Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #132

[FrostedGlass]

Agree.
MOO people hanging out in cars was already a problem on the other side.
There are also informal paths from the I25/200 area to the MHB along Bridge Creek. Formalizing the path to a public path is in the area land trust plans.

Thanks for this info. I wondered if people came across the creek from the Nature Reserve but could never see a way to cross without wading through water.

 

[Laughing]

LIBERTY GERMAN — FBI
ABIGAIL WILLIAMS — FBI
UNKNOWN SUSPECT — FBI


BBM:

“Investigators have distributed a photo (shown above) of a person observed on the Delphi Historic Trail. The photo appears to depict a White male wearing blue jeans, a blue coat/jacket, and a hoodie. During the course of the investigation, evidence has led investigators to believe the aforementioned person is suspected of being involved in the murders of Liberty German and Abigail Williams.”

Consider the number of modifiers in that sentence:

led to believe
suspected of
being involved

Even if BG's identity is established, LE isn't finished.

 

[MistyWaters]

Well....then it follows that LE could cut down on on those false tips by releasing more information. I’ve never quite understood releasing no information to the public, but begging for tips from the same public, and then complaining about the quality of the tips you’re getting from the uninformed public.

You’re not the only one who feels this way so I’m just curious, from your perspective regarding the belief LE should release more information - -

My question - if you don’t know anyone personally who could’ve been in Delphi on Feb 13th, someone who said something incriminating or did something peculiar around that same time that caught your attention and aroused your suspicion, someone who also resembles the photo and video - then what difference does it make whether or not LE releases more information?

I think that’s a bit of a stretch that LE is asking for tips from the public if that’s to suggest they encourage a sort of crowd-sourcing involving people with no firsthand knowledge of a possible suspect other than looking through SM for somebody with a vague physical resemblance. Without LEs ask for tips to the public, publicized by the media, by what other means could LE reach out to the one or more persons who may have critical information to solve this case?

 

[FrostedGlass]

I think that in and of itself tells us we are very clueless! I've never believed the re-enactments from YouTube in this case for this reason. We've been told, directly by LE they're inaccurate. We're not told how, only that none of them are accurate. Sounds like LE know far more than we know!

So what part of the reenactments do you feel are wrong? They showed us video of him on the bridge, gave us "down the hill" and confirmed they were killed where the bodies were found = across the creek. I'm stumped...

 

[MistyWaters]

Consider the number of modifiers in that sentence:

led to believe
suspected of
being involved

Even if BG's identity is established, LE isn't finished.

Throughout this case LE has consistently spoke with modifiers. Prior to an accused being convicted beyond reasonable doubt, at best LE can only put forward their opinions. IMO that’s not unusual.

Then to the far opposite direction, the oft comment that “LE knows” without any charges laid, let alone a conviction....sometimes I’m surprised by that view too, as if LE holds ultimate prosecutional authority which of course is not true.

 

[photographer4]

So what part of the reenactments do you feel are wrong? They showed us video of him on the bridge, gave us "down the hill" and confirmed they were killed where the bodies were found = across the creek. I'm stumped...

Thanks for asking! I've come to think it might be more like this:

-> They are at the south side of the bridge when he reaches them (did he pass them on the bridge going north and double back? I don't know).
-> He manipulates or intimidates the girls into compliance (no screams heard, doesn't seem like they ran from him).
-> But does that mean they went Directly DOWN THE HILL at the left side of the south end? Or did he march them a little ways away from the bridge and then they're down the hill?
-> Possibly they didn't go with him right directly off the south end like we think? Maybe they decided the best way away from him was to cross the creek on their own, and get back to the place where they were to meet DG? Sure, the crime started at the south end of the bridge. That could be as simple as BG appeared in the video there. We don't know where he / they were when he says words to them (do we?). We assume its that hill immediately to our left at the south end, but is it??
-> Maybe the girls crossed the creek at a decent clip hoping to evade him? He catches up and that's when he attacks?
-> OR: maybe he planned to take them to that abandoned house at the south side and attack there? But the plan changed because maybe they ran? Or one ran? We don't know. We assume he marched them down that hill and to their deaths, but that might not be how it happened, and I bet police know a lot more than we do.

