Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #135

[MistyWaters]

I had never heard of this man dressed in all black, nor seen anyone discussing this incident. And yet in the article, LE is pushing the bridge guy from Libby’s phone, and not asking the public if they’ve seen the man in all black. Very strange. Don’t know what conclusions to draw, whether someone cleared or a secondary person.

Oh yes, the man in black has been discussed. I can’t find the original link so to the best if my recollect - a teen told the media her friends had saw a man in black walking the trail, although it wasn’t exactly at the time of the murders…the day before? Doesn’t every good murder require a mysterious man in black? But LE have never ever mentioned a man in black so I think it wasn’t a significant lead, plus it wasn’t a first-hand story to begin with.

JMO

 

[SMK777]

Oh yes, the man in black has been discussed. I can’t find the original link so to the best if my recollect - a teen told the media her friends had saw a man in black walking the trail, although it wasn’t exactly at the time of the murders…the day before? Doesn’t every good murder require a mysterious man in black? But LE have never ever mentioned a man in black so I think it wasn’t a significant lead, plus it wasn’t a first-hand story to begin with.

JMO

Oh, okay, thanks. I honestly had never come across that info before.

 

[CNYDarkStar]

It would be incredibly difficult to move even one of the girls. Libby was 200 lb's herself. Let alone both of them. The unofficial search didn't end until between 1:30 and 2:00 am, according to Mike Patty. So I just don't see this person hanging around and going through all this trouble so he can just dump the bodies in the same area they were accosted. And I don't know if you've seen any videos of the area, but it's.. rough. It's also hilly. I just don't see any logical reasoning why anyone would go through this much trouble of dumping the girls there. I don't even think it would be possible.

Tobe flat out says they were killed where they were found and I certainly believe him.

Sheriff Leazenby continues to answer double homicide questions | Carroll County Comet

Precisely. Highly unlikely if not impossible. There would be no logical reason to risk that much effort.

 

[Falling Down]

Adding on my connectedness comment for JBC, old highway routes between Lafayette and Kokomo and Peru also go through Flora, where the Pizza King owner was drug dealer and a creep, ultimately molesting his own teen daughter. The Pizza King coincidentally is kitty corner from the house where the four girls died in the Flora fire.

Yes Rte. 18 is one of those routes. I drove it on my way to MHB last year.

I'm of the opinion BG knows all the main roads out there. It's easy to get around here in most of northern IN, most of the roads run pretty much at 90 degree angles, something that took some getting used to when I moved here.

I think a lot of folks have been under the impression that because of the highway that perhaps a lot of people would have known about the trails and the bridge, before the murders. The highway opened only in 2014 through there, as LE have indicated they think the perp is someone who knows the area. Pre-highway, I picture the trails having even less traffic, more of a local "hidden gem". I've yet to find any YouTube videos of the bridge area posted prior to 2016, despite the bridge's local popularity and it being known about by railroad history folks and the like. The state and U.S. routes through there would have all been two-lane roads.

To this day, the Google Maps app has not been updated from 2008 where the old IN 25, C.R. 300, and Samuel Milroy Rd. meet. So while the overhead views are pretty sharp and what have you, Street Views have not been updated, and once you get there by vehicle the Maps app starts flaking a bit. To find the turn off for C.R. 300 I've had to use landmarks at 65 mph, the Freedom Bridge, the Delphi water tower, Andersons (grain terminal), and the NS railroad line through there. Otherwise, it's easy to just haul through there and not even realize you've passed the turn off for the trail. There are no signs along the highway for the turn off, nothing indicating C.R. 300 is there or for that matter the Delphi is a stone's throw from the highway. There are two small signs for the Monon Trail which were put up in more recent times, but still there are no signs for the bridge itself along the highway.

I'm convinced BG was well aware of all of the above well before the murders, he knows that general area well.

JMO

 

[Boxer]

Yes Rte. 18 is one of those routes. I drove it on my way to MHB last year.

I'm of the opinion BG knows all the main roads out there. It's easy to get around here in most of northern IN, most of the roads run pretty much at 90 degree angles, something that took some getting used to when I moved here.

