Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #135

[JDough]

What is your main reason for thinking he’s probably not BG?

My gut or women's intuition. Many long-time posters in this thread are familiar with my personal story. My eight year old daughter was abducted and murdered over 20 years ago. Her case was "solved" earlier this year. I took a six month vacation from WS and social media because reading the cases I follow became too difficult.

Like Abby and Libby, my daughter was found in a rural area. When the crime scene is in the outdoors, the area becomes very large and difficult to investigate. Especially when there are volunteer searchers involved. Spit, urine, snot, gum wrappers, pieces of paper, leaves, sticks/branches, grass, etc. must all be collected. Finding the DNA of the person responsible is not always an easy task. This is one reason LE is not always quick to confirm someone is a suspect. It's entirely possible that DNA found at a crime scene is not "pure" (mixed with other bodily fluid, touched by someone not involved, touch DNA, a small amount, etc.).

Sometimes you have to read between the lines to understand what LE says publicly. My belief is that LE has a very short list of suspects. The DNA collected may be explained away (volunteer searcher, LE, medical personnel, family, etc). This puts LE in a position where they have no way of making an arrest without a tip or confession. They need proof that the POI was at MHB on February 13th. They need someone to reveal they are providing a false alibi. They need someone who noticed something unusual about a person they know after the murders. They need someone to provide that one tip they have been waiting for. I can almost guarantee you that JBC has already been interviewed about Abby and Libby since his arrest. His DNA has already been collected. LE has some way to rule a suspect out (think DN, PE , RL, etc.), we just don't know by what method.

Again; I would love to be wrong. This case is very near and dear to me. My heart just tells me it's not him.

 

[SMK777]

My gut or women's intuition. Many long-time posters in this thread are familiar with my personal story. My eight year old daughter was abducted and murdered over 20 years ago. Her case was "solved" earlier this year. I took a six month vacation from WS and social media because reading the cases I follow became too difficult.

Like Abby and Libby, my daughter was found in a rural area. When the crime scene is in the outdoors, the area becomes very large and difficult to investigate. Especially when there are volunteer searchers involved. Spit, urine, snot, gum wrappers, pieces of paper, leaves, sticks/branches, grass, etc. must all be collected. Finding the DNA of the person responsible is not always an easy task. This is one reason LE is not always quick to confirm someone is a suspect. It's entirely possible that DNA found at a crime scene is not "pure" (mixed with other bodily fluid, touched by someone not involved, touch DNA, a small amount, etc.).

Sometimes you have to read between the lines to understand what LE says publicly. My belief is that LE has a very short list of suspects. The DNA collected may be explained away (volunteer searcher, LE, medical personnel, family, etc). This puts LE in a position where they have no way of making an arrest without a tip or confession. They need proof that the POI was at MHB on February 13th. They need someone to reveal they are providing a false alibi. They need someone who noticed something unusual about a person they know after the murders. They need someone to provide that one tip they have been waiting for. I can almost guarantee you that JBC has already been interviewed about Abby and Libby since his arrest. His DNA has already been collected. LE has some way to rule a suspect out (think DN, PE , RL, etc.), we just don't know by what method.

Again; I would love to be wrong. This case is very near and dear to me. My heart just tells me it's not him.

OMG, I’m SO sorry, I didn’t know your history, or that your daughter’s case was recently solved. I hardly know what to say, just that you have my deepest sympathy and respect.

Thank you for illuminating these issues for me, it’s very clarifying.

 

[Spartygirl]

My gut or women's intuition. Many long-time posters in this thread are familiar with my personal story. My eight year old daughter was abducted and murdered over 20 years ago. Her case was "solved" earlier this year. I took a six month vacation from WS and social media because reading the cases I follow became too difficult.

Like Abby and Libby, my daughter was found in a rural area. When the crime scene is in the outdoors, the area becomes very large and difficult to investigate. Especially when there are volunteer searchers involved. Spit, urine, snot, gum wrappers, pieces of paper, leaves, sticks/branches, grass, etc. must all be collected. Finding the DNA of the person responsible is not always an easy task. This is one reason LE is not always quick to confirm someone is a suspect. It's entirely possible that DNA found at a crime scene is not "pure" (mixed with other bodily fluid, touched by someone not involved, touch DNA, a small amount, etc.).