It will be interesting to see how the girls ended up where they were found. If they ran from him? If they were heading back up towards the cemetery when he caught them? We just don't know.

-> Also, I think he went to the house on the south side and hid in an outbuilding there until he could escape in the darkness (however long that was for him). I don't know if he used the cemetery route to escape or not. But it won't shock me if he had a quad or car along that private drive and just cruised out when all was done.

 

[JWSleuth]

not very clear, but its there.
photos of face taken from a 54 second video

Interesting I see the younger sketch and curly hair in the snaps you have taken.

 

[JnRyan]

And as we trudge along, trying to figure out how this whole thing played out, I'm reminded of this said of the reenactments:

“[The videos] help us know that people don’t know [the true details], because the facts haven’t been released,” Holeman says. “People watch the news and think they are picking up on things, but it’s false. Nothing out there is accurate, which only leads to more false tips.”

I believe this came from the Fox59's (Alexis McAdams, the reporter) interview in August 2017. I wondered at the time - believing LE knew how it all went down - that maybe some were 75% accurate, some maybe more and some maybe less, but not 100% and that is what he meant.

Then we have the recent DTH interview with Sheriff Tobe Leazenby and he is asked how the killer left the area. TL basically says they don't know for sure and that all they have is speculation. What if Liberty's video/audio is not that much longer after that photo and audio? I believe LE during the DTH (TL again?) that the recording is not that long. What if that recording is not that long and LE is basically speculating parts of the crime from the bridge to the crime scene? For example, LE may not know if the girls ran from him across the creek or the killer directed them across. Are certain 'facts' not released by LE because they don't have them either?

 

[somequestions]

I think the unfortunate part about what people think sometimes is that it can cause people to go silent because they get tired of trying to defend themselves.

In my opinion, it does not seem like the property owner talks to the media that much anymore. If I were him I would go silent too, because if you do not say anything it is harder for people to accuse you.

While people have a right to free speech, they should probably think about what they say and how it affects others emotionally. Imagine if it were you or your family member being compared in a side by side comparison of the sketch or video.

 

[FrostedGlass]

Thanks for asking! I've come to think it might be more like this:

-> They are at the south side of the bridge when he reaches them (did he pass them on the bridge going north and double back? I don't know).
-> He manipulates or intimidates the girls into compliance (no screams heard, doesn't seem like they ran from him).
-> But does that mean they went Directly DOWN THE HILL at the left side of the south end? Or did he march them a little ways away from the bridge and then they're down the hill?
-> Possibly they didn't go with him right directly off the south end like we think? Maybe they decided the best way away from him was to cross the creek on their own, and get back to the place where they were to meet DG? Sure, the crime started at the south end of the bridge. That could be as simple as BG appeared in the video there. We don't know where he / they were when he says words to them (do we?). We assume its that hill immediately to our left at the south end, but is it??
-> Maybe the girls crossed the creek at a decent clip hoping to evade him? He catches up and that's when he attacks?
-> OR: maybe he planned to take them to that abandoned house at the south side and attack there? But the plan changed because maybe they ran? Or one ran? We don't know. We assume he marched them down that hill and to their deaths, but that might not be how it happened, and I bet police know a lot more than we do.

It will be interesting to see how the girls ended up where they were found. If they ran from him? If they were heading back up towards the cemetery when he caught them? We just don't know.

-> Also, I think he went to the house on the south side and hid in an outbuilding there until he could escape in the darkness (however long that was for him). I don't know if he used the cemetery route to escape or not. But it won't shock me if he had a quad or car along that private drive and just cruised out when all was done.

Thanks for your reply.