I think a lot of folks have been under the impression that because of the highway that perhaps a lot of people would have known about the trails and the bridge, before the murders. The highway opened only in 2014 through there, as LE have indicated they think the perp is someone who knows the area. Pre-highway, I picture the trails having even less traffic, more of a local "hidden gem". I've yet to find any YouTube videos of the bridge area posted prior to 2016, despite the bridge's local popularity and it being known about by railroad history folks and the like. The state and U.S. routes through there would have all been two-lane roads.

To this day, the Google Maps app has not been updated from 2008 where the old IN 25, C.R. 300, and Samuel Milroy Rd. meet. So while the overhead views are pretty sharp and what have you, Street Views have not been updated, and once you get there by vehicle the Maps app starts flaking a bit. To find the turn off for C.R. 300 I've had to use landmarks at 65 mph, the Freedom Bridge, the Delphi water tower, Andersons (grain terminal), and the NS railroad line through there. Otherwise, it's easy to just haul through there and not even realize you've passed the turn off for the trail. There are no signs along the highway for the turn off, nothing indicating C.R. 300 is there or for that matter the Delphi is a stone's throw from the highway. There are two small signs for the Monon Trail which were put up in more recent times, but still there are no signs for the bridge itself along the highway.

I'm convinced BG was well aware of all of the above well before the murders, he knows that general area well.

JMO

Agree. And thanks for the information

I just see anyone regularly driving between Kokomo and Lafayette taking side trips, or parallel highways and getting to know the area.

 

[Falling Down]

Agree. And thanks for the information

I just see anyone regularly driving between Kokomo and Lafayette taking side trips,or parallel highways and getting to know the area.

ISP thought similarly, people I know down that way explained to me they paid attention to the larger manufacturing and meat processing plants in that area, thinking it was a shift worker who committed the murders. Which I think is totally plausible. Fiat-Chrysler, Subaru, Caterpillar, the packing plants, etc., employ a total of probably 10,000+ shift workers. ISP questioned a lot of shift workers at those facilities.

 

[Tiff23fr]

Yes Rte. 18 is one of those routes. I drove it on my way to MHB last year.

I'm of the opinion BG knows all the main roads out there. It's easy to get around here in most of northern IN, most of the roads run pretty much at 90 degree angles, something that took some getting used to when I moved here.

I think a lot of folks have been under the impression that because of the highway that perhaps a lot of people would have known about the trails and the bridge, before the murders. The highway opened only in 2014 through there, as LE have indicated they think the perp is someone who knows the area. Pre-highway, I picture the trails having even less traffic, more of a local "hidden gem". I've yet to find any YouTube videos of the bridge area posted prior to 2016, despite the bridge's local popularity and it being known about by railroad history folks and the like. The state and U.S. routes through there would have all been two-lane roads.

To this day, the Google Maps app has not been updated from 2008 where the old IN 25, C.R. 300, and Samuel Milroy Rd. meet. So while the overhead views are pretty sharp and what have you, Street Views have not been updated, and once you get there by vehicle the Maps app starts flaking a bit. To find the turn off for C.R. 300 I've had to use landmarks at 65 mph, the Freedom Bridge, the Delphi water tower, Andersons (grain terminal), and the NS railroad line through there. Otherwise, it's easy to just haul through there and not even realize you've passed the turn off for the trail. There are no signs along the highway for the turn off, nothing indicating C.R. 300 is there or for that matter the Delphi is a stone's throw from the highway. There are two small signs for the Monon Trail which were put up in more recent times, but still there are no signs for the bridge itself along the highway.

I'm convinced BG was well aware of all of the above well before the murders, he knows that general area well.

JMO

Your post brought something to mind I was reading earlier:

JS said one of the things he fears most out of this tragedy is that there will be another victim: the Delphi Historic Trails.
The city was just getting to the point where they were really advertising them, and this unfortunately happened," he said. "When you are out there on those trails you can really let your imagination flow. You can see the Monon railroad through the trees, I mean, this is part of what made Indiana a viably economic state."

