Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #132

[sunshineray]

Deleted by me, double post

 

[sunshineray]

not very clear, but its there.
photos of face taken from a 54 second video

I'm sorry I must have missed it. What are these?

 

[Yemelyan]

I don't think the local LE gave enough weigh that night to what the Patty's were telling them about Libby. BP very quickly knew, when DG called her and said LG wasn't answering her phone, that something was amiss. She tried LG's phone numerous times and then called her husband at work, who left immediately to come search at trails. BP stated not answering her phone was something Libby would never do, that she was very responsible about that.

As far as the bridge being a dangerous spot at night, in the dark, they'd just need to post an officer at each end. The rest of the searching could have continued with spot lights (hand held or generated even by vehicles parked) and led by professionals. AJMO

We know now it wouldn't have helped because the girls were already gone but that was unknown then. I can't imagine the desolation the family members felt being told LE was officially calling off their help overnight.

Agreed about LE not taking everything into account. IMO they felt the weight of their experience showed that missing people in their county eventually turn up. I don't think this decision was made just by one person, however, it shared by a few that were in charge.

Not sure about the feasibility of lighting the bridge area/posting police to keep people off (Delphi didn't have many first responders) but that was just one of many perceived dangers to searchers. There's also the creek, steep hills etc. If they let a few hundred people continue all night I'm not sure first responders would have had a handle on the situation. Again - not saying they made a perfect decision, just that these were factors.

And, as pointed out, finding the crime scene in the dark and fog in the early morning hours is unlikely to make much difference from finding it around noon, from the point of evidence recovery.

 

[Boxer]

Agreed about LE not taking everything into account. IMO they felt the weight of their experience showed that missing people in their county eventually turn up. I don't think this decision was made just by one person, however, it shared by a few that were in charge.

Not sure about the feasibility of lighting the bridge area/posting police to keep people off (Delphi didn't have many first responders) but that was just one of many perceived dangers to searchers. There's also the creek, steep hills etc. If they let a few hundred people continue all night I'm not sure first responders would have had a handle on the situation. Again - not saying they made a perfect decision, just that these were factors.

And, as pointed out, finding the crime scene in the dark and fog in the early morning hours is unlikely to make much difference from finding it around noon, from the point of evidence recovery.

MOO the sheriff was tired and hungry and called the official search off. I believe he thought they would show up having been with friends or etc.

 

[sandy_80]

Agreed about LE not taking everything into account. IMO they felt the weight of their experience showed that missing people in their county eventually turn up. I don't think this decision was made just by one person, however, it shared by a few that were in charge.

Not sure about the feasibility of lighting the bridge area/posting police to keep people off (Delphi didn't have many first responders) but that was just one of many perceived dangers to searchers. There's also the creek, steep hills etc. If they let a few hundred people continue all night I'm not sure first responders would have had a handle on the situation. Again - not saying they made a perfect decision, just that these were factors.

And, as pointed out, finding the crime scene in the dark and fog in the early morning hours is unlikely to make much difference from finding it around noon, from the point of evidence recovery.

I dont agree .. the murder scene might have easily been contaminated by then by human or non human elements as well as evidence collecting

 

[StarryStarryNight]

LE calling off the search has never made any sense to me. I do think they were trying way too hard to hammer this square hole situation and these two particular girls into their round hole experience with missing teenagers. If they had listened to the families they would have known these girls were not the type that run off. Yes, I know, the families made statements regarding maybe they had gone here or there but I think that was 1) wishful thinking and 2) LE trying to convince them that’s what happened.
The thing that bugs me the most is LE walked away knowing these children were lightly dressed on a very cold February night. They headed home to their warm houses and cozy beds. LE gets no gold stars from me for this. They get no pats on the back and “it was a safety issue” from me. Their being there wouldn’t have saved the girls but who leaves two young girls to freeze. The girls’ families and friends didn’t. LE did.

 

[MistyWaters]

LE calling off the search has never made any sense to me. I do think they were trying way too hard to hammer this square hole situation and these two particular girls into their round hole experience with missing teenagers. If they had listened to the families they would have known these girls were not the type that run off. Yes, I know, the families made statements regarding maybe they had gone here or there but I think that was 1) wishful thinking and 2) LE trying to convince them that’s what happened.
The thing that bugs me the most is LE walked away knowing these children were lightly dressed on a very cold February night. They headed home to their warm houses and cozy beds. LE gets no gold stars from me for this. They get no pats on the back and “it was a safety issue” from me. Their being there wouldn’t have saved the girls but who leaves two young girls to freeze. The girls’ families and friends didn’t. LE did.

I thought the extent of the search was quite remarkable that evening, albeit it was called off at midnight. It’s not as if LE totally flipped off the family, iirc when MP asked about cellphone tracking it was LE who suggested he file a missing persons report at 5:30pm. By the descriptions 100s of people helped out, searching through the town as well. Nobody could’ve possibly predicted murder so close to where they were last seen. The two young girls were not left to freeze, by then people had searched, calling out their names from 5:30pm to midnight.

