Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #132

[minazoe]

thou shalt not kill.

mOO

 

[photographer4]

New to the case so I apologize in advance for any redundant terrain vis a vis my inquiries. Thx.

Would anybody happen to know how Abby got to Libby and the Patty's house on the 12th for the sleep over? Did Ana drop her off, or Derek, or was she picked up by either Becky or Mike or Kelsi? Or somehow otherwise?

I'm thinking that BG could have spotted either Abby, Libby or both some days/weeks before and if so then perhaps he was surveilling (voyeuristic stalking would probably be closer to what I'm implying) them, and then either followed them as they left Mike and Becky's that afternoon or catfished (I know this has supposedly been dismissed as a possibility) them to the bridge while he lay in wait

Have any of the families mentioned any odd occurrences that now really stand out in the days/weeks leading up to the bridge ambush?

What I would be most interested in, however, is an answer to my first question...how did Abby get to Libby's on the 12th?

Thanks.

Anna Williams said that there was some guy at the store, or the parking lot of a store where she was at with her daughter sometime before the abduction and the man creeped Abby out. Anna said that while discussing that with her daughter, she pointed out that she should trust that instinct. I don't know how long before the girls this happened, or any other info about the incident at all. Here is the video wherein she said it for those interested (22:23).

 

[Charlot123]

This is a spectacular example of excellent local journalism, and that is something I think is sorely missing in the Delphi case.

http://californiaregister.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Issue-2-Volume-3.pdf

This is about the Kristen Smart case and I realize the two cases are very different.
Where is the passion though in anything written or reported about Libby and Abby’s case by local journalists? They do nothing but parrot back what LE tells them. They never question anything, they never ever ask a follow-up question.
Just read a few paragraphs of this article and you’ll see the difference. The media does have a roll. Here, they are careful to not reveal information LE doesn’t want revealed, so they are not interfering but the newspaper does investigate on its own. Finds witnesses on its own. Questions and criticizes LE’s actions or inactions as it deems necessary. The media is pushing the case forward. They are pushing LE to do their best. They are true advocates for justice in this case. Where are the advocates in Indiana media for Abby and Libby?
Everybody in this case seems to be sitting and waiting. I wish the California Register would move to Indiana for a year or two.
Just my thoughts.

Amazing article. I wonder if in cases when someone is afraid of contacting the locals (there might be a few), they would consider getting in touch with California Register.

 

[JnRyan]

This is a spectacular example of excellent local journalism, and that is something I think is sorely missing in the Delphi case.

http://californiaregister.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Issue-2-Volume-3.pdf

This is about the Kristen Smart case and I realize the two cases are very different.
Where is the passion though in anything written or reported about Libby and Abby’s case by local journalists? They do nothing but parrot back what LE tells them. They never question anything, they never ever ask a follow-up question.
Just read a few paragraphs of this article and you’ll see the difference. The media does have a roll. Here, they are careful to not reveal information LE doesn’t want revealed, so they are not interfering but the newspaper does investigate on its own. Finds witnesses on its own. Questions and criticizes LE’s actions or inactions as it deems necessary. The media is pushing the case forward. They are pushing LE to do their best. They are true advocates for justice in this case. Where are the advocates in Indiana media for Abby and Libby?
Everybody in this case seems to be sitting and waiting. I wish the California Register would move to Indiana for a year or two.
Just my thoughts.

For a while, the Fox station had Alexis McAdams. I don't know if I can really say she was a strong advocate, but we got some good interviews with LE when she was there. She did the August 2017 interview with ISP 1st Sgt Holeman. She is with ABC7 in Chicago now.
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[FromGermany1]

Anna Williams said that there was some guy at the store, or the parking lot of a store where she was at with her daughter sometime before the abduction and the man creeped Abby out. Anna said that while discussing that with her daughter, she pointed out that she should trust that instinct. I don't know how long before the girls this happened, or any other info about the incident at all. Here is the video wherein she said it for those interested (22:23).