I think they were down by the metal railing when Libby said 'the path ends here so we can't go any farther.' AwsiD found a gentler slope a little way beyond the railing. Maybe BG was aware of that spot, too.

When I consider crossing the creek, the banks give me pause. I've looked at every pic I can find and there's only one place I see that's low enough for the girls to easily go up. The only problem is it doesn't seem to be where we think the crime scene begins.

 

[Falling Down]

Thanks for asking! I've come to think it might be more like this:

-> They are at the south side of the bridge when he reaches them (did he pass them on the bridge going north and double back? I don't know).
-> He manipulates or intimidates the girls into compliance (no screams heard, doesn't seem like they ran from him).
-> But does that mean they went Directly DOWN THE HILL at the left side of the south end? Or did he march them a little ways away from the bridge and then they're down the hill?
-> Possibly they didn't go with him right directly off the south end like we think? Maybe they decided the best way away from him was to cross the creek on their own, and get back to the place where they were to meet DG? Sure, the crime started at the south end of the bridge. That could be as simple as BG appeared in the video there. We don't know where he / they were when he says words to them (do we?). We assume its that hill immediately to our left at the south end, but is it??
-> Maybe the girls crossed the creek at a decent clip hoping to evade him? He catches up and that's when he attacks?
-> OR: maybe he planned to take them to that abandoned house at the south side and attack there? But the plan changed because maybe they ran? Or one ran? We don't know. We assume he marched them down that hill and to their deaths, but that might not be how it happened, and I bet police know a lot more than we do.

It will be interesting to see how the girls ended up where they were found. If they ran from him? If they were heading back up towards the cemetery when he caught them? We just don't know.

-> Also, I think he went to the house on the south side and hid in an outbuilding there until he could escape in the darkness (however long that was for him). I don't know if he used the cemetery route to escape or not. But it won't shock me if he had a quad or car along that private drive and just cruised out when all was done.

What abandoned house?

 

[mpnola]

"Guys" .... I will kill you .... "down the hill".
Can BG have said this in his evil mental state?

A member posted a statement from LE (KR??), who said, LE relived the girls' feeling of shock and terrible fear early in the clash of BG and his victims. My thoughts were, that it could have happened only between "guys" and "down the hill", when Abby/Libby got these fears for their existence. (I wasn't able to reply in time to this post.)
Do I remember well, when thinking back, that LE said 4 years ago, the BG's voice sounded "exasperated"? Because I didn't have the same impression listening to the video, the term "exasperated" got stuck with me.

I still have a couple of pages to catch up, but I wanted to respond before I got too far and forgot or lost it.

I read websleuths at night. I also wear headphones bc my child is usually laying next to me and doesn't need to hear all the things we listen to on here. I can hear a scream that says "oh my God, noooooo" clear as day between guys and down the hill. Maybe it is not real, but I heard it the first time I was wearing my headphones and can't NOT hear it every time now. I actually have a hard time listening to that clip because of that. Furthermore, there was an interview (maybe the down the hill podcast) recently when the sheriff said that on the tape, you could hear the fear in the girls and no one should hear that. That just made it more solid in my mind that what I hear is real.

 

[FromGermany1]

I still have a couple of pages to catch up, but I wanted to respond before I got too far and forgot or lost it.

I read websleuths at night. I also wear headphones bc my child is usually laying next to me and doesn't need to hear all the things we listen to on here. I can hear a scream that says "oh my God, noooooo" clear as day between guys and down the hill. Maybe it is not real, but I heard it the first time I was wearing my headphones and can't NOT hear it every time now. I actually have a hard time listening to that clip because of that. Furthermore, there was an interview (maybe the down the hill podcast) recently when the sheriff said that on the tape, you could hear the fear in the girls and no one should hear that. That just made it more solid in my mind that what I hear is real.

What you heard by yourself, will be quite right. It makes enough sense for the officer to have stated something about the girls' terrible fearful feeling at that moment.

