George Floyd death / Derek Chauvin trial - Sidebar week 3

[MsBetsy]

(I can’t quote properly for some reason) And I respectfully disagree. I felt most, if not all, of his movements were resistance.

I think anyone in that situation would have done whatever they could to breathe. It's an automatic response to try to get air into the lungs. Even someone without anxiety would have been in a panicked state. Imo

 

[branmuffin]

Resisting arrest is why he ended up being detained like he was.

Would you always arrest someone for passing a 20 dollar bill even though it doesnt appear it was kept as evidence? For such a minor charge why wouldn't he just be written up and have to appear before a judge? LE rarely come to break ins any more. You could wait days for them to come.

 

[Mony Mony]

Good question... lol I started to answer... and then realized... if you can't even decipher what the cause of death was, can you 'without a doubt' contribute that death to Chauvin? I'm not sure.

The 98% blood oxygen levels... I think the State may have made a misstep on that one. I think it left a lot of unanswered questions. I am not sure why they didn't get Tobin to explain more.

What is it about the 98% oxygen that you think may have been a misstep? TIA.

 

[MsBetsy]

He appeared to be under the influence of drugs according to the store clerk Christopher Martin.

Right. He told the 911 dispatcher he appeared "drunk" and was acting weird. Police had this information from the start, which is another reason he should never have been put in the prone position. If he had been drinking alcohol it would have been just as dangerous. Imo

 

[mickey2942]

Chauvin really had no one. The defense seemed pretty skimpy compared to the plethora of folks for the prosecution. And really did not create any reasonable doubt for me.

 

[Niner]

Are they expected to see a trial? I haven’t seen much about them.

Their last hearing date was on 1/7/21 & trial is set to begin on 8/23/21.

And here are their charges:
charged with aiding & abetting 2nd degree murder-unintentional-while committing a felony & aiding & abetting 2nd degree manslaughter-culpable negligence creating unreasonable risk.

Hi, quick question, very behind, how many days did the prosecution present, and how many days did the defense present? Tia.

per my notes:
Trial started on 3/29/21. The State rested their case on 4/13/21 & had 38 witnesses. Defense started their case on 4/13/21 & rested their case on 4/15/21 & 7 witnesses.

Oops - I see dixiegirl beat me to it....

 

[RANCH]

I’ve seen patients with Covid say “I can’t breathe” when they were breathing. I’ve seen people with anxiety/claustrophobia say “I can’t breathe” when they were breathing. People experiencing an asthma attack, allergic reaction, heart problems. The fact that they were breathing at that time they made the statements did not mean they were not in need of medical attention for their reported difficulty breathing. I certainly did not restrain those individuals in a manner that would further restrict their ability to breathe. MOO

So GF could have been suffering from a medical problem and the drugs he took may exacerbated that problem which lead to his death. JMO

 

[missy1974]

What is it about the 98% oxygen that you think may have been a misstep? TIA.

Good morning everyone!

I think that Blackwell was soooo nervous about what the doc would say, and making sure that there wasn't a mistrial, that he missed the opportunity to have Dr. Tobin explain it better.

He ended it with a Doctor saying that GF had 95% oxygen saturation. The same doctor that said he died from hypoxia.

I didn't see it so much here... but go outside of WS's and a lot of people have a lot of questions about that (valid or not).

 

[MsBetsy]

Minneapolis changed police policy and procedures after Justine Damond's murder. Apparently, that hasn't helped some officers to readjust their way of thinking and acting.

But I can see by Lane & Kueng's efforts that revised procedures may be helping the newer officers.

And I do agree that patrol officers in the US are faced with the daily possibility of their own death.
Which is why Thao was standing guard, and the park police officer was also watching what was going on as best he could.

I think Thao did a good job standing guard and watching the bystanders. He said he never noticed Floyd was in distress or that he had stopped breathing so he must have been focusing all of his attention on them. I heard him tell them to get back two times and each time they did. That was around the time Chauvin threatened them with mace. It appeared to me they had the situation under control.

 

[Mony Mony]

. RSBM...
I went looking to see if a police officer is required by law to render medical aid and came across this paper (which focused more on shootings, but still addresses force causing harm and when or if police are required to render aid)

https://kb.osu.edu/bitstream/handle/1811/92251/1/OSJCL_V18N1_391.pdf

Although the Supreme Court has held that suspects who suffer an injury during arrest should receive “the needed medical treatment,”47 the Court has so far not defined what constitutes treatment and who is obligated to provide it. The Court has also refused to consider the issue of whether an officer violates the Constitution by failing to provide first aid to an individual whom they have shot.48 Several lower courts, however, have considered the issue and have typically resolved the issue in favor of the officers who failed to render any first aid after a police-involved shooting

I was looking for info on this last night! I am glad you posted this.

 

[missy1974]

I was looking for info on this last night! I am glad you posted this.

Are you as surprised as I was??? LOL

There is nothing in the proposed jury instructions (hopefully we will get final one's today) that addresses this. So I am a bit confused.

 

[MsBetsy]

Good morning everyone!

I think that Blackwell was soooo nervous about what the doc would say, and making sure that there wasn't a mistrial, that he missed the opportunity to have Dr. Tobin explain it better.

He ended it with a Doctor saying that GF had 95% oxygen saturation. The same doctor that said he died from hypoxia.