I strongly believe, it could have been him, the BG! MOO It would be a good thing to get Anna looking at photos of secret pois by LE/FBI, if there are any ........

 

[FromGermany1]

I will try to recap part of the content of a TV movie ("The white rabbit", "Das weiße Kaninchen"), I saw last night, because I had to think of Abby/Libby the whole time:
Teacher, married with 1 daughter, is pedophile. He is secretly watching girls in the school gym; sometimes he locks himself into an adjoining room, where he can do something more than only watching.
Good looking male student, 16 yo, who is searching for girls, he can convey to pedophiles on the internet.
Girl, 13 or 14 yo, very shy, looking for her first date.
All three meet each other on the internet, independent of each other, the student with a pic of himself, the teacher anonymously (pretending, he is also a nice young boy, avatar a white rabbit).
The girl is trusting both of the men.
The 16 yo male student manages to meet the girl and to manipulate/blackmail her; finally he will rape her.
The pedo teacher via internet learns of the girl's sorrows re the blackmailing, then begins to meet her as a supervisor of her school, allegedly to help her with the student and her pain. Of course, the most he has only his own interest in mind. When the girl gets raped by the student, he doesn't help, but is on the scene, hidden and watching. Afterwards he is playing his supervisor role again, to the girl, her parents, the police.
When a police official is suspecting him, the teacher, of being involved somehow and also being possibly the pedo perp of a murder 4 years ago (another little girl, case unsolved), the teacher gets rid of the officer by being killed with a spade.
-.-.-
I'm bad with telling about a TV movie, I know. But I tried, because I think, it could have been similar to the case of Abby/Libby. Within the movie, police didn't discover the true internet connection between the teacher and the girl, but only the innocent part of it. The teacher gave advice to the girl, how to manipulate her internet connection accordingly. - Now think of someone, who isn't a teacher, but in any case is an adult man and behaved like that: stalking, befriending, "helping", and so on.

My personally poi is no teacher!
It's only an example for a huge twist and the mixed internet connections between some people, two of them having nothing good in mind with the third one, each one with his own motives.

 

[Awsi Dooger]

I confess I'm not one of those who understand the crime scene contamination angle.

It's an offshoot of the optimistic belief that law enforcement knows who did it. That theme has been extremely simple to follow: Since the bridge is not well known it had to be a local. Since the bridge is very close to Delphi then local means Delphi. Since we're not solving this as soon as I expected then it has to be a false alibi. That false alibi should be easy to break via DNA but obviously we can't do that since the search party trampled all over the crime scene. Get with the program.

The catfishing angle is easily shot down by the great degree of detail and agreement regarding that morning, that Libby asked at the last minute and Kelsi originally said no. If not for those inconvenient anecdotes, then the catfishing angle would be relentlessly pushed and we wouldn't hear nearly as much about the search party and crime scene contamination. But just as the ones who do push the catfishing angle are content to ignore the description of that morning, the ones who devote to the contamination angle are more than willing to ignore the fact that the bodies were in an isolated area and we know exactly when they were discovered, and by members of the search party who were carefully selected to be in that high profile area. This wasn't Louie from Logansport skidding down the hill like a luger and crashing into the bodies while on his 6th beer of the day.

By all accounts two search parties came upon the bodies at almost the same time. One was the family member party who had discovered Libby's shoe, and the other group was following the set of footprints. Given who they were and the shocking aspect of what they encountered, I can almost guarantee this crime scene was handled far better than most. Yes, somebody might have touched the girls to see if there was any chance they were still alive. The odds of that wiping out best evidence is next to nothing.