 

[sunshineray]

Thanks for asking! I've come to think it might be more like this:

-> They are at the south side of the bridge when he reaches them (did he pass them on the bridge going north and double back? I don't know).
-> He manipulates or intimidates the girls into compliance (no screams heard, doesn't seem like they ran from him).
-> But does that mean they went Directly DOWN THE HILL at the left side of the south end? Or did he march them a little ways away from the bridge and then they're down the hill?
-> Possibly they didn't go with him right directly off the south end like we think? Maybe they decided the best way away from him was to cross the creek on their own, and get back to the place where they were to meet DG? Sure, the crime started at the south end of the bridge. That could be as simple as BG appeared in the video there. We don't know where he / they were when he says words to them (do we?). We assume its that hill immediately to our left at the south end, but is it??
-> Maybe the girls crossed the creek at a decent clip hoping to evade him? He catches up and that's when he attacks?
-> OR: maybe he planned to take them to that abandoned house at the south side and attack there? But the plan changed because maybe they ran? Or one ran? We don't know. We assume he marched them down that hill and to their deaths, but that might not be how it happened, and I bet police know a lot more than we do.

It will be interesting to see how the girls ended up where they were found. If they ran from him? If they were heading back up towards the cemetery when he caught them? We just don't know.

-> Also, I think he went to the house on the south side and hid in an outbuilding there until he could escape in the darkness (however long that was for him). I don't know if he used the cemetery route to escape or not. But it won't shock me if he had a quad or car along that private drive and just cruised out when all was done.

LE has stated in the past that the abduction to the crime scene and the murders happened within minutes of the recording that was released to the public. While the killer may have lingered at the crime scene, I think the murders were comitted quickly to keep the area quiet.

Since LE asked about a vehicle parked more by the Freedom Bridge area, I'd venture to suppose LE thinks the way in which the killer moved around that day was at some point at that spot. Gray Hughes has said that the information he's gotten from his sources that the killer left and was spotted near the cemetery, walking on the road.

I try to keep an open mind but I also repeat to myself to try and think simply about the killer's actions. I think the answers to his movements are going to be simple, logical ones involving quickness and stealth, the reasons why he's not been arrested...yet. AJMO

 

[sunshineray]

Interesting I see the younger sketch and curly hair in the snaps you have taken.

Please, what is the context of these photos? What 54 seconds video were they taken from?

 

[stattlich1]

For me, I think guys, down the hill, is said at the end of the bridge. From there, down the hill, across the creek, 50 ft. To the CS.

Escape route unknown but I think the cemetery.

Occams razor.

One thing I've come to believe. I'm likely wrong on most of my speculative thinking, and hopefully, soon, will have to eat crow upon emerging truth in this case.

 

[Ekliptika]

For me, I think guys, down the hill, is said at the end of the bridge. From there, down the hill, across the creek, 50 ft. To the CS.

Escape route unknown but I think the cemetery.

Occams razor.

One thing I've come to believe. I'm likely wrong on most of my speculative thinking, and hopefully, soon, will have to eat crow upon emerging truth in this case.

This is also one of my theories and I agree that it is the most logical taking into account the little that we know about the case.

I just keep going back to some of the things, that LE has stated and makes me wonder, if there is a lot more to this, that we do not know.

I can´t remember who Said something about the evidence found at the crime scene not being what we might Think.

I also read this article Delphi Murders: Superintendent Doug Carter Interview / 4 Year Anniversary - CrimeLights the other day (no clue if it is a viable source), where Carter says this:
DOUG CARTER: No, and I hope one day [when the case is solved] that everyone knows what we know, and I think you’ll be surprised.

I wonder if the “surprise” refers to that they know a lot or if we Will be surprised of how little they know?

so general speaking it Think it is very difficult to make theories about this case, as I just get the feeling from what LE is saying that what actually happened might not be something that we Can guess from the little we know.

 

[FrostedGlass]

LE has stated in the past that the abduction to the crime scene and the murders happened within minutes of the recording that was released to the public. While the killer may have lingered at the crime scene, I think the murders were comitted quickly to keep the area quiet.

