George Floyd death / Derek Chauvin trial - Sidebar week 3

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Possibly.
However, I have read numerous accounts by both LE and attorneys, claiming that people being arrested, especially prior felons, often behave in a very agitated manner, claiming all sorts of possible ailments or discomforts in an attempt to distract. Not saying that’s the case here, but could explain why the officers acted the way they did.
It shouldn't matter if prior felons often behave in an agitated manner, claiming all sorts of ailments. Any suspect that complains of an injury during an arrest has a right to medical attention.

The procedure is to call for an ambulance when this happens. They did call, but all they reported was an "injury to the mouth." They never mentioned anything about his breathing problems or the fact that he had recently had covid. Not being able to breathe is more serious than an injury to the mouth because it is life threatening. If they had given paramedics accurate information, they may have been better prepared. Meanwhile there is no reason they could not have started CPR before the ambulance got there. Imo
 
I am concerned that the high social issues, emotional nature of the situation may cause the jury to actually go with a higher charge than what Chauvin actually did.

Well, it gives Chauvin his appeal issues. Or conversely, could there be a "sleeper" hold out to acquit Chauvin and go with mistrial?

You never know.

I think if/when he is convicted, it will be an appeal issue. Not sequestering the jury. The judge had no way of knowing something would happen this week, but he did have the chance to sequester them on Monday and denied that request.

I don't know if you could get 12 people to acquit. I would be SHOCKED if they did! Just from reading here... reading elsewhere.... I think it may be really hard to get 12 to agree on 1 charge though.
 
It shouldn't matter if prior felons often behave in an agitated manner, claiming all sorts of ailments. Any suspect that complains of an injury during an arrest has a right to medical attention.

The procedure is to call for an ambulance when this happens. They did call, but all they reported was an "injury to the mouth." They never mentioned anything about his breathing problems or the fact that he had recently had covid. Not being able to breathe is more serious than an injury to the mouth because it is life threatening. If they had given paramedics accurate information, they may have been better prepared. Meanwhile there is no reason they could not have started CPR before the ambulance got there. Imo
Oh! I fully agree with you. Medical attention should have been rendered as soon as GF stopped resisting. I was merely offering an explanation as to why they kept trying to get him into the vehicle and ignored his numerous complaints at the time.

And I do believe the call to upgrade the medical emergency was made shortly after the first call for the mouth injury.
 
I think if/when he is convicted, it will be an appeal issue. Not sequestering the jury. The judge had no way of knowing something would happen this week, but he did have the chance to sequester them on Monday and denied that request.

I don't know if you could get 12 people to acquit. I would be SHOCKED if they did! Just from reading here... reading elsewhere.... I think it may be really hard to get 12 to agree on 1 charge though.

Well, there is no way the folks on the jury are NOT going to be aware of the recent shooting at Brooklyn Park. That, in and of itself, is part of the problem.
 
I find this part of Chauvin's former plea offer interesting. It seems that if he was allowed to serve time in federal prison, he was in danger of being up on federal civil rights charges for his admitted crime.


The deal was contingent on the federal government’s approval because Mr. Chauvin, who had asked to serve his time in a federal prison, wanted assurance he would not face federal civil rights charges.
Why William Barr Rejected a Plea Deal in the George Floyd Killing


It’s a federal crime when a person who is acting under “under color of any law” (that is, under governmental authority or the pretense of authority) violates another person’s civil rights “willfully” (18 U.S.C. § 242). Police brutality or other misconduct may involve several constitutional rights, including:

The penalties under 18 U.S.C. § 242 increase when the crime leads to injury or death, or when it involves kidnapping or dangerous weapons.
When Can Federal Prosecutors Charge Police with Civil Rights Violations?
 
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I hope I'm not going to get crucified for this question... but I'm genuinely curious and am looking to understand more...

When GF said he couldn't breath before he was on the ground, and before he was even in the car....
Do you believe he actually couldn't breath? felt like he couldn't breath? And why do you think that was?
 
I hope I'm not going to get crucified for this question... but I'm genuinely curious and am looking to understand more...