Stranger crimes are hellish to solve. It baffles the heck out of me why that big picture truism doesn't dominate this case, as opposed to the constantly evolving rationalizations toward why they know who did it but aren't allowed to tell us.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

It's an offshoot of the optimistic belief that law enforcement knows who did it. That theme has been extremely simple to follow: Since the bridge is not well known it had to be a local. Since the bridge is very close to Delphi then local means Delphi. Since we're not solving this as soon as I expected then it has to be a false alibi. That false alibi should be easy to break via DNA but obviously we can't do that since the search party trampled all over the crime scene. Get with the program.

The catfishing angle is easily shot down by the great degree of detail and agreement regarding that morning, that Libby asked at the last minute and Kelsi originally said no. If not for those inconvenient anecdotes, then the catfishing angle would be relentlessly pushed and we wouldn't hear nearly as much about the search party and crime scene contamination. But just as the ones who do push the catfishing angle are content to ignore the description of that morning, the ones who devote to the contamination angle are more than willing to ignore the fact that the bodies were in an isolated area and we know exactly when they were discovered, and by members of the search party who were carefully selected to be in that high profile area. This wasn't Louie from Logansport skidding down the hill like a luger and crashing into the bodies while on his 6th beer of the day.

By all accounts two search parties came upon the bodies at almost the same time. One was the family member party who had discovered Libby's shoe, and the other group was following the set of footprints. Given who they were and the shocking aspect of what they encountered, I can almost guarantee this crime scene was handled far better than most. Yes, somebody might have touched the girls to see if there was any chance they were still alive. The odds of that wiping out best evidence is next to nothing.

Stranger crimes are hellish to solve. It baffles the heck out of me why that big picture truism doesn't dominate this case, as opposed to the constantly evolving rationalizations toward why they know who did it but aren't allowed to tell us.

Well said. I completely agree.

 

[minazoe]

I always thought he could have stalked the girls for a few days or even longer, just waiting for a chance to get them alone. He looks to have traversed that bridge 100's of times as he is casual and steady even with all of his items including the gun he has in his pocket. I will tell you that few people are just gonna bounce across a bridge like that when there is no prior experience and not even knowing if it is stable.

I'm sure the police and all the locals know this. no one just saunters across that thing unless they know it.

the man at the store is very intriguing.
mOO

 

[minazoe]

more thoughts...in the last piece with Abby's grandparents, you really got a feeling for that
bridge, you really felt confronted with it and that bridge is no joke. that is a oneway track on stilts so high there is no room for error.

its basically unsafe..and Im surprised that haven't gotten rid of it yet..they should remove the "hill" too. just cancel the whole place, it gives me the creeps!

mOO

 

[photographer4]

I strongly believe, it could have been him, the BG! MOO It would be a good thing to get Anna looking at photos of secret pois by LE/FBI, if there are any ........

I believe it could be him too! I wonder if Anna ever thought anything of that guy?? I wonder if Abby may have recognized the creeper and that might have been why Libby began recording?? Maybe Abby said to Libby, that guy creeped me out when I was with mom....... who knows? Anything is possible.

 

[Yemelyan]

Anna Williams said that there was some guy at the store, or the parking lot of a store where she was at with her daughter sometime before the abduction and the man creeped Abby out. Anna said that while discussing that with her daughter, she pointed out that she should trust that instinct. I don't know how long before the girls this happened, or any other info about the incident at all. Here is the video wherein she said it for those interested (22:23).

She talked about this in at least one other interview as well. In that other one, I believe she says it happened more than a year earlier. I believe it was a podcast so I'll try to find a timestamp.

She relates the story not because she's suspicious of that particular man, IMO, but to illustrate that she'd had conversations with Abby about "following your gut" re: the possible intentions of strange men.

 

[Falling Down]

It's an offshoot of the optimistic belief that law enforcement knows who did it. That theme has been extremely simple to follow: Since the bridge is not well known it had to be a local. Since the bridge is very close to Delphi then local means Delphi. Since we're not solving this as soon as I expected then it has to be a false alibi. That false alibi should be easy to break via DNA but obviously we can't do that since the search party trampled all over the crime scene. Get with the program.

