. Though I am sure some do.

As we see the possible killer on the bridge. We see he has not much with him to stage a scene. Other than perhaps something in his pouch he was wearing on the front of his pants.

The fact this was done during the daylight hours is brazen,. He did not spend much time there, he did what he wanted and then left through that cemetery.

I dont think this guy is stupid. At one time in hjis life he may had been on the path of being successful at something, but something happened along the way that turned him into what he believed was a failure in life, and lived a simple life, always thinking of what could have been.

Perhaps some college or a trade school, but something beyond high school as far as education.

Probably not married, living alone, not many if any friends like he may have had in the past.

A loner now, possibly a drinker to kill the pain he feels from his failures in life. Probably does go to bars, and hopes to listen to others talk about the murders without him getting involved, especially since there is video of him now.

Those clothes he was wearing im sure have all been destroyed now. Probably burnt never to be retrieved again. He would live in a modest home, nothing fancy or real expensive. Could be a mobile home at a mobile park or private property.

He may have inherited some land through a will, and place a mobile home on it, or inherited a small house but nothing fancy.

I dont think hes a big guy, though looking at him on the bridge one may think that. He was wearing lalyers of clothes i think with baggy pants on. Which made him appear much bigger. He probably wearing a beard now.

Being caught on video has made him lay low for 4 years. THAT in itself may have prevent5ed some one else from being murdered . To close for comfort, plus he got two instead of one. I t5hink hes satisfied wit55h that number.

Do I think he is local, living there in delphi.......NO, I don't. ;BUT...........perhaps within two hours from that place, 100 miles or so in either direction. And probably lives in a mobile home on some private property or his own.

If it had been just one, we probably would still be looking for the person as missing. I think he had a plan to take one away back to his place, but since there were two he just killed them there. Much harder to travel with two young girls, than a single woman or girl.

He definitely left his calling card/cards. Probably caring them in his patch. Which would mean perhaps he planned on not taking them anywhere, one or two, but killing them there and leaving his signature calling cards. Could have been a regular deck of cards, or even tarot cards. I think he did leave something on the bodies only the killer would know.



THE ABOVE ALL MOO AND SPECULATION. NOTHING POSTED AS BEING FACT UNLESS OTHERWISE KNOWN TO BE. All SPECULATION AND ASSUMPTIONS. UNFOUNDED THOERIES. GUESSING ETC.

Bolded by me.

For anyone wondering, signatures are rarely objects. The "calling card" of a serial killer, for example, is probably not going to be an actual card. It is only called by this term because of the tendency of certain offenders to repeatedly act out specific behaviors before, during, or after their crimes that go above and beyond what was necessary to carry out the crime itself.

The signature aspect of a crime almost always refers to offender behaviors, not objects brought to the scene of the crime. The signature has to do with the inner emotional motivations of the offender. In sexually-motivated murders, where signatures are most commonly seen, the behaviors that make up the signature represent the underlying sexual needs of the offender. In fact, almost all signature behavior is sexually linked. The signatures that are seen typically fall into one of these behavioral categories: an offender repeatedly engaging in a specific order of sexual activity; using a specific type of binding; a pattern of similar type injuries; displaying the body for degradation or shock value; torturing and/or mutilating his victim; and engaging in some form of ritualistic behavior (these normally have to do with paraphilias).

As stated repeatedly in the Delphi threads, staging doesn't have anything to do with the presence or absence of signature behavior. As used by criminologists and profilers, staging is when the offender alters the crime scene for the primary purpose of misleading the investigation. Another possible form of staging is directing attention away from the actual offender onto an innocent or unknown person. It doesn't mean "bringing a lot of stuff in a kill kit," "scoping out the scene ahead of time," or "planning what he is going to do."

This is an article that is written in a very accessible fashion and clearly explains the difference between M.O., signature, and staging: Serial Killers: Modus Operandi, Signature, Staging & Posing

From that article: The FBI profiler may also encounter deliberate alterations of the crime scene or the victim’s body position at the scene of the murder. If these alterations are made for the purpose of confusing or otherwise misleading criminal investigators, then they are called staging and they are considered to be part of the killer’s MO. On the other hand, if the crime scene alterations only serve the fantasy needs of the offender, then they are considered part of the signature and they are referred to as posing.

 

[Jerry_Rikshaw]

Those might have been my comments on the camera flashes. I am Wasted Century on YouTube, after my AwsiDooger channel got zapped several years ago due to copyright complaints from the NFL and International Olympic Committee. Dozens of old '80-'88 Olympic videos were perfectly fine on YouTube for more than a decade...until they weren't.