When GF said he couldn't breath before he was on the ground, and before he was even in the car....
Do you believe he actually couldn't breath? felt like he couldn't breath? And why do you think that was?

I think several people here have said that George was exhibiting signs of anxiety ... the same as those posters have felt themselves. A feeling of not being able to breathe being a part of that anxiety.
 
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Oh! I fully agree with you. Medical attention should have been rendered as soon as GF stopped resisting. I was merely offering an explanation as to why they kept trying to get him into the vehicle and ignored his numerous complaints at the time.

And I do believe the call to upgrade the medical emergency was made shortly after the first call for the mouth injury.
Yes, they are not on trial for murder, they are charged with aiding and abetting. So what they thought may not be important in this case but will be a factor in their trial. But yes, they too should have considered trying other methods, such as de-escalation, rather than trying to shove him into the police car.
 
I hope I'm not going to get crucified for this question... but I'm genuinely curious and am looking to understand more...

When GF said he couldn't breath before he was on the ground, and before he was even in the car....
Do you believe he actually couldn't breath? felt like he couldn't breath? And why do you think that was?
I have no reason to believe that he couldn't breathe at that point. All of the testimony in this trial said that GF couldn't breathe because Chauvin had his knee on his neck while in the prone position. JMO
 
I hope I'm not going to get crucified for this question... but I'm genuinely curious and am looking to understand more...

When GF said he couldn't breath before he was on the ground, and before he was even in the car....
Do you believe he actually couldn't breath? felt like he couldn't breath? And why do you think that was?
I believe he could physically breathe. Did he feel like, because of anxiety or drugs or something else, he couldn’t? Maybe. Was he high and being obnoxious? Maybe. I’ve experienced people in every state, acting the exact same way. It should be handled on a case by case basis though. This is why it would have been hard for me to distinguish when he actually couldn’t breathe. Based on his words alone. It’s tough.
 
I think several people here have said that George was exhibiting signs of anxiety ... the same as those posters have felt themselves. A feeling of not being able to breathe being a part of that anxiety.
I have no reason to believe that he couldn't breathe at that point. All of the testimony in this trial said that GF couldn't breathe because Chauvin had his knee on his neck while in the prone position. JMO
I believe he could physically breathe. Did he feel like, because of anxiety or drugs or something else, he couldn’t? Maybe. Was he high and being obnoxious? Maybe. I’ve experienced people in every state, acting the exact same way. It should be handled on a case by case basis though. This is why it would have been hard for me to distinguish when he actually couldn’t breathe. Based on his words alone. It’s tough.

Thank you for answering :) I don't want anyone to be challenged on their answer, I just want to know what everyone thinks/believes based on what we know now.
 
I believe he could physically breathe. Did he feel like, because of anxiety or drugs or something else, he couldn’t? Maybe. Was he high and being obnoxious? Maybe. I’ve experienced people in every state, acting the exact same way. It should be handled on a case by case basis though. This is why it would have been hard for me to distinguish when he actually couldn’t breathe. Based on his words alone. It’s tough.

I would say it was positive to the officers that George couldn't breathe by this point.


“You got one?” Mr. Lane asked. “I can’t find one,” Mr. Kueng said. “Huh?” Mr. Chauvin replied. Mr. Kueng tried again, and again said he could not find a pulse.

More than two minutes then went by, according to timestamps on the transcript of Mr. Kueng’s body camera footage. Still, Mr. Chauvin kept his knee on Mr. Floyd’s neck, videos show.
New Transcripts Detail Last Moments for George Floyd
 
I think several people here have said that George was exhibiting signs of anxiety ... the same as those posters have felt themselves. A feeling of not being able to breathe being a part of that anxiety.
Yes, I think it's important to point out that a police officer cannot tell the difference between truly not being able to breathe and a person who is experiencing anxiety. That's why it is so important to seek immediate medical attention whenever a person says they can't breathe. A nurse, firefighter or police officer should never "assume" the person is faking. Like Dr. Tobin said, a person can be talking one minute but 10 seconds later they could be dead. Imo
 
I am concerned that the high social issues, emotional nature of the situation may cause the jury to actually go with a higher charge than what Chauvin actually did.