JMO- I didn’t realize economic development work was underway regarding the trails right before the murders. I read the articles and noticed all that has benefited the trail system since but had not considered any potential prior efforts had been in progress and advertising may have been occurring.

Delphi reflects, looks forward after tragedy

 

[MistyWaters]

I had never heard of this man dressed in all black, nor seen anyone discussing this incident. And yet in the article, LE is pushing the bridge guy from Libby’s phone, and not asking the public if they’ve seen the man in all black. Very strange. Don’t know what conclusions to draw, whether someone cleared or a secondary person.
Addendum: If this was part of the younger sketch, why did LE never say, “it’s believed that he was wearing all black on the day of the crime”. ?

Why didn’t LE say that? For one thing iirc, this sighting wasn’t made at the time of the murders. So there’s nothing to suggest it involved the same person who contributed to the younger sketch. Or maybe once LE talked to the girls they retracted their sighting and blamed it on an overly active imagination, or remembered it wasn’t the day before, instead weeks before? Maybe it involved a circle of teens and by the time LE checked it out nobody took credit for the sighting (ie telephone game). We just don’t know but it wasn’t LE who commented on it so they must have a reason to determine a man in black isn’t relevant to this case.

 

[MistyWaters]

Your post brought something to mind I was reading earlier:

JS said one of the things he fears most out of this tragedy is that there will be another victim: the Delphi Historic Trails.
The city was just getting to the point where they were really advertising them, and this unfortunately happened," he said. "When you are out there on those trails you can really let your imagination flow. You can see the Monon railroad through the trees, I mean, this is part of what made Indiana a viably economic state."

JMO- I didn’t realize economic development work was underway regarding the trails right before the murders. I read the articles and noticed all that has benefited the trail system since but had not considered any potential prior efforts had been in progress and advertising may have been occurring.

Delphi reflects, looks forward after tragedy

These are a couple of articles regarding future plans for the bridge. Both were dated Jan, 2016.

Save the Monon High Bridge | Carroll County Comet

Sponsor, donors sought to turn trestle into trail crossing

 

[JDough]

I've been thinking lately, the only things we know as FACT are the "down the hill" voice recording, the BG pic taken by one of the girls and an approximate area of where the girls' bodies were found.
I'd been theorising a few "what if's"...........
1) The girls were murdered elsewhere (say in a shack / shed / house) and then taken to and dumped / posed at the crime scene. I'm starting to lean towards this when thinking about the timeline of the crime and how quickly the crime would need to have been committed and the lack of folks hearing anything at all (no screams etc).
2) One of them "fought like hell", what happens if he was forensically aware and removed their digits so they would never get DNA from under her fingernails ?
3) If there was any chance he did take them elsewhere he must have taken them to the crime scene after the searchers went home (as nobody would run the risk of being in the area when there is a massive search going on). The "Shack" references made by Doug Carter made me think long and hard about this possible scenario.
We've got to imagine / be totally realistic that LE know way way more than us, they may have withheld all kinds of stuff and possibly even told a few porkie pies (white lies) to try and throw the killer off / lure him out somehow.
I include Abby and Libby in a little prayer I do every night as this crime has moved and troubled me terribly ever since I heard about it years ago - I just want to see it solved, and hope that if JBC is not the guy, that LE release a few more titbits for folks to try and identify this *** in the future. This case hopefully can never be allowed to "go cold".
ALL JMOO,

I would be possible with a wheelbarrow or a small trailer tbh - that's if they were dead then. The perp could have spent time with them elsewhere and walked them to the crime scene before murdering them tbh.......all scenarios are possible tbf.
JMOO

Doug Carter has stated (very firmly) on numerous occasions that the girls were murdered right where they were found. They were not taken away from MHB and returned later. They were laying in the exact spot where their lives were taken away.