We don’t even know how visible the bodies were, day or night. It seems criticism of the official search being called off intermingles with discussion about possible contamination of the crime scene. Easy to levy criticism in judgement at others. It gives the perception nobody cared but by all accounts that’s totally opposite to the facts. Even the family has consistently defended and justified the actions of that night although it must be hurtful for them to have to do so.

JMO

 

[Boxer]

Well hopefully they are inching forward through every potential lead.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

I thought the extent of the search was quite remarkable that evening, albeit it was called off at midnight. It’s not as if LE totally flipped off the family, iirc when MP asked about cellphone tracking it was LE who suggested he file a missing persons report at 5:30pm. By the descriptions 100s of people helped out, searching through the town as well. Nobody could’ve possibly predicted murder so close to where they were last seen. The two young girls were not left to freeze, by then people had searched, calling out their names from 5:30pm to midnight.

We don’t even know how visible the bodies were, day or night. It seems criticism of the official search being called off intermingles with discussion about possible contamination of the crime scene. Easy to levy criticism in judgement at others. It gives the perception nobody cared but by all accounts that’s totally opposite to the facts. Even the family has consistently defended and justified the actions of that night although it must be hurtful for them to have to do so.

JMO

I completely agree with you. Tons of people were trying to help and LE is included. A huge effort by the community.
I commented that my biggest problem was that LE left knowing the girls were not dressed for the cold and I just don’t understand this. That’s just my thoughts on it but there are plenty of other opinions too, which I respect.

 

[TL4S]

I thought the extent of the search was quite remarkable that evening, albeit it was called off at midnight. It’s not as if LE totally flipped off the family, iirc when MP asked about cellphone tracking it was LE who suggested he file a missing persons report at 5:30pm. By the descriptions 100s of people helped out, searching through the town as well. Nobody could’ve possibly predicted murder so close to where they were last seen. The two young girls were not left to freeze, by then people had searched, calling out their names from 5:30pm to midnight.

We don’t even know how visible the bodies were, day or night. It seems criticism of the official search being called off intermingles with discussion about possible contamination of the crime scene. Easy to levy criticism in judgement at others. It gives the perception nobody cared but by all accounts that’s totally opposite to the facts. Even the family has consistently defended and justified the actions of that night although it must be hurtful for them to have to do so.

JMO

One positive aspect in regards to the search is that it seems the final crime scene was not contaminated.

Mom of one of two Delphi murder victims criticizes police | Daily Mail Online
Indiana Police Superintendent Doug Carter, however, says he doesn't believe the crime scene was tainted.

He described the number of volunteers as 'awesome' and that while the end result 'wasn't good there was nothing compromised by what they did'.

 

[Yemelyan]

I dont agree .. the murder scene might have easily been contaminated by then by human or non human elements as well as evidence collecting

I confess I'm not one of those who understand the crime scene contamination angle. I don't think anyone's suggesting that searchers walked that night within feet of the victims without seeing them there. If someone drank from a plastic water bottle and tossed it away on the trail, or relieved themselves in the woods, as long as they weren't within feet or inches of the bodies, I don't see how this contaminated the crime scene.

Evidence collection always has to wait until crime scene techs arrive anyway. In this case, they waited for the FBI and ISP evidence teams. There is always going to be a delay between the discovery of a victim and biological evidence recovery IMO. Obviously an outdoor crime scene isn't ideal for this under any circumstances. The best scenario would have been finding them before dark on the 13th, but it wasn't in the cards.

 

[MistyWaters]

I completely agree with you. Tons of people were trying to help and LE is included. A huge effort by the community.
I commented that my biggest problem was that LE left knowing the girls were not dressed for the cold and I just don’t understand this. That’s just my thoughts on it but there are plenty of other opinions too, which I respect.

I’m certain any parent of teens at one time recalls at least one instance when their child’s actions was totally unexpected and unpredictable.

Now we tend to only focus on the search near the bridge where the bodies were found, in hindsight....but the trail was within walking distance to town and the drop off location (later closed) was said to be a hangout. So there had to be umpteen other possibilities considered involving the girls leaving the bridge area either on their own or in the company of others prior to Libby’s dad arriving to pick them up.

As an example -

“[Family called from Delphi to see if Libby had come to Flora and if we had seen her' he said. 'The first thing on our minds was that she might have ran away, maybe she was trying to get to her mom's [in Kentucky].”
Grandfather of one of murdered Indiana teens speaks out | Daily Mail Online

 

[sandy_80]

I confess I'm not one of those who understand the crime scene contamination angle. I don't think anyone's suggesting that searchers walked that night within feet of the victims without seeing them there. If someone drank from a plastic water bottle and tossed it away on the trail, or relieved themselves in the woods, as long as they weren't within feet or inches of the bodies, I don't see how this contaminated the crime scene.