The catfishing angle is easily shot down by the great degree of detail and agreement regarding that morning, that Libby asked at the last minute and Kelsi originally said no. If not for those inconvenient anecdotes, then the catfishing angle would be relentlessly pushed and we wouldn't hear nearly as much about the search party and crime scene contamination. But just as the ones who do push the catfishing angle are content to ignore the description of that morning, the ones who devote to the contamination angle are more than willing to ignore the fact that the bodies were in an isolated area and we know exactly when they were discovered, and by members of the search party who were carefully selected to be in that high profile area. This wasn't Louie from Logansport skidding down the hill like a luger and crashing into the bodies while on his 6th beer of the day.

By all accounts two search parties came upon the bodies at almost the same time. One was the family member party who had discovered Libby's shoe, and the other group was following the set of footprints. Given who they were and the shocking aspect of what they encountered, I can almost guarantee this crime scene was handled far better than most. Yes, somebody might have touched the girls to see if there was any chance they were still alive. The odds of that wiping out best evidence is next to nothing.

Stranger crimes are hellish to solve. It baffles the heck out of me why that big picture truism doesn't dominate this case, as opposed to the constantly evolving rationalizations toward why they know who did it but aren't allowed to tell us.

There have been roughly 15 abductions of juveniles by a stranger or strangers in the U.S. since 1974, so the rarity should give people pause. Throw in the other factors in this case, and the variables the killer had to juggle and try to make work in his favor, and I believe we have a one-of-one set of crimes committed that day. Which is why I believe LE were spooked early on, there simply is nothing to compare it to when all the facts are put together, it certainly took a lot of planning.

Good post AD.

 

[somequestions]

It's an offshoot of the optimistic belief that law enforcement knows who did it. That theme has been extremely simple to follow: Since the bridge is not well known it had to be a local. Since the bridge is very close to Delphi then local means Delphi. Since we're not solving this as soon as I expected then it has to be a false alibi. That false alibi should be easy to break via DNA but obviously we can't do that since the search party trampled all over the crime scene. Get with the program.

The catfishing angle is easily shot down by the great degree of detail and agreement regarding that morning, that Libby asked at the last minute and Kelsi originally said no. If not for those inconvenient anecdotes, then the catfishing angle would be relentlessly pushed and we wouldn't hear nearly as much about the search party and crime scene contamination. But just as the ones who do push the catfishing angle are content to ignore the description of that morning, the ones who devote to the contamination angle are more than willing to ignore the fact that the bodies were in an isolated area and we know exactly when they were discovered, and by members of the search party who were carefully selected to be in that high profile area. This wasn't Louie from Logansport skidding down the hill like a luger and crashing into the bodies while on his 6th beer of the day.

By all accounts two search parties came upon the bodies at almost the same time. One was the family member party who had discovered Libby's shoe, and the other group was following the set of footprints. Given who they were and the shocking aspect of what they encountered, I can almost guarantee this crime scene was handled far better than most. Yes, somebody might have touched the girls to see if there was any chance they were still alive. The odds of that wiping out best evidence is next to nothing.

Stranger crimes are hellish to solve. It baffles the heck out of me why that big picture truism doesn't dominate this case, as opposed to the constantly evolving rationalizations toward why they know who did it but aren't allowed to tell us.

I agree. Even former prosecutor Ives said in a news interview around the 4th anniversary that if this crime had happened to detectives in the 1950's or 60's there was enough evidence to collect. He added that in addition to all that evidence, they have the modern crime scene collections methods of today. This added even more evidence.

I think it is all psychological. People have a hard time believing that with audio, video, and all that evidence, after all this time, this crime still remains unsolved. People then come up with different reasons to try to explain away this denial. They think there must be another reason.