 

[Yemelyan]

I've been thinking lately, the only things we know as FACT are the "down the hill" voice recording, the BG pic taken by one of the girls and an approximate area of where the girls' bodies were found.
I'd been theorising a few "what if's"...........
1) The girls were murdered elsewhere (say in a shack / shed / house) and then taken to and dumped / posed at the crime scene. I'm starting to lean towards this when thinking about the timeline of the crime and how quickly the crime would need to have been committed and the lack of folks hearing anything at all (no screams etc).
2) One of them "fought like hell", what happens if he was forensically aware and removed their digits so they would never get DNA from under her fingernails ?
3) If there was any chance he did take them elsewhere he must have taken them to the crime scene after the searchers went home (as nobody would run the risk of being in the area when there is a massive search going on). The "Shack" references made by Doug Carter made me think long and hard about this possible scenario.
We've got to imagine / be totally realistic that LE know way way more than us, they may have withheld all kinds of stuff and possibly even told a few porkie pies (white lies) to try and throw the killer off / lure him out somehow.
I include Abby and Libby in a little prayer I do every night as this crime has moved and troubled me terribly ever since I heard about it years ago - I just want to see it solved, and hope that if JBC is not the guy, that LE release a few more titbits for folks to try and identify this *** in the future. This case hopefully can never be allowed to "go cold".
ALL JMOO,

As others have answered, Leazenby answered "killed where they were found" not once, but twice in the Carroll County Comet Q&A that he did in February. Source: County Sheriff answers double homicide questions from readers | Carroll County Comet

In addition, in the podcast Scene of the Crime: A New Direction, minute 50:10: Kelsi asks Carter, can he clear up his remarks regarding The Shack? Did the girls die in a shack? Carter's answer: "There was no shack." Source: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/scene-of-the-crime/id1490638628

IMO there is zero chance LE are lying about this or misdirecting for some reason. If they didn't want the public to know that the girls were killed elsewhere, they'd say "no comment." The fact that they are telling us the girls were killed where they were found, when they've confirmed little else, is significant.

 

[SMK777]

Maybe it involved a circle of teens and by the time LE checked it out nobody took credit for the sighting (ie telephone game). We just don’t know but it wasn’t LE who commented on it so they must have a reason to determine a man in black isn’t relevant to this case.

Quite possibly, yes. Obviously LE determined it was irrelevant to their investigation.

 

[Boxer]

ISP thought similarly, people I know down that way explained to me they paid attention to the larger manufacturing and meat processing plants in that area, thinking it was a shift worker who committed the murders. Which I think is totally plausible. Fiat-Chrysler, Subaru, Caterpillar, the packing plants, etc., employ a total of probably 10,000+ shift workers. ISP questioned a lot of shift workers at those facilities.

It is a lot of people commuting, working round the clock shifts.

 

[UnapologeticallyAspie]

I personally feel that BG is living a double life, and is a sociopath.
I once knew one personally. He was my only in my life because he was my ex-husband’s, sister’s husband. He had a double life in a state that was on the other side of the country. And had many affairs while living this double life of his. Even when he was caught he kept going, as if he didn’t give a *advertiser censored*. Which of course he didn’t because he felt nothing.
He was charismatic, a great conversationalist, could talk his way into jobs, and manipulated everyone, he got along with everyone, was liked by everyone, he threw amazing, over the top parties, providing everyone with food and drink, paying for all activities, was overly/extremely generous with everyone, with the exception of being generous with his wife. He was extremely controlling with money when she spent money on herself. But also extravagant with his gifts to her, and with his family. But only IF his deeds were seen by all. Yet he had a terrible temper. His wife and children were emotionally, psychologically, and verbally abused. But not physically. And NO one had a clue about him. And if they did they never said anything. Well all but his adoptive mother. She said things here and there over the years. She was not at all close with him. In fact I am totally confident that she was scared of him. She had made mention of putting him in a hospital for psychiatric care when he was younger. Acknowledging that there was something not right about him.

I could go on & on, but I won’t. The point is is that I think BG is A LOT like my ex BIL. I strongly feel that he comes off as a kind, loving, generous, giving, accepting of others, to all, to everyone (mostly everyone), but secretly has a hidden DARK (x 8) side.