Evidence collection always has to wait until crime scene techs arrive anyway. In this case, they waited for the FBI and ISP evidence teams. There is always going to be a delay between the discovery of a victim and biological evidence recovery IMO. Obviously an outdoor crime scene isn't ideal for this under any circumstances. The best scenario would have been finding them before dark on the 13th, but it wasn't in the cards.

it doesn't have to be the searchers..some freak might have stumbled upon the scene for ex and collected something from the scene...
animals is a more likely source of contamination since we heard about deers already

 

[MistyWaters]

As a parent, my worst fear would be the two teens had gotten together with older kids and alcohol and/or drugs were involved - no matter how well behaved a teen, the reality is teens can get caught up in the lure of experimenting and hanging out with the wrong crowd. And while I’d be frantic with worry because the girls didn’t come home that night, I’d be prepared to feel anger while hiding my huge relief when they came slinking home the next morning, all sheepish and apologetic. That’s how parenting teenagers goes, topped with a mixture of emotions and various responses.

But if I was in the shoes of this family, I certainly would never express those sort of fears to the media because it’s really none of the general public’s business what possibilities crossed their minds. It’s every parent’s worst nightmare, that their children become the victims of foul play.

 

[Yemelyan]

it doesn't have to be the searchers..some freak might have stumbled upon the scene for ex and collected something from the scene...
animals is a more likely source of contamination since we heard about deers already

JMO but the types of things animals can or might do to human remains have been studied often, are well-understood by those who work crime scenes and would not be confused with human action.

I really can't speak to your other scenario. In the realm of possibility I guess.

 

[Justice101]

Following.,...

 

[MistyWaters]

JMO but the types of things animals can or might do to human remains have been studied often, are well-understood by those who work crime scenes and would not be confused with human action.

I really can't speak to your other scenario. In the realm of possibility I guess.

Even if the bodies had been found within minutes, I’d think contamination of an outdoor crime scene can occur through other natural causes as well. During the two or so weeks the crime scene was being processed the temperature would not be constant (also known to have an effect on DNA), shifting winds can scatter leaves possibly concealing evidence, maybe it rained as well and the creek in constant motion can wash away or wash in items. That’s much different than an indoor crime scene where it can be protected from any change whatsoever.

While I don’t have a link I recall reading that homicides committed outdoors are often the most challenging to solve, for reasons such as that. It makes sense to me.

 

[Yemelyan]

Even if the bodies had been found within minutes, I’d think contamination of an outdoor crime scene can occur through other natural causes as well. During the two or so weeks the crime scene was being processed the temperature would not be constant (also known to have an effect on DNA), shifting winds can scatter leaves possibly concealing evidence, maybe it rained as well and the creek in constant motion can wash away or wash in items. That’s much different than an indoor crime scene where it can be protected from any change whatsoever.

While I don’t have a link I recall reading that homicides committed outdoors are more challenging to solve, for reasons such as that. It makes sense to me.

True, the fact that all of the evidence was outdoors and exposed to the elements would have been, IMO, the biggest challenge, less so a few hours difference in time finding/processing it. Ives has mentioned that this was one of the only outdoor crime scenes he personally had been involved with in many years. I think he said there had been two, in fact.

Another reason "outdoor" homicides are more challenging to solve is that they are more likely to have been perpetrated by people who were strangers to the victim. Especially when the victim's initial point of contact with the murderer also happened out in public. IMO

 

[Nancy1954]

LE calling off the search has never made any sense to me. I do think they were trying way too hard to hammer this square hole situation and these two particular girls into their round hole experience with missing teenagers. If they had listened to the families they would have known these girls were not the type that run off. Yes, I know, the families made statements regarding maybe they had gone here or there but I think that was 1) wishful thinking and 2) LE trying to convince them that’s what happened.
The thing that bugs me the most is LE walked away knowing these children were lightly dressed on a very cold February night. They headed home to their warm houses and cozy beds. LE gets no gold stars from me for this. They get no pats on the back and “it was a safety issue” from me. Their being there wouldn’t have saved the girls but who leaves two young girls to freeze. The girls’ families and friends didn’t. LE did.

I have to say that I am in agreement with you on this, StarryStarryNight. You echo my sentiments. In my opinion there was/is no excuse WHATSOEVER for not continuing the search that night.

 

[MistyWaters]

True, the fact that all of the evidence was outdoors and exposed to the elements would have been, IMO, the biggest challenge, less so a few hours difference in time finding/processing it. Ives has mentioned that this was one of the only outdoor crime scenes he personally had been involved with in many years. I think he said there had been two, in fact.

Another reason "outdoor" homicides are more challenging to solve is that they are more likely to have been perpetrated by people who were strangers to the victim. Especially when the victim's initial point of contact with the murderer also happened out in public. IMO

Yes, good point. And as the outdoor crime scene was accessible to anyone, especially if the suspect has local connections it can be difficult to prove what evidence was left at the crime scene or what was left there days before. That’s also why I think LE haven’t released more details to the general public. It’ll be direct knowledge of the crime and/or crime scene that places the suspect there and then.

JMO