Well, it gives Chauvin his appeal issues. Or conversely, could there be a "sleeper" hold out to acquit Chauvin and go with mistrial?

You never know.

I worry about stealth jurors (one way or the other)
 
I would say it was positive to the officers that George couldn't breathe by this point.


“You got one?” Mr. Lane asked. “I can’t find one,” Mr. Kueng said. “Huh?” Mr. Chauvin replied. Mr. Kueng tried again, and again said he could not find a pulse.

More than two minutes then went by, according to timestamps on the transcript of Mr. Kueng’s body camera footage. Still, Mr. Chauvin kept his knee on Mr. Floyd’s neck, videos show.
New Transcripts Detail Last Moments for George Floyd
By what point? He stopped moving? That’d be an indication to me. Did he hear Lane? I don’t know. During those 2 minutes what else was going on? A lot. Why didn’t he roll him over? I don’t know. They’re waiting on the ambulance, why not do something? Why didn’t any of them do anything? I don’t know.

I’m doubtful that it was positive to DC he couldn’t breathe.
 
I hope I'm not going to get crucified for this question... but I'm genuinely curious and am looking to understand more...

When GF said he couldn't breath before he was on the ground, and before he was even in the car....
Do you believe he actually couldn't breath? felt like he couldn't breath? And why do you think that was?

That is one of the reasons I would say “not guilty”. If he really could not breathe at that time, I have a hard time believing it was due to anxiety. It would be interesting to compare his OD symptoms from a few months prior to this episode. His girlfriend said they felt like they were going to die.

all moo.
 
So I wonder if COVID played any role in NOT starting CPR. I doubt it. But this happened kinda early in the pandemic. I know I prolly would not have been to eager to get up close and personal with a stranger, especially knowing medics were on the way.
 
By what point? He stopped moving? That’d be an indication to me. Did he hear Lane? I don’t know. During those 2 minutes what else was going on? A lot. Why didn’t he roll him over? I don’t know. They’re waiting on the ambulance, why not do something? Why didn’t any of them do anything? I don’t know.

I’m doubtful that it was positive to DC he couldn’t breathe.

My point being that if the officers could not find a pulse, George wasn't breathing.
Lane did try to do something, he reminded Chauvin twice to roll George onto his side. And he released his hold on George.
Kueng did do something. He got off George.

Chauvin was essentially sitting there on George's neck all by himself, until the EMTs motioned that he needed to get off.

Funny (not funny) that everyone else knew that Chauvin should get off George's neck, except Chauvin. imo

This is about reasonable doubt, not no doubt at all.
It is not reasonable to doubt that Chauvin should have not stayed on George's neck. A reasonable person would not have done that. And the others got off George, released him. imo
 
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My point being that if the officers could not find a pulse, George wasn't breathing.
Lane did try to do something, he reminded Chauvin twice to roll George onto his side. And he released his hold on George.
Kueng did do something. He got off George.

Lane was essentially sitting there on George's neck all by himself, until the EMTs motioned that he needed to get off.

Funny (not funny) that everyone else knew that Chauvin should get off George's neck, except Chauvin. imo

My feeling is that anyone can find doubt if they are seeking doubt. This is about reasonable doubt, not no doubt at all.
I agree, he should have done more.
 
I believe he could physically breathe. Did he feel like, because of anxiety or drugs or something else, he couldn’t? Maybe. Was he high and being obnoxious? Maybe. I’ve experienced people in every state, acting the exact same way. It should be handled on a case by case basis though. This is why it would have been hard for me to distinguish when he actually couldn’t breathe. Based on his words alone. It’s tough.
I don't think there is anybody that would consider Floyd's behavior as being "high and obnoxious." He immediately asked officer Lane to please not shoot him, he thanked him when he was allowed to sit down, he asked him not to leave him alone, told him he was scared, asked him if he would talk to him, and not once appeared to be aggressive. He thanked them again when they pulled him out of the car and forced him into the prone position.

I don't think it really matters when they determined he "actually couldn't breathe." He had already said so 17 times before being restrained, and the bystanders alerted the officers over and over again, in addition to Floyd's cries for help, while Chauvin continued to kneel on his neck for more than nine minutes.
 
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