George Floyd death / Derek Chauvin trial - Sidebar week 3

[MadMcGoo]

Do we honestly think that he generally worked in silence? Or quiet situations with no/few distractions?
He was trained (40 hours) in crisis intervention. He was likely considered to be the senior officer at the scene. He had been on the force for 19 years.

His attention goes to the task at hand. Like it always should have done.

I’m not saying that at all. Every SINGLE situation would have been different for him. I’m sure he was trained more than most. Meh. That means nothing. His experience likely holds more weight than that. And yes, his attention should have been at the task at hand. But in this case, he had several tasks in my opinion. His attention was divided, no doubt.

 

[Tom_Servo]

If I had been driving by this incident, seeing three police officers physically restraining someone on the ground with knees on his back and neck, the last thing I'd think the person was being detained for would be passing a fake 20 dollar bill that they may not have even been aware of. I'd be thinking an armed robbery or another type of violent crime against a person had just occurred. The escalation is just mind blowing to me.

Resisting arrest is why he ended up being detained like he was.

 

[ACE422]

I have no reason to believe that he couldn't breathe at that point. All of the testimony in this trial said that GF couldn't breathe because Chauvin had his knee on his neck while in the prone position. JMO

I’ve seen patients with Covid say “I can’t breathe” when they were breathing. I’ve seen people with anxiety/claustrophobia say “I can’t breathe” when they were breathing. People experiencing an asthma attack, allergic reaction, heart problems. The fact that they were breathing at that time they made the statements did not mean they were not in need of medical attention for their reported difficulty breathing. I certainly did not restrain those individuals in a manner that would further restrict their ability to breathe. MOO

 

[MadMcGoo]

Edited to removed quoted post.

Resisting arrest is why he ended up being detained like he was.

I agree. Had he not acted in the manner he did, he likely wouldn’t have been arrested. HE escalated the situation. IMO

 

[Tom_Servo]

LE was responsible for GF and they were arresting him. LE can't let someone off the street who "says" they are a firefighter have access to him. For her protection and his.

I realize LE wasn't helping him, but hopefully my point is clear.

It's clear to me and I don't understand the analogies comparing GF's situation with proximate professionals called upon in an emergency. This situation has little resemblance to that.

 

[MsBetsy]

You’ve listed 6-7 people, at least, screaming orders at me. I heard quite a bit of traffic. How much confidence do I put into these new (to me) officers?

Who else besides the firefighter and Williams were pleading with them? The old man? The rest were kids. I didn't hear anybody screaming. Their voices were getting higher and louder as they became more urgent because they could see Floyd was dying. I only heard two people telling the officers "He's not breathing, he's not responsive, he's not moving." That's not shouting orders to me. The only thing they told them to do was to check his pulse. Which Chauvin refused to do. The only reason Williams started calling him a bum is because he didn't respond or move the whole time.

In the video from across the street it didn't seem busy at all. I didn't see many cars go by while they were there.

 

[MadMcGoo]

Who else besides the firefighter and Williams were pleading with them? The old man? The rest were kids. I didn't hear anybody screaming. Their voices were getting higher and louder as they became more urgent because they could see Floyd was dying. I only heard two people telling the officers "He's not breathing, he's not responsive, he's not moving." That's not shouting orders to me. The only thing they told them to do was to check his pulse. Which Chauvin refused to do. The only reason Williams started calling him a bum is because he didn't respond or move the whole time.

In the video from across the street it didn't seem busy at all. I didn't see many cars go by while they were there.

I guess this is a testament to the point I’m getting at. I heard traffic and I heard yelling. I heard several people telling me something.

Kids or adults. I’ve seen both be extremely violent. For seemingly no reason.

Williams would have been dismissed, IMO, because he’d been barking orders for awhile.

 

[ACE422]

I have no reason to believe that he couldn't breathe at that point. All of the testimony in this trial said that GF couldn't breathe because Chauvin had his knee on his neck while in the prone position. JMO

I’ve seen patients with Covid say “I can’t breathe” when they were breathing. I’ve seen people with anxiety/claustrophobia say “I can’t breathe” when they were breathing. People experiencing an asthma attack, allergic reaction, heart problems. The fact that they were breathing at that time they made the statements did not mean they were not in need of medical attention for their reported difficulty breathing. I certainly did not restrain those individuals in a manner that would further restrict their ability to breathe. MOO

So I wonder if COVID played any role in NOT starting CPR. I doubt it. But this happened kinda early in the pandemic. I know I prolly would not have been to eager to get up close and personal with a stranger, especially knowing medics were on the way.

We train to only perform chest compressions if someone if positive or symptomatic. Or if someone just doesn’t feel comfortable doing mouth to mouth or has no breathing barrier available. Doing something is better than doing nothing. There is oxygen in the blood, so compressions would at least circulate oxygen to organs via the blood. MOO

 

[Wild Rose]

DC had plenty of opportunity to address each thing going on around him. Most people involved in jobs rendering aid love the multitasking, the busy side of life, jumping in the middle of excitement because it is never a boring job!