But that’s just, my opinion only.

And as a side note, I think that if, and or when BG is caught, that an accessory to the crime will also be brought to light. JMO.

 

[Ozoner]

I personally feel that BG is living a double life, and is a sociopath.
I once knew one personally. He was my only in my life because he was my ex-husband’s, sister’s husband. He had a double life in a state that was on the other side of the country. And had many affairs while living this double life of his. Even when he was caught he kept going, as if he didn’t give a ****. Which of course he didn’t because he felt nothing.
He was charismatic, a great conversationalist, could talk his way into jobs, and manipulated everyone, he got along with everyone, was liked by everyone, he threw amazing, over the top parties, providing everyone with food and drink, paying for all activities, was overly/extremely generous with everyone, with the exception of being generous with his wife. He was extremely controlling with money when she spent money on herself. But also extravagant with his gifts to her, and with his family. But only IF his deeds were seen by all. Yet he had a terrible temper. His wife and children were emotionally, psychologically, and verbally abused. But not physically. And NO one had a clue about him. And if they did they never said anything. Well all but his adoptive mother. She said things here and there over the years. She was not at all close with him. In fact I am totally confident that she was scared of him. She had made mention of putting him in a hospital for psychiatric care when he was younger. Acknowledging that there was something not right about him.

I could go on & on, but I won’t. The point is is that I think BG is A LOT like my ex BIL. I strongly feel that he comes off as a kind, loving, generous, giving, accepting of others, to all, to everyone (mostly everyone), but secretly has a hidden DARK (x 8) side.

But that’s just, my opinion only.

And as a side note, I think that if, and or when BG is caught, that an accessory to the crime will also be brought to light. JMO.

1–3% of people in the general population are sociopaths, so you've known more than one, I'll warrant, even if you weren't able to identify all of them.

 

[Falling Down]

It is a lot of people commuting, working round the clock shifts.

Willing to drive some distance to and from work, too. Say an hour or so, I had a co-worker in Kokomo when I was down there on assignment who drove an hour each way back and forth to Monticello.

I try t explain to folks who are unfamiliar what it's like here, especially the smaller cities. Small cities that are literally surrounded by vast expanses of agriculture and countryside. Delphi is like this, on a much smaller scale, but one only look at a map to see what I'm talking about.

I believe BG is "hiding in plain sight" not far from Delphi, but far enough to where nobody on the trails that day would have recognized him or his vehicle.

Hiding in plain sight would include any number of occupations, shifts, etc., in that area. Plus people do commute back and forth to Indy from there.

JMO

 

[Sillybilly]

ADMIN NOTE:

When a member asks for a link, provide it. When a Moderator asks for a link, provide it.

Basic TOS ... members are required to provide links to what they state as fact about something that has not previously been discussed in the thread. To basically tell other members or Mods post numbers in another thread or give hints on how they should go about finding it is NOT satisfactory.

Members, Mods and Admins do not have time to be trying to find the info to support what you claim as fact, nor should they have to. The posting member is the one who is required to provide a clickable link to the information that supports what they state. Common courtesy so that we don't have 10 to 20 members and WS staff all rummaging around trying to find what should have been provided in the first place.

Warning points will be issued and if it continues, Time Outs will be issued.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

I personally feel that BG is living a double life, and is a sociopath.
I once knew one personally. He was my only in my life because he was my ex-husband’s, sister’s husband. He had a double life in a state that was on the other side of the country. And had many affairs while living this double life of his. Even when he was caught he kept going, as if he didn’t give a ****. Which of course he didn’t because he felt nothing.
He was charismatic, a great conversationalist, could talk his way into jobs, and manipulated everyone, he got along with everyone, was liked by everyone, he threw amazing, over the top parties, providing everyone with food and drink, paying for all activities, was overly/extremely generous with everyone, with the exception of being generous with his wife. He was extremely controlling with money when she spent money on herself. But also extravagant with his gifts to her, and with his family. But only IF his deeds were seen by all. Yet he had a terrible temper. His wife and children were emotionally, psychologically, and verbally abused. But not physically. And NO one had a clue about him. And if they did they never said anything. Well all but his adoptive mother. She said things here and there over the years. She was not at all close with him. In fact I am totally confident that she was scared of him. She had made mention of putting him in a hospital for psychiatric care when he was younger. Acknowledging that there was something not right about him.