Sometimes you have to read between the lines to understand what LE says publicly. My belief is that LE has a very short list of suspects. The DNA collected may be explained away (volunteer searcher, LE, medical personnel, family, etc). This puts LE in a position where they have no way of making an arrest without a tip or confession. They need proof that the POI was at MHB on February 13th. They need someone to reveal they are providing a false alibi. They need someone who noticed something unusual about a person they know after the murders. They need someone to provide that one tip they have been waiting for. I can almost guarantee you that JBC has already been interviewed about Abby and Libby since his arrest. His DNA has already been collected. LE has some way to rule a suspect out (think DN, PE , RL, etc.), we just don't know by what method.

Again; I would love to be wrong. This case is very near and dear to me. My heart just tells me it's not him.

Thank you for your point of view.
@JDough , YES, I do remember you sharing your experience about your daughter so when I see your posts, I always remember that you have walked in family's shoes before and respect your opinions.
Bless you for sharing again.

 

[Boxer]

My gut or women's intuition. Many long-time posters in this thread are familiar with my personal story. My eight year old daughter was abducted and murdered over 20 years ago. Her case was "solved" earlier this year. I took a six month vacation from WS and social media because reading the cases I follow became too difficult.

Like Abby and Libby, my daughter was found in a rural area. When the crime scene is in the outdoors, the area becomes very large and difficult to investigate. Especially when there are volunteer searchers involved. Spit, urine, snot, gum wrappers, pieces of paper, leaves, sticks/branches, grass, etc. must all be collected. Finding the DNA of the person responsible is not always an easy task. This is one reason LE is not always quick to confirm someone is a suspect. It's entirely possible that DNA found at a crime scene is not "pure" (mixed with other bodily fluid, touched by someone not involved, touch DNA, a small amount, etc.).

Sometimes you have to read between the lines to understand what LE says publicly. My belief is that LE has a very short list of suspects. The DNA collected may be explained away (volunteer searcher, LE, medical personnel, family, etc). This puts LE in a position where they have no way of making an arrest without a tip or confession. They need proof that the POI was at MHB on February 13th. They need someone to reveal they are providing a false alibi. They need someone who noticed something unusual about a person they know after the murders. They need someone to provide that one tip they have been waiting for. I can almost guarantee you that JBC has already been interviewed about Abby and Libby since his arrest. His DNA has already been collected. LE has some way to rule a suspect out (think DN, PE , RL, etc.), we just don't know by what method.

Again; I would love to be wrong. This case is very near and dear to me. My heart just tells me it's not him.

So Sorry.
Well, may the true perpetrator be caught soon.

 

[katydid23]

Tying JBC to the murders might be problematic for LE. CC Sheriff Leazenby stated in the HLN update in February that even though they have DNA they don't know if they have the killer's DNA. So if JBC's DNA matches MAYBE they have something. BUT if his DNA doesn't match the DNA at the scene it doesn't really rule him out as it isn't known if the killer really left DNA. I don't know about the quality of the fingerprint the sheriff has alluded to in a newspaper interview. LE may have other evidence. Shoeprints for example. But again if they don't find a match with the shoes in his house it doesn't rule him even if LE can pinpoint the size. In four years those shoes could be gone or the additional wear makes it difficult to draw a straight line to JBC. Even if he has a blue jacket that isn't the smoking gun LE might need. I believe I read one article referenced on here where a close family relative saw the video of the killer on the bridge and he couldn't say one or another if that was JBC.

I agree. And it is also hard to exactly pinpoint where a suspect may have been on that exAct date, 4 years ago. Especially someone who was somewhat transient.

We know he was living only about 35 miles away from Delphi, but I don't think he had a steady job at that time. So who knows and can verify exactly where he was that afternoon?

We saw FB posts he made but they were not showing him specifically and there was no location evident. Would LE even be able to get cell records that go back that far? I am under the impression that most of the cell providers only hold on to the data for a year or so. And there wouldn't be any cctv data available either, most likely.

If he has a solid alibi, I think he would be checked off already. Like if he could show he went out of state that week or was in rehab or something, he would have been ruled out.