We are all guilty of confirmation bias to a certain extent in terms of how we think, but this case is that perfect example of simplicity. People have a very hard time believing that someone could walk in there, commit the crime, and walk out without be seen(or remembered). They have an even harder time believing the killer could leave so much evidence and the police are still not able to solve it.

Sadly crimes go unsolved all the time. You just do not hear about them because many times people do not discuss them anymore.

But there is that one glimmer of hope in this case: Liberty German's phone video. There will always be that chance the right person calls in identifying the right person who committed this crime. That could happen any day.

 

[carbuff]

For a while, the Fox station had Alexis McAdams. I don't know if I can really say she was a strong advocate, but we got some good interviews with LE when she was there. She did the August 2017 interview with ISP 1st Sgt Holeman. She is with ABC7 in Chicago now.
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I wonder if there would be any use asking McAdams to come out and do a retrospective on the case.

 

[minazoe]

is it possible they 100 percent know who did it and nothing is happening because they are just waiting to flush out his alibi?

maybe he could confess in exchange for a life sentence? I mean if they
know who he is, then he is on the hot seat 24/7 right? unless he's sitting on ice somewhere in a jail cell...otherwise he cant throw out a coke can or get pulled over for bad driving or he might have to talk to them...or they will get his DNA.

they followed Gacy like this..even hung out with him..went in his house...insane.

Delphi cops say they don't know who did it, but they act like they do know who did it.

it's all very secretive, I'll tell you what..mOO

 

[St. Anthony2017]

I strongly believe, it could have been him, the BG! MOO It would be a good thing to get Anna looking at photos of secret pois by LE/FBI, if there are any ........

Or store surveillance video if it is still available. Anna any Abby would be easy to recognize but LE may know the stranger.

 

[sandy_80]

There have been roughly 15 abductions of juveniles by a stranger or strangers in the U.S. since 1974, so the rarity should give people pause. Throw in the other factors in this case, and the variables the killer had to juggle and try to make work in his favor, and I believe we have a one-of-one set of crimes committed that day. Which is why I believe LE were spooked early on, there simply is nothing to compare it to when all the facts are put together, it certainly took a lot of planning.

Good post AD.

I keep seeing this and I DON'T UNDERSTAND HOW this can be accurate! .. after all how many missing juveniles cases do
we have that are considered missing and unsolved ? how many went missing without even being documented ..and what about sex trafficking ??

 

[JnRyan]

There have been roughly 15 abductions of juveniles by a stranger or strangers in the U.S. since 1974, so the rarity should give people pause. Throw in the other factors in this case, and the variables the killer had to juggle and try to make work in his favor, and I believe we have a one-of-one set of crimes committed that day. Which is why I believe LE were spooked early on, there simply is nothing to compare it to when all the facts are put together, it certainly took a lot of planning.

Good post AD.

I'm undecided as to whether or not this is a serial killer. One reason is the unique nature of the crime - only 15 such crimes since '74 - that you point out. (I assume you meant abductions of 'multiple' juveniles at once.) If this guy has killed before but only a single victim at a time, perhaps he had to alter his MO to accomplish this murder. If he has killed or contemplates killing in the future he may decide multiple victims is too challenging and, again, alters his MO. LE searching in ViCAP - which is already known to be incomplete with regard to violent crimes - may not be able to relate these murders to any other. IOW, the lack of a connection to another murder or murders doesn't necessarily mean there aren't other murders. Add to that the fact that this is likely a stranger makes it harder still.

Much is made that someone out there may very well know who this is and needs to call in the tip. But if LE somewhere else isn't utilizing ViCAP on a murder they have then we have a similar situation.

 

[Falling Down]

I keep seeing this and I DON'T UNDERSTAND HOW this can be accurate! .. after all how many missing juveniles cases do
we have that are considered missing and unsolved ? how many went missing without even being documented ..and what about sex trafficking ??

I screwed up, I meant to post "pairs of juveniles" by strangers. It's extremely rare.

JMO