I could go on & on, but I won’t. The point is is that I think BG is A LOT like my ex BIL. I strongly feel that he comes off as a kind, loving, generous, giving, accepting of others, to all, to everyone (mostly everyone), but secretly has a hidden DARK (x 8) side.

But that’s just, my opinion only.

And as a side note, I think that if, and or when BG is caught, that an accessory to the crime will also be brought to light. JMO.

You have described almost to a tee, one of my best friend’s husband. I and tons of others in town were completely fooled by him for 20+ years. Behind closed doors he was someone else entirely. My friend revealed to me five years ago the lying and raging she had endured for 30 years. I frankly think he’s a psychopath. They are separated now.
I think BG could definitely be a sociopath or psychopath, hiding his true self from people and I think LE really believes that.
I also think it’s possible he could just be a mean violent person like JBC.

 

[UnapologeticallyAspie]

I personally feel that BG is living a double life, and is a sociopath.
I once knew one personally. He was my only in my life because he was my ex-husband’s, sister’s husband. He had a double life in a state that was on the other side of the country. And had many affairs while living this double life of his. Even when he was caught he kept going, as if he didn’t give a ****. Which of course he didn’t because he felt nothing.
He was charismatic, a great conversationalist, could talk his way into jobs, and manipulated everyone, he got along with everyone, was liked by everyone, he threw amazing, over the top parties, providing everyone with food and drink, paying for all activities, was overly/extremely generous with everyone, with the exception of being generous with his wife. He was extremely controlling with money when she spent money on herself. But also extravagant with his gifts to her, and with his family. But only IF his deeds were seen by all. Yet he had a terrible temper. His wife and children were emotionally, psychologically, and verbally abused. But not physically. And NO one had a clue about him. And if they did they never said anything. Well all but his adoptive mother. She said things here and there over the years. She was not at all close with him. In fact I am totally confident that she was scared of him. She had made mention of putting him in a hospital for psychiatric care when he was younger. Acknowledging that there was something not right about him.

I could go on & on, but I won’t. The point is is that I think BG is A LOT like my ex BIL. I strongly feel that he comes off as a kind, loving, generous, giving, accepting of others, to all, to everyone (mostly everyone), but secretly has a hidden DARK (x 8) side.

But that’s just, my opinion only.

And as a side note, I think that if, and or when BG is caught, that an accessory to the crime will also be brought to light. JMO.

I am only replying to myself because I cannot edit it, as it’s been over 1 hour.

With that being said I wrote the above BEFORE I read post #871, and #872, because when I began reading tonight I started at page 38.
I had no idea that others also shared my opinion. Or at least partially.

 

[MistyWaters]

As others have answered, Leazenby answered "killed where they were found" not once, but twice in the Carroll County Comet Q&A that he did in February. Source: County Sheriff answers double homicide questions from readers | Carroll County Comet

In addition, in the podcast Scene of the Crime: A New Direction, minute 50:10: Kelsi asks Carter, can he clear up his remarks regarding The Shack? Did the girls die in a shack? Carter's answer: "There was no shack." Source: ‎Scene of the Crime on Apple Podcasts

IMO there is zero chance LE are lying about this or misdirecting for some reason. If they didn't want the public to know that the girls were killed elsewhere, they'd say "no comment." The fact that they are telling us the girls were killed where they were found, when they've confirmed little else, is significant.

Plus, it would seem totally ridiculous for LE to engage in code talk with the killer during a public press conference — “psst, we know about the shack!” — while also stating “You want to know what we know”. Total contradiction for LE to then go ahead and tell the killer what they know.

There was no shack, other than the title of the movie and book.

JMO