The frustrating thing will be if he can't be ruled out but cannot be found responsible either. JMO

 

[somequestions]

Your BOLDED part-
YES--What IF Libby had NOT videoed or had audio of BG
Then what ???
Where would LE be then ???
2 Different sketches, 2 years apart and no clue.
Heck, we have video, we have a voice and yet, after 4 yrs, still no arrest.
Imagine without Libby's quick thinking to capture video and audio...just imagine.
we would have nothing , IMO

I agree we would have nothing. I think this case would be like any other case where all you have is a sketch and no phone video. That is why I do not follow the police sketches. I do not follow what family members say either because from has been said, it seems like they think LE is on the right track.

Sketches are loose re-creations based on a person's memory. That is it. Think of someone who stood in front of you in some line at the grocery store or gas station today and then pretend you have to try to describe this person to a sketch artist right now. That is all sketches are. This is probably why so many police do not like the idea because people want hard facts. They want to be able to analyze the face, the chin, the hair, and be able to match it and find the person.

I have come to realize people do not like the idea of trying to analyze human nature. It is too hard to define and categorize. People cannot get around the idea that sometimes police have evidence, but no one to connect it to. This is my opinion.

So my opinion about this case is this. First, people do not like opinions. There is too much left open to interpretation. Second, I do not think LE has any clue, any suspect, or even the faintest idea of who murdered Abigail Williams and Liberty German.

There is always the possibility that someday someone, for example, in South Dakota calls in a tip about an over 50 year old person they think matches Liberty German's phone video. But I have a strange feeling that no matter how they interpret that second sketch(if they research the case), I think it is going to be very hard for anyone to interpret the second sketch as a 50 year old man. The part that makes you wonder is if LE is wrong about what they think and the families end up waiting years for the case resolution because of it.

But this is only if LE is on the wrong track. Time will tell.

 

[katydid23]

JBC's 9-year-old victim didn't die, so he doesn't seem to be the efficient killer that I take BG to be. Maybe he couldn't go through with it; maybe he needed to get his nerve up, which I don't think BG would have needed to do. The survival of the victim argues against JBC's being BG.

He was well on the way to killing her until LE came knocking on his door. He knew they weren't going away and would likely break down the door if he didn't answer it. So he went to speak to them, hoping he could act innocent and steer them in another direction.

The injuries he had already given her were brutal. She had black eyes and purple bruises, a head injury, strangulation marks on her neck, and bleeding from her eyes, a pit bull bite on her leg, and she had been undressed. She passed out already once.

I don'[t think there is any question of him not being able too go through with it. He had already strangled her to unconsciousness, and committed sexual acts on her and punched her in the face multiple times. There is no way he was going to allow her to leave alive.

 

[JnRyan]

DC believes it is entirely possible BG has already been interviewed in their investigation.

With 50,000+ tips, yes, I certainly believe it is very likely that someone in LE has talked to him. But with that many tips, he is like the proverbial needle in a haystack. Literally hidden in plain sight.

 

[Questions123]

Idk to me it's almost like.. "we just need someone to confirm what we suspect."
If that makes sense.

Like they almost just need someone to come forward about a suspect

Would that not be an alibi then? It can't be DNA because that doesn't change so next logical thought would be someone has covered for this person and LE is appealing to that person to tell the truth? Imo

 

[Turkeytrot]

Would that not be an alibi then? It can't be DNA because that doesn't change so next logical thought would be something has covered for this person? Imo

I'd think that could be it

 

[mpnola]

He was well on the way to killing her until LE came knocking on his door. He knew they weren't going away and would likely break down the door if he didn't answer it. So he went to speak to them, hoping he could act innocent and steer them in another direction.

The injuries he had already given her were brutal. She had black eyes and purple bruises, a head injury, strangulation marks on her neck, and bleeding from her eyes, a pit bull bite on her leg, and she had been undressed. She passed out already once.

I don'[t think there is any question of him not being able too go through with it. He had already strangled her to unconsciousness, and committed sexual acts on her and punched her in the face multiple times. There is no way he was going to allow her to leave alive.

Exactly. To state what I really dont want to, he probably just wasn't finished yet. SHE said he was going to kill her. And he was. Hes been charged with attempted murder. He didn't hold back or have the inability to murder. He just wasn't done abusing his victim yet.

Sick effer.