Since LE asked about a vehicle parked more by the Freedom Bridge area, I'd venture to suppose LE thinks the way in which the killer moved around that day was at some point at that spot. Gray Hughes has said that the information he's gotten from his sources that the killer left and was spotted near the cemetery, walking on the road.

I try to keep an open mind but I also repeat to myself to try and think simply about the killer's actions. I think the answers to his movements are going to be simple, logical ones involving quickness and stealth, the reasons why he's not been arrested...yet. AJMO

I've been curious about how LE knows the time of death occurred in such a small window. I found this really interesting article that is a pretty simple read.

" After death, the body loses or gains heat progressively (at 1.5 degrees per hour) until it equilibrates with that of the surrounding medium." Considering the conditions (cold water, cold ground, dressed/undressed), I wonder how challenging it was for the coroner to determine TOD.
Determining Time of Death

 

[Yemelyan]

I still have a couple of pages to catch up, but I wanted to respond before I got too far and forgot or lost it.

I read websleuths at night. I also wear headphones bc my child is usually laying next to me and doesn't need to hear all the things we listen to on here. I can hear a scream that says "oh my God, noooooo" clear as day between guys and down the hill. Maybe it is not real, but I heard it the first time I was wearing my headphones and can't NOT hear it every time now. I actually have a hard time listening to that clip because of that. Furthermore, there was an interview (maybe the down the hill podcast) recently when the sheriff said that on the tape, you could hear the fear in the girls and no one should hear that. That just made it more solid in my mind that what I hear is real.

The human brain is a pattern recognition machine. Without this trait, you would not be able to learn language or undergo much of the learning needed to survive in your environment. Pattern recognition starts when you're a baby and continues all your life. Pattern recognition is probably the reason Libby got bad vibes about the guy walking toward them and felt it in her gut, for example. Really she was feeling that danger with her brain. But pattern recognition also works like this: whenever you hear sounds, your brain tries to make sense of them by trying to match them to patterns already stored in its "database."

This is kind of a simplistic way of putting it, but when you hear unintelligible sounds - especially if you are already thinking or hoping there is something there for you to hear or interpret - your brain searches for a recognized pattern, finds the closest match, and then processes the incoming sensory information to enhance the apparent match.

If you were thinking "I might hear the girls in distress in this clip because KR said it was hard to listen to, knowing what they went through," then if you listened and heard some odd sounds that weren't 100% recognizeable, your brain would take that pattern and try to assign something meaningful to it. Based on the previous suggestion you received through your reading that it would be nightmarish, your brain might decide you were hearing screams. This phenomenon is a normal outgrowth of the way our brains work. But it doesn't mean those sounds are actually there. MOO

Abby's mom AW said in a recorded interview that was posted on these threads (The Herbert interview) that she has heard the unedited section of audio that contains "guys...down the hill" and there are only a few seconds between "guys" and "down the hill." Furthermore, she says that the only utterance in that couple of seconds gap between "guys" and "down the hill" is the girls making what she called "a teenage thing like what? huh?"

 

[FromGermany1]

LE has stated in the past that the abduction to the crime scene and the murders happened within minutes of the recording that was released to the public. While the killer may have lingered at the crime scene, I think the murders were comitted quickly to keep the area quiet.

Since LE asked about a vehicle parked more by the Freedom Bridge area, I'd venture to suppose LE thinks the way in which the killer moved around that day was at some point at that spot. Gray Hughes has said that the information he's gotten from his sources that the killer left and was spotted near the cemetery, walking on the road.

I try to keep an open mind but I also repeat to myself to try and think simply about the killer's actions. I think the answers to his movements are going to be simple, logical ones involving quickness and stealth, the reasons why he's not been arrested...yet. AJMO

IF I remember well, the very first police roadblock was near Freedom Bridge; we saw the pictures of it from the helicopter.