I didn't see it so much here... but go outside of WS's and a lot of people have a lot of questions about that (valid or not).

I think the reason he had oxygen in his blood was because he had continuous CPR for almost 45 minutes. The reason for doing CPR is to keep oxygen flowing in and out of the lungs and to keep oxygenated blood flowing throughout the body. Paramedics and the doctors did not give up for 45 minutes after Floyd was flatlined.

As the paramedic said, CPR could have been started immediately and even Dr. Fowler admitted CPR should have been started once Floyd stopped breathing and was unresponsive. That was about 5 or 6 minutes before Lane was able to start CPR. IMO

 

[turaj]

I got to thinking.....it would be in my mind as a juror that not one police officer was called to the stand to in any way speak to the impact of a "crowd" on the actions they take or in some way defend the knee pressure etc. Not one would come forward for the defense. Usually you have the "blue wall" and they stick together...here you have the Chief come to the stand and stand unconditionally this was excessive force. I know in voir dire they were a few that seemed to have very high opinions of police in general...some even with relatives that are police officers but I have to think absent some sort of stealth juror the first vote in there on Manslaughter will be an easy one...maybe even the 3rd degree but where we might lose some is 2nd degree. Interested to hear the final jury instructions....hoping they are in some way simplified for the jury so all can clearly understand. Often that is not the case.

 

[missy1974]

I think the reason he had oxygen in his blood was because he had continuous CPR for almost 45 minutes. The reason for doing CPR is to keep oxygen flowing in and out of the lungs and to keep oxygenated blood flowing throughout the body. Paramedics and the doctors did not give up for 45 minutes after Floyd was flatlined.

As the paramedic said, CPR should have been started immediately and even Dr. Fowler admitted CPR should have been started once Floyd stopped breathing and was unresponsive. That was about 5 or 6 minutes before Lane was able to start CPR. IMO

To be clear, I am not questioning it, but after seeing the confusion elsewhere (and I'm not talking about just a few people), this should have been explained to the jury IMO

 

[Mony Mony]

Somebody upthread mentioned radio traffic as a possible distraction. Do we know if GFs past criminal history was conveyed to DC over the radio? I think Chung is the one who ran his name through the system. Curious as to what info came back.

 

[bluebird69]

I got to thinking.....it would be in my mind as a juror that not one police officer was called to the stand to in any way speak to the impact of a "crowd" on the actions they take or in some way defend the knee pressure etc. Not one would come forward for the defense. Usually you have the "blue wall" and they stick together...here you have the Chief come to the stand and stand unconditionally this was excessive force. I know in voir dire they were a few that seemed to have very high opinions of police in general...some even with relatives that are police officers but I have to think absent some sort of stealth juror the first vote in there on Manslaughter will be an easy one...maybe even the 3rd degree but where we might lose some is 2nd degree. Interested to hear the final jury instructions....hoping they are in some way simplified for the jury so all can clearly understand. Often that is not the case.

Possible fear for there own careers? Fairly common with whistleblowers to be ostracised. Okay I know it's not the same but I did not expect a queue of volunteers for the defense JMO

 

[Inthedetails]

He had the same symptoms as he had just two months prior, when he was hospitalized for 5 days from a drug overdose. IMO

snipped

And he survived the episode two months prior. In the previous instance, he got medical treatment and didn't have a grown man on top of him. Same symptoms, perhaps, but not the same scenario.

jmo

 

[Mony Mony]

I got to thinking.....it would be in my mind as a juror that not one police officer was called to the stand to in any way speak to the impact of a "crowd" on the actions they take or in some way defend the knee pressure etc. Not one would come forward for the defense. Usually you have the "blue wall" and they stick together...here you have the Chief come to the stand and stand unconditionally this was excessive force. I know in voir dire they were a few that seemed to have very high opinions of police in general...some even with relatives that are police officers but I have to think absent some sort of stealth juror the first vote in there on Manslaughter will be an easy one...maybe even the 3rd degree but where we might lose some is 2nd degree. Interested to hear the final jury instructions....hoping they are in some way simplified for the jury so all can clearly understand. Often that is not the case.

Honestly, I am not surprised. This case is such high profile and you saw all the protesting, rioting, etc that it brought. Anyone that would come to the defense of DC would do so at their own peril. Even many of the potential jurors expressed concern over their own safety.
MOO.

 

[RANCH]

snipped

And he survived the episode two months prior. In the previous instance, he got medical treatment and didn't have a grown man on top of him. Same symptoms, perhaps, but not the same scenario.

jmo

Yes there's that. But that make's me think of Chauvin's previous use of the prone neck restraint that lasted much longer and the suspect didn't die.

Prosecutors say Chauvin kept his knee on teenager’s back for 17 minutes in 2017, while the boy said ‘I can’t breathe’

Then Chauvin said he “applied a neck restraint,” rolled the boy onto his stomach and grabbed his wrist to cuff it while using his body weight to pin the boy to the floor, while the victim yelled at the officers.

Prosecutors say Chauvin kept his knee on teenager’s back for 17 minutes in 2017, while the boy said ‘I can’t breathe’ - Minnesota Reformer

 

[RANCH]

To be clear, I am not questioning it, but after seeing the confusion elsewhere (and I'm not talking about just a few people), this should have been explained to the jury IMO

So the CPR could have raised the o2 levels in GF's blood. Wouldn't that also affect the carbon monoxide levels in his blood? JMO