Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #136

[FrostedGlass]

I took a path last Fall from the lower trail to the main trail, a really easy path and you can see each trail from one another towards the top of the lower trail, anyway. That path led to the fence barrier on the main trail.

The woods are dense in parts and not too dense in others.

That seems to be a really nice little area at the bottom of 505. I've often wondered if BG was hanging around down there, came back up to the top and that's when he spotted the girls.

 

[UnapologeticallyAspie]

It's all due to denial, which is a powerful thing. @MistyWaters explained it perfectly.

Denial AND disassociation. They are similar but not exactly the same. We can choose to be in denial but we don’t necessarily choose to disassociate especially when something is traumatizing. And maybe even perhaps compartmentalization. Though I think that that is more along the lines of denial, because you can choose to compartmentalize versus disassociating yourself is some thing that you’re mind does unconsciously, or unknowingly to protect yourself mentally from something that you have no control over. MOO.

 

[UnapologeticallyAspie]

Has anyone taken a look at this Bridge Hunter article?

One of the entries in 2008 gave very specific directions and was very detail oriented about how to access the bridge.
I have copied and paste did it from the article and below have attached the link if anybody is interested in reading all of the other posts from other people.

“A long way to the bottom, spans a canyon with Deer Creek at the bottom. At east end of Delphi Historic Trail System. Leave Delphi on St. Hwy. 25 north turn east on 300N - just past former RR overpass, now part of trail system. Follow 300N approx. 1/2 mile, SMALL parking area on south side - trail system sign at parking area. Follow trail till it intersects with former RR bed ( now groomed trail ) turn left and follow to brigde - 1/4 mile. WARNING - STRAIGHT DROP OFF AT ABUTTEMENTS - LONG LONG WAY TO THE CREEK BELOW !”

If you so choose to do so, click on the link it also includes many pics from then from the man that wrote that entry as well as other posters comments, and their photos.

The point that I am trying to make is that if someone was interested in Bridges, and or trestles, and or decommissioned old railroads, or even looking for a place, off the beaten path but not too much off, where they could have a lot of privacy, then this article may have popped into their google search.
Just a thought. And MOO.

MON - Deer Creek High Bridge

 

[AC4RD]

The thing is we don’t know if LE is holding back anything ... considering the professional expertise invested into solving this case, including ISP and FBI, I just can’t believe police incompetence is even an issue.

I agree entirely with this--JMHO, of course. I think anything LE is holding back is something--and I'm guessing and even hoping there are such items/data--that will be crucial in finding/convicting the murderer(s). And as you say, there have been so many dedicated LE officers from multiple agencies, that I find it difficult to believe that the police are just overlooking something, or let some incompetence have a free ride. Just my opinion, but if they are holding back evidence, they're doing it for a very important reason. Fingers crossed for them--and for justice.

 

[somequestions]

I think it would depend if this person knew beyond a doubt the guilty person was involved - or if they just had vague suspicions.

Emotional denial can be a powerful defence mechanism. I would imagine it could be similar to a person who’s partner is involved in an extramarital affair - the spouse noticing different behaviour and unusual situations but at the same time convincing themselves nothing is wrong, it must be all in their head. Or a parent of a child who’s attempting to hide their involvement with unsavoury characters. Denial protects us as we typically do not actively welcome shock, fear, despair, upheaval or drama into our personal lives.

The family and LE continue to devote commendable effort to sustain focus on this case through the media rather than allowing the case to be forgotten. Perhaps these efforts will prove key in eventually motivating another person to acknowledge their suspicions at some point in the future?

JMO

If I remember correctly and someone can correct me if I am wrong, but I watched a tv program about the Unabomber. One thing I never knew was that he was turned in by his own brother. It turns out when the Unabomber wanted the manifesto published in the papers, his brother picked up the newspaper and could tell by the writing and the ideas expressed that it was his brother. But because he seemed to be very sure, the brother did what he thought was the right thing.

When the Unabomber, Ted Kaczynski, was brought in by investigators he was obviously very surprised that LE found him. So he asked the question "How did you find me?" and if I remember correctly, LE told him the truth. Someone correct me if I am wrong. I think at some point the family probably would have told him anyway. I think the special I saw was about family members who are from a killer's family and how they live with the last name, etc.

In the Delphi case, there is always the possibility that a family member may recognize the man from Liberty German's phone video, but I think it will be very difficult to be sure about it. Let's assume for a moment the real killer is 58 years old and lives in South Dakota. This is an example. Now they research the case before submitting a tip because they want to be sure and the only thing they have to go on is what everyone else knows. The man responsible is the man pictured in the second sketch who is between the ages of 18-40 but may be younger than his true age. I do not see 58 years old in that second sketch and the person who may have information but not be sure about it is probably going to think the same thing, especially if they are thinking about turning in their family member. There are others too who do not do it because of denial, but I wonder if that is the case in the Delphi murders.