 

[TootsieFootsie]

Crime Scene: Photo of killer is not always the ultimate clue

Scotland's leading crime expert Professor David Wilson looks at how images obtained by police change an investigation.
Does the release of a picture – not an e-fit, or a photo-fit but an actual photo of someone suspected of a crime – necessarily lead to an arrest?

Would this type of evidence with its potential to harness the power of the public who might want to help to solve a crime always be the turning point in the police’s investigation?

At a common sense level you would think that this must be the case.

However, what if I told you that a murderer was caught on camera by the soon-to-be murder victim, using her mobile phone and can clearly be heard telling her and, her friend who was also killed “guys – down the hill”?

 

[Finlay]

Your BOLDED part-
YES--What IF Libby had NOT videoed or had audio of BG
Then what ???
Where would LE be then ???
2 Different sketches, 2 years apart and no clue.
Heck, we have video, we have a voice and yet, after 4 yrs, still no arrest.
Imagine without Libby's quick thinking to capture video and audio...just imagine.
we would have nothing , IMO

I have spent time debating this same question in my mind for a while now. "Where would we be without the video & audio"? ...and I honestly haven't come up with a clear answer even for myself. I do feel like there are likely details in that recording which seem sure to help LE either build their theories, or at least help them be much more confident in the theories they might have arrived upon even with out the video & audio. There may even be more details in the recording which could help LE confirm a suspect after the suspect has been brought 'under the microscope' (so to say).
In My Opinion, I would guess that it may not have been an easy decision for LE to release the video & audio. Or, the decision may have been made based on (what now may appear to have been) a 'faulty' assumption that the killer would likely to be easy for local folks to identify.

However, in hindsight (which *most* -not me- say is 20/20), I wonder if public input became too 'widely varying based on the 'less than quality' info that was shared with the public. I really do (now) feel like the general public *MAY* have been able to provide better info/feedback/tips had the details shared with the public been based on quality details/observations/evidence which had been derived & formulated based on expert interpretations and profiles of what was known to the investigators at the time.

Also: I feel the need to add here that I honestly hesitate to even post this because I do not for a second want anyone to think that I am second guessing LE's decision on what info to release at any time OR the widely varying opinions of the general public who's views can vary so very VERY widely. This is completely my "after the fact, backseat driver, Monday morning QB" opinion. And I am also pretty sure that I would likely have had a different opinion if I'd have been asked to share it in those first few days of the investigation. ...all of this is of course so VERY much MOO.

 

[Slawsb]

I do hope that JBC is BG for 2 reasons:

1. It would hopefully bring closure for the families, and

2. It would mean that the person responsible is already behind bars, and likely to stay there indefinitely based on his current case. I am concerned about whether the evidence from the Delphi would be strong enough to secure a conviction.

We don't know what evidence they have

 

[Slawsb]

He was well on the way to killing her until LE came knocking on his door. He knew they weren't going away and would likely break down the door if he didn't answer it. So he went to speak to them, hoping he could act innocent and steer them in another direction.

The injuries he had already given her were brutal. She had black eyes and purple bruises, a head injury, strangulation marks on her neck, and bleeding from her eyes, a pit bull bite on her leg, and she had been undressed. She passed out already once.

I don'[t think there is any question of him not being able too go through with it. He had already strangled her to unconsciousness, and committed sexual acts on her and punched her in the face multiple times. There is no way he was going to allow her to leave alive.

But thank God she did

 

[FromGermany1]

I would like to know, if all the local "rumors", which we don't know of, are now regarding JBC more true and possible than before. Only an Delphi insider would know .....

Then I would also like to know, if JBC fits a lot of the profile, police mentioned re perp's behavior on Febr 13th and after the crime. Atm I can't find the list (missing appointments, missing work, sleeping problems, drinking more, shaving facial hair, getting a new look, ....).

ETA: I just found one version of the list.
<mod edit to link: https://www.wrtv.com/news/crime/delphi-indiana-what-to-look-for-in-a-delphi-suspect >

“Did an individual travel unexpectedly?” Massa said. “Did they change their appearance? Did they shave their beard, cut their hair, or change the color of their hair? Did they change the way they dress?”