Here is a screen capture I made of a camera flash. That is definitely the bodies location. Far left center of the photo. Note the nearby helicopter banked in that direction:

imgur.com

BTW, easily the best way to approximate the bodies location is to use an overheard view of the bridge and draw a perpendicular line left from the end of the bridge until you reach 50-60 feet beyond the creek. That simple method defeats virtually all of the complex versions.

I think those flashes are just the person who posted the video taking the screenshots.

 

[sunshineray]

I'm going to post some early stuff, all found right here on the WS website. Starting with this little ditty....

"Sources tell Call 6 Investigates that a set of footprints are what led volunteers to the area the bodies were found."

https://www.wrtv.com/news/local-new...-bodies-found-as-missing-carroll-county-teens

So a single set of footprints, spotted by a firefighter-searcher (info from ID show), were found and followed to CS. I'd think, being that they were singular prints (info from your link), they must have been across the creek and made by the killer while leaving the CS. JMO

 

[Ravenmoon]

Bolded by me.

For anyone wondering, signatures are rarely objects. The "calling card" of a serial killer, for example, is probably not going to be an actual card. It is only called by this term because of the tendency of certain offenders to repeatedly act out specific behaviors before, during, or after their crimes that go above and beyond what was necessary to carry out the crime itself.

The signature aspect of a crime almost always refers to offender behaviors, not objects brought to the scene of the crime. The signature has to do with the inner emotional motivations of the offender. In sexually-motivated murders, where signatures are most commonly seen, the behaviors that make up the signature represent the underlying sexual needs of the offender. In fact, almost all signature behavior is sexually linked. The signatures that are seen typically fall into one of these behavioral categories: an offender repeatedly engaging in a specific order of sexual activity; using a specific type of binding; a pattern of similar type injuries; displaying the body for degradation or shock value; torturing and/or mutilating his victim; and engaging in some form of ritualistic behavior (these normally have to do with paraphilias).

As stated repeatedly in the Delphi threads, staging doesn't have anything to do with the presence or absence of signature behavior. As used by criminologists and profilers, staging is when the offender alters the crime scene for the primary purpose of misleading the investigation. Another possible form of staging is directing attention away from the actual offender onto an innocent or unknown person. It doesn't mean "bringing a lot of stuff in a kill kit," "scoping out the scene ahead of time," or "planning what he is going to do."

This is an article that is written in a very accessible fashion and clearly explains the difference between M.O., signature, and staging: Serial Killers: Modus Operandi, Signature, Staging & Posing

From that article: The FBI profiler may also encounter deliberate alterations of the crime scene or the victim’s body position at the scene of the murder. If these alterations are made for the purpose of confusing or otherwise misleading criminal investigators, then they are called staging and they are considered to be part of the killer’s MO. On the other hand, if the crime scene alterations only serve the fantasy needs of the offender, then they are considered part of the signature and they are referred to as posing.

The "signature aspects" of this crime are even more chilling to me now than they were before I read and processed exactly what they mean. I did have an understanding to a degree- but now, I am quite devastated to know that there were at least THREE signatures left here. That is some dark, disturbing information.
While it is obvious that that this person is as low an individual that society can produce- I cannot fathom how someone is so depraved that they can have so many perverse qualities.
Whether this person has killed before- or since is a frequent topic of conversation- I think it is equally important to realize that he WILL hurt someone again. I feel certain that he has a lack of impulse control in that respect now that he has acted out this horrible reality.
For lack of a better term- I feel "woke" knowing that this level of filth walks among unsuspecting people in everyday life.

AMOO JMO MOO
EBM

 

[sunshineray]

Someone pointed this out to me as well - it seems as though they STOPPED asking for tips / posting that number when they released the second sketch. Not sure how accurate that is, but it seems to be the case for sure with the show you referenced. I think they didn't share the number or ask for tips because they don't want to have to investigate false leads at this point. They know what they need, and they may even know who they need it from.