We also have to remember that not everyone has a deep family history of aunts, uncles, nephews, and nieces. In certain cultures this is seen as completely normal. Not everyone has this in their lives.

But like so many ideas and theories, you cannot begin to discuss their veracity until the case is solved.

 

[MistyWaters]

If I remember correctly and someone can correct me if I am wrong, but I watched a tv program about the Unabomber. One thing I never knew was that he was turned in by his own brother. It turns out when the Unabomber wanted the manifesto published in the papers, his brother picked up the newspaper and could tell by the writing and the ideas expressed that it was his brother. But because he seemed to be very sure, the brother did what he thought was the right thing.

When the Unabomber, Ted Kaczynski, was brought in by investigators he was obviously very surprised that LE found him. So he asked the question "How did you find me?" and if I remember correctly, LE told him the truth. Someone correct me if I am wrong. I think at some point the family probably would have told him anyway. I think the special I saw was about family members who are from a killer's family and how they live with the last name, etc.

In the Delphi case, there is always the possibility that a family member may recognize the man from Liberty German's phone video, but I think it will be very difficult to be sure about it. Let's assume for a moment the real killer is 58 years old and lives in South Dakota. This is an example. Now they research the case before submitting a tip because they want to be sure and the only thing they have to go on is what everyone else knows. The man responsible is the man pictured in the second sketch who is between the ages of 18-40 but may be younger than his true age. I do not see 58 years old in that second sketch and the person who may have information but not be sure about it is probably going to think the same thing, especially if they are thinking about turning in their family member. There are others too who do not do it because of denial, but I wonder if that is the case in the Delphi murders.

We also have to remember that not everyone has a deep family history of aunts, uncles, nephews, and nieces. In certain cultures this is seen as completely normal. Not everyone has this in their lives.

But like so many ideas and theories, you cannot begin to discuss their veracity until the case is solved.

From Feb/17 to July/18 no age range was mentioned by LE.

Then from July/18 until April/19 the suggested age of the suspect was 40s to 50s.

So I don’t think it’s too plausible that somebody might’ve been suspicious of a 58 year old male from South Dakota for over two years but yet did nothing during that length of time. If that were so, the chances are just as great they’d stay mum for four or five or ten years or more, regardless that LE reduced the probable age bracket during the prior two years.

But if someone was quite certain they knew the identity of the killer and was ready to turn him in, I can’t imagine why they wouldn’t contact LE to talk about it, regardless of his age. LE have never categorically stated only one person was definitely involved.

 

[Yemelyan]

I was reading this older article and it had an interesting quote from Leazenby. Normally we think of him as being one member of LE who downplayed any ongoing threat to the community but on March 4th, 2017 he said this:

You want to trust your neighbor but to a certain degree you're not real sure if you can," he said.

Spreading fear and paranoia is the last the he wants to do, he said, but added he encourages residents to be "mindful and watchful of their environments as they go out."

Source: Drawing closer: Residents report boost in caution after Delphi teen slayings

 

[somequestions]

From Feb/17 to July/18 no age range was mentioned by LE.

Then from July/18 until April/19 the suggested age of the suspect was 40s to 50s.

So I don’t think it’s too plausible that somebody might’ve been suspicious of a 58 year old male from South Dakota for over two years but yet did nothing during that length of time. If that were so, the chances are just as great they’d stay mum for four or five or ten years or more, regardless that LE reduced the probable age bracket during the prior two years.

But if someone was quite certain they knew the identity of the killer and was ready to turn him in, I can’t imagine why they wouldn’t contact LE to talk about it, regardless of his age. LE have never categorically stated only one person was definitely involved.

Yeah, but how do people look at the case today? That is what matters. In my opinion they look at the case based on the last press conference in April 2019.

I think what LE did they decided the video was too blurry, low resolution by April 2019 so they picked this eyewitness sketch as a possible suspect. It was a complete total guess because they have no idea who is responsible for the murders of Abigail Williams and Liberty German. They figured maybe this unidentified person walked back to the car parked near the trail.

Whether it was one or two people does it really matter if you do not know who they are? LE always tells people that it is a "possibility" it could be more than one person, but do you actually believe that?

For all anyone knows the Delphi murder may have died during the pandemic and this case will go on for years.

 

[MistyWaters]

Yeah, but how do people look at the case today? That is what matters. In my opinion they look at the case based on the last press conference in April 2019.

I think what LE did they decided the video was too blurry, low resolution by April 2019 so they picked this eyewitness sketch as a possible suspect. It was a complete total guess because they have no idea who is responsible for the murders of Abigail Williams and Liberty German. They figured maybe this unidentified person walked back to the car parked near the trail.