Even behavioral changes that occurred shortly after February 13, 2017:

• Someone who developed a different sleep pattern
• Started abusing drugs or alcohol
• Has become anxious or irritable
• Someone who has followed this case to an extreme
• Someone who has had ongoing conversations about where they were Feb. 13
• Someone who has visited the location where the girls were murdered
• Someone who has taken photographs in the area of the trail and bridge

Police say don’t ever feel bad about reporting odd behavior.

 

[knuterocknes]

My gut or women's intuition. Many long-time posters in this thread are familiar with my personal story. My eight year old daughter was abducted and murdered over 20 years ago. Her case was "solved" earlier this year. I took a six month vacation from WS and social media because reading the cases I follow became too difficult.

Like Abby and Libby, my daughter was found in a rural area. When the crime scene is in the outdoors, the area becomes very large and difficult to investigate. Especially when there are volunteer searchers involved. Spit, urine, snot, gum wrappers, pieces of paper, leaves, sticks/branches, grass, etc. must all be collected. Finding the DNA of the person responsible is not always an easy task. This is one reason LE is not always quick to confirm someone is a suspect. It's entirely possible that DNA found at a crime scene is not "pure" (mixed with other bodily fluid, touched by someone not involved, touch DNA, a small amount, etc.).

Sometimes you have to read between the lines to understand what LE says publicly. My belief is that LE has a very short list of suspects. The DNA collected may be explained away (volunteer searcher, LE, medical personnel, family, etc). This puts LE in a position where they have no way of making an arrest without a tip or confession. They need proof that the POI was at MHB on February 13th. They need someone to reveal they are providing a false alibi. They need someone who noticed something unusual about a person they know after the murders. They need someone to provide that one tip they have been waiting for. I can almost guarantee you that JBC has already been interviewed about Abby and Libby since his arrest. His DNA has already been collected. LE has some way to rule a suspect out (think DN, PE , RL, etc.), we just don't know by what method.

Again; I would love to be wrong. This case is very near and dear to me. My heart just tells me it's not him.

I've been a long time lurker, but your story is heartbreaking. I'm so sorry to hear about your daughter and I cannot imagine what you've gone through the last 20 years. Thank you for your input on Libby and Abby's case.

 

[Questions123]

Is anyone able to tell me as I'm still learning about this case how far is the abandoned cabin from the location where the bodies were generally assumed by people on here to be found? Also to get to the cabin from the end of the bridge would you have to cross a body of water or not? Standing from the cabin would any part of the bridge be visible? Hope I'm making sense.

 

[katydid23]

But thank God she did

Yes, thank God and the persistent officers, who had the gut feeling that she could be there with that creeper.

 

[steeltowngirl]

My gut or women's intuition. Many long-time posters in this thread are familiar with my personal story. My eight year old daughter was abducted and murdered over 20 years ago. Her case was "solved" earlier this year. I took a six month vacation from WS and social media because reading the cases I follow became too difficult.

Like Abby and Libby, my daughter was found in a rural area. When the crime scene is in the outdoors, the area becomes very large and difficult to investigate. Especially when there are volunteer searchers involved. Spit, urine, snot, gum wrappers, pieces of paper, leaves, sticks/branches, grass, etc. must all be collected. Finding the DNA of the person responsible is not always an easy task. This is one reason LE is not always quick to confirm someone is a suspect. It's entirely possible that DNA found at a crime scene is not "pure" (mixed with other bodily fluid, touched by someone not involved, touch DNA, a small amount, etc.).

Sometimes you have to read between the lines to understand what LE says publicly. My belief is that LE has a very short list of suspects. The DNA collected may be explained away (volunteer searcher, LE, medical personnel, family, etc). This puts LE in a position where they have no way of making an arrest without a tip or confession. They need proof that the POI was at MHB on February 13th. They need someone to reveal they are providing a false alibi. They need someone who noticed something unusual about a person they know after the murders. They need someone to provide that one tip they have been waiting for. I can almost guarantee you that JBC has already been interviewed about Abby and Libby since his arrest. His DNA has already been collected. LE has some way to rule a suspect out (think DN, PE , RL, etc.), we just don't know by what method.

Again; I would love to be wrong. This case is very near and dear to me. My heart just tells me it's not him.

Much sorrow for your loss, prayers for healing, and deep respect for your willingness to stay here with us. You provide a unique and valuable perspective. Thank you.