ISP Carter saying the person who knows killer is living in "excruciating fear" for their safety.
That's a very specific and quite strong word to use. He didn't say terrible, great or even horrible fear. Excruciating...like he knows for certain, has seen this person's living hell created by their agonizing fear. Again certain language makes me think the same...they know who it is they need to talk. AJMO

 

[MistyWaters]

ISP Carter saying the person who knows killer is living in "excruciating fear" for their safety.
That's a very specific and quite strong word to use. He didn't say terrible, great or even horrible fear. Excruciating...like he knows for certain, has seen this person's living hell created by their agonizing fear. Again certain language makes me think the same...they know who it is they need to talk. AJMO

Do you know the source of this? I don’t quite get it because if DC, the Superintendent of Indiana State Police, knows a person who knows who the killer is and also is aware that person is living in “excruciating fear”, why is he not offering full protection to that person? IIRC in the past he already committed to doing so.

 

[news buff]

On the topic of what the families have been told and why, I would refer to this conversation between MP and DC in episode 9 of Down the Hill. When MP talks about doing what DC has asked him to do, I think he is referring, at least in part, to staying patient about not knowing certain facts about the crime at this point in time:


MP: We’ve met and we’ve talked a lot, and corresponded back and forth, and we’ve been from one side of the country to the other [Carter interjects “literally”] and we’ve actually become friends. And that’s a good friendship, I do like that and I cherish it. But you’re right. You owe me. You owe me something. [Carter: “Yep.”] But I’m going to work as hard as I can to help you deliver on that, and you know that, and I’ve maintained that position, and I won’t change that position, because we are working to the same goal. I’m not going to stop. Anything that Doug has asked of me, I’ve delivered, or done my best to deliver, and I’ve asked something of him, and he’s working as hard as he can, and his team and supporting it, to make that delivery and one day we will. It’s just a matter of time….Trust me, I want this thing solved yesterday, as bad as anybody, probably more so. But I realize that it takes time. Because there’s really two deliverables here. One is, Doug and his team building up, making a case to make an arrest. Then it goes over the prosecutor, who has to prosecute the case. And we can’t lose sight of that because we’ve got to get it right...

DC: Once the arrest is made, all 50,000 tips are going to be dissected. Every single one of those tips will be dissected, and we’re going to find out if there's any kind of activity. Because if we jeopardize this, we can’t pull it back. It’s easy for the media, or citizens, to say “I think it’s this” and if they’re wrong, it's okay. But if we jeopardize this, we own it.

MP: And I’ll hold people accountable. And that’s why we’re going to get it right. It’s a tough row to hoe, but I entrust in what LE’s doing. So when they call me. Doug will call me - and say, “Mike, we got it.”

This just seems unsettling to me. Objectivity has been tossed aside. And Carter "owes" MP. MP "cherishes" their friendship?

 

[Awsi Dooger]

I don't think all the LE are of the same mind about these sketches. FBI only has the last one on their website. Seems the ISP are the ones considering both, the combination.

That was the point I planned to make. FBI and specifically Georgia FBI were responsible for the change of direction in 2019. Then the presser was butchered so badly by Carter I'm convinced the FBI was irate and implored Indiana to quickly offer the clarifications, including that the older sketch was no longer a person of interest. But Doug Carter doesn't want to go that route and he has steadily persuaded others from ISP to embrace the combo platter.

Otherwise, regarding People Magazine Investigates:

* IMO, you've really got to be a contortionist to watch that program and conclude they have any clue who did it

* Hour program that was wasted to half hour value via all the senseless examination of the non-suspects. I fast forwarded through all of that garbage. Delphi has never had a decent suspect. Why did People Magazine think it had to follow its standard format of traipsing through all of the names? I kept thinking that the wasted time in those segments was symbolic of Delphi case examination in general. Sites like this one and the Reddit subreddit that don't allow doxing offer vastly superior content than ones desperately trying to solve the case by name

* The female hosts were good. The one guy Chris Harris had remarkable propensity to screw up every time reference by 15-40 minutes

* The recreations were very poor and misleading and should have been skipped. I'm referring to the footprints and Libby's shoe. Basically every time the show used a homemade visual it erred. At least they picked some good photos, including the best angle of the crime scene, from just above the shelf

* Most interesting aspects were glimpses of the FBI computer, and Leazenby later emphasizing that local sex offenders were checked first. That's why I've always said that Leazenby thinks first and foremost of the local creeps. He can't imagine Bridge Guy outside that group

* I didn't know Libby tried golf. I was impressed to hear that. I'm not surprised we haven't heard more about it in four years. Tough game. Very easy to embarrass yourself. Skilled athletes who excel in everything else can absolutely butcher the golf swing and give up quickly. That's particularly prevalent among digital generations.

* Someone asked if the theater ramp was homemade. It looked natural to me. But keep in mind I visited during fall with heavy leaf cover. Terrain wasn't easy to decipher.