 

[missy1974]

Who else besides the firefighter and Williams were pleading with them? The old man? The rest were kids. I didn't hear anybody screaming. Their voices were getting higher and louder as they became more urgent because they could see Floyd was dying. I only heard two people telling the officers "He's not breathing, he's not responsive, he's not moving." That's not shouting orders to me. The only thing they told them to do was to check his pulse. Which Chauvin refused to do. The only reason Williams started calling him a bum is because he didn't respond or move the whole time.

In the video from across the street it didn't seem busy at all. I didn't see many cars go by while they were there.

I don't think anyone is arguing that what they were saying was unreasonable or unwarranted, but that it was just another added distraction/source of a perceived threat.

One note about the off duty FF... IIRC her first interaction with them was when she came up behind them, she put them on edge immediately. IMO

MsBetsy... I didn't think there was much traffic either until we saw Chang's body cam the other day. I don't think we watched the whole video from across the street? But the side street where Chang was, there was traffic and at times really loud vehicles. I was annoyed cuz I couldn't hear what was being said at times. JMO

 

[MsBetsy]

Maybe due to the lethal dose of fentanyl he had in him? He was buzzed IMO. Even the cashier CM stated he knew he was high on something. IMO

Yes, he wouldn't be going through withdrawal if he was buzzed. There is no evidence he had taken a lethal dose of fentanyl, though. In fact the toxicologist testified that the amount of norfentanyl in his blood was not consistent with an overdose.

 

[CrimeAway]

@mom2chloe for some reason the quote feature isn't working for me

No, I wasn't referring to Ms. Ross.

She was a very compelling witness, and her love of Mr Floyd was very evident, IMO. I wish her the very best, and I hope that she is getting the support that she needs and deserves.

Watching the "intervention" tv series, showed me how so often addiction develops out of trauma and huge difficulties in a person's life. It is a sad reflection, IMO, that there isn't enough help for those who are struggling, and the criminal justice system has become the default mental health provider. MOO.

I can see how easy it could be to fall into the grip of addiction, especially without a strong support system.

 

[Wild Rose]

Also the totally weird thing about this case that bothers me is the brotherhood aspect is missing and I mean brotherhood in every good sense of the word. I would see a wild argument at a meeting, an alarm would go off, and never once were they anything but utterly respectful to each other on the call.

 

[Leve]

Resisting arrest is why he ended up being detained like he was.

And, IMO, the reason for detaining him wasn't because of the fake $20 but because he was behind the wheel and obviously under the influence of something.

GF furthered escalated it by refusing to or being unable to (due to panic or drugs) cooperate.

 

[BayouBelle_LA]

Every use of force expert for the state, agreed with Nelson that subjects sometimes fake injury or illness to evade arrest. They say things like I can’t breathe, I’m having a heart attack, etc. This leads me to believe that it happens quite often.

As they are attempting to put GF in the car he says “I don’t want to go back”. I presume that means he doesn’t want to go back to jail. That is why he was resisting. IMO. So when he says “I can’t breathe” - do the officers make an assumption that he’s trying to avoid being arrested. Just some thoughts, speculation and my opinion.

 

[magnolia]

That's true. So perhaps we also have no idea what he thought about allowing the off-duty firefighter to assist?

I can say with certainty that police officers in general are constantly on alert for people that might pose a threat.

 

[MsBetsy]

I don't think anyone is arguing that what they were saying was unreasonable or unwarranted, but that it was just another added distraction/source of a perceived threat.

One note about the off duty FF... IIRC her first interaction with them was when she came up behind them, she put them on edge immediately. IMO

MsBetsy... I didn't think there was much traffic either until we saw Chang's body cam the other day. I don't think we watched the whole video from across the street? But the side street where Chang was, there was traffic and at times really loud vehicles. I was annoyed cuz I couldn't hear what was being said at times. JMO

Yes, I know no one is saying they were being unreasonable, but I did not see the crowd as a threat or a distraction. I thought it was obvious that they were just concerned. If the officers had just put Floyd in the recovery position five minutes earlier, do you think they would have started getting louder or become so upset?

And yes, that was the video I was referring to. I thought it seemed very quiet and non eventful for a city street. But then again I've never been to Minneapolis.

 

[Tippy Lynn]

Yes, I know no one is saying they were being unreasonable, but I did not see the crowd as a threat or a distraction. I thought it was obvious that they were just concerned. If the officers had just put Floyd in the recovery position five minutes earlier, do you think they would have started getting louder or become so upset?

And yes, that was the video I was referring to. I thought it seemed very quiet and non eventful for a city street. But then again I've never been to Minneapolis.

The problem I see with the crowd is that it could have turned into a threat within a matter of seconds.

 

[MadMcGoo]

I believe the crowd was definitely a distraction and potentially a threat. Especially as time went on.

If they’d have put him into the recovery position sooner, we might not be having this conversation. That would mean he would have stopped resisting though.

 

[BoyThatsWeird]

On a "lighter" hypothetical. You're wrongfully charged with murder. Which of the attorneys in this case would you hire to be your defense? I know defense/presecutors are trained differently, but who has given you the impression that they're the best lawyer in this court room? For me, I'd hire Schleicher with Nelson being a close second. I hope this doesn't violate WS rules...was just something I kept thinking as I've watched the entire trial.