Whether it was one or two people does it really matter if you do not know who they are? LE always tells people that it is a "possibility" it could be more than one person, but do you actually believe that?

For all anyone knows the Delphi murder may have died during the pandemic and this case will go on for years.

My thoughts would be - If I was close to another person who I began to suspect was involved in a murder, it’s really not my responsibility to fit the details to any one crime so I’d just report whatever I was aware of to police and allow them take it from there.

I’m mirroring this from a true life situation regarding a break-in to our garage. I noticed the overhead door to the alley was open before I went to bed because the garage light was on, checked things out, some things were moved around but nothing was missing so didn’t think it was worth reporting as maybe we accidentally left the door unlocked, locked everything up again, went to bed. But we discovered the next morning there were numerous other break-ins during the night in the same area, including the next door neighbours house, not home at the time. The police officer gave me heck after asking me why I didn’t report our garage break-in at the time I noticed it “It’s not up to you to decide what’s important or not. That’s our job and we might know things you don’t.” I thought that was really great advice!

Yes, unfortunately a significant number of murder cases go unsolved and the unknown becomes buried in the past as time moves on. I think the best we can hope for is this case will prove to be an exception.

 

[minazoe]

this might be off topic..so apologies in advance...

This article from the post is rather interesting..some insight on serial killers..in case you wonder they have any conscience etc...

Couple seduced serial killers Ramirez, Dahmer, Gacy by mail

 

[SMK777]

this might be off topic..so apologies in advance...

This article from the post is rather interesting..some insight on serial killers..in case you wonder they have any conscience etc...

Couple seduced serial killers Ramirez, Dahmer, Gacy by mail

Very interesting. I read a book by a young attorney who did the same: Pretended to be gay ( he wasn’t) and wrote letters to John Wayne Gacy, Jeffrey Dahmer, and quite a few others. He received collect phone calls from them and even visited Gacy in prison.

After his book came out, he committed suicide. I always believed there was a connection. His name was Jason Michael Moss.

 

[helpfulcharlie]

Very interesting. I read a book by a young attorney who did the same: Pretended to be gay ( he wasn’t) and wrote letters to John Wayne Gacy, Jeffrey Dahmer, and quite a few others. He received collect phone calls from them and even visited Gacy in prison.

After his book came out, he committed suicide. I always believed there was a connection. His name was Jason Michael Moss.

As much as my curiosity drives me to contact some of the perpetrators of violent crimes, my sanity and safety, and that of my family, is a much stronger drive NOT to.

 

[Caylee Advocate]

BP or MP, neither was a party to the actual conversation. It was between FSG and DG. I'd like to hear an interview with one or both, but as I said one of the two, DG, according to Kelsie, has no desire to make any public interviews or statements.

Was there a reason given as to why DG didn't want to do interviews? Just curious and not meant as an accusatory question.

 

[JnRyan]

Was there a reason given as to why DG didn't want to do interviews? Just curious and not meant as an accusatory question.

Kelsi and Gray Hughes talk about DG about 2:11:30 into this podcast. The only time I can recall it being discussed.

Simply put, he is not comfortable with speaking publicly and Kelsi is OK with that aspect.

 

[CNYDarkStar]

I think it would depend if this person knew beyond a doubt the guilty person was involved - or if they just had vague suspicions.

Emotional denial can be a powerful defence mechanism. I would imagine it could be similar to a person who’s partner is involved in an extramarital affair - the spouse noticing different behaviour and unusual situations but at the same time convincing themselves nothing is wrong, it must be all in their head. Or a parent of a child who’s attempting to hide their involvement with unsavoury characters. Denial protects us as we typically do not actively welcome shock, fear, despair, upheaval or drama into our personal lives.

The family and LE continue to devote commendable effort to sustain focus on this case through the media rather than allowing the case to be forgotten. Perhaps these efforts will prove key in eventually motivating another person to acknowledge their suspicions at some point in the future?

JMO

If I remember correctly and someone can correct me if I am wrong, but I watched a tv program about the Unabomber. One thing I never knew was that he was turned in by his own brother. It turns out when the Unabomber wanted the manifesto published in the papers, his brother picked up the newspaper and could tell by the writing and the ideas expressed that it was his brother. But because he seemed to be very sure, the brother did what he thought was the right thing.

When the Unabomber, Ted Kaczynski, was brought in by investigators he was obviously very surprised that LE found him. So he asked the question "How did you find me?" and if I remember correctly, LE told him the truth. Someone correct me if I am wrong. I think at some point the family probably would have told him anyway. I think the special I saw was about family members who are from a killer's family and how they live with the last name, etc.

In the Delphi case, there is always the possibility that a family member may recognize the man from Liberty German's phone video, but I think it will be very difficult to be sure about it. Let's assume for a moment the real killer is 58 years old and lives in South Dakota. This is an example. Now they research the case before submitting a tip because they want to be sure and the only thing they have to go on is what everyone else knows. The man responsible is the man pictured in the second sketch who is between the ages of 18-40 but may be younger than his true age. I do not see 58 years old in that second sketch and the person who may have information but not be sure about it is probably going to think the same thing, especially if they are thinking about turning in their family member. There are others too who do not do it because of denial, but I wonder if that is the case in the Delphi murders.

We also have to remember that not everyone has a deep family history of aunts, uncles, nephews, and nieces. In certain cultures this is seen as completely normal. Not everyone has this in their lives.

But like so many ideas and theories, you cannot begin to discuss their veracity until the case is solved.

Good point.

My thoughts would be - If I was close to another person who I began to suspect was involved in a murder, it’s really not my responsibility to fit the details to any one crime so I’d just report whatever I was aware of to police and allow them take it from there.

I’m mirroring this from a true life situation regarding a break-in to our garage. I noticed the overhead door to the alley was open before I went to bed because the garage light was on, checked things out, some things were moved around but nothing was missing so didn’t think it was worth reporting as maybe we accidentally left the door unlocked, locked everything up again, went to bed. But we discovered the next morning there were numerous other break-ins during the night in the same area, including the next door neighbours house, not home at the time. The police officer gave me heck after asking me why I didn’t report our garage break-in at the time I noticed it “It’s not up to you to decide what’s important or not. That’s our job and we might know things you don’t.” I thought that was really great advice!

Yes, unfortunately a significant number of murder cases go unsolved and the unknown becomes buried in the past as time moves on. I think the best we can hope for is this case will prove to be an exception.

So imagine how many things/suspects are not being reported because of small things like this...

 

[Awsi Dooger]

There is no such thing as underneath the bridge on the north side. The creek is wide in that area with no way to cross. It is a steep drop off. That's why the 505 trail is forced to gradually slope down to creek level, far to the right and away from the bridge.

The water was high on February 13, 2017. But I found out the hard way in November 2019 that the creek is not crossable in that area even when the water level is considerably lower. I crossed the bridge one way and decided no chance I was crossing it on the way back. I thought I could walk back underneath the bridge and cross Deer Creek near the north side of the bridge, to gather the 505 trail at bottom and ascend. To my surprise that was not available at all. The creek dominates that area, with natural unkept grounds. That's why I continue to emphasize this is not a park. I could not even locate the bottom of the 505 trail on the opposite side, let alone have any to get there. Consequently I had to traipse along Bridge Creek for a long time before finding a large downed log and a Wallenda opportunity that proved successful.

Also, don't bother with the notion that anyone crossed the 850 foot bridge and then walked all the way back to underneath the bridge just beyond the creek. I did that by necessity. Locals don't do that. Maybe some kids playing in the area and using the gravel access road would sometimes be near the creek in that area. Nobody using the trails goes down there:

 

[JnRyan]

There was a Hollandsburg IN massacre on Valentines Day in 1977 by a guy and his three friends who was said to have idolized Charles Manson. A s t r e t c h but another Manson fan on a 4oth anniversary?

1977 Hollandsburg massacre left 4 dead, survivor to testify

Maybe a stretch, but I can't imagine that it is too much of a stretch to be ignored. Israel Keys supposedly researched Ted Bundy. I wouldn't doubt there are other serial killers who have done the same regarding a previous serial killer. AND if we take the serial killer aspect out and look at ALL killers, we might find more.

 

[JnRyan]

Regarding the dynamics of turning in a suspected killer the matter may not seem to the same to the person who has the knowledge as it does to some of us. The convicted spy, John Walker, had someone who knew. His wife at the time (for 8 years) and later his ex. For another 8 years after the divorce she spent most of it in denial and she didn't just suspect, she KNEW. For 2 or 3 years before Walker's arrest she then started calling the FBI while she was drunk and wasn't taken seriously. When she found out that Walker after his arrest recruited their son she stated she regretted calling a tip. She said if she knew her son was also involved she would not have made the call. And MANY lives were lost because of Walker's giving the Soviets classified documents.

$325K is out there for someone who can call in a tip. But for whatever reason maybe they value something more than the money. Of course, LE may have already received the TIP. Look at the Tara Grinstead case where a man called the GA Bureau of Investigation (GBI) five or six years before the GBI made an arrest from another tip and said the suspect had never been 'on their radar'. When asked about the tip called in years earlier, the GBI really had no good answer why they didn't act on it.

 

[UnderstandBlue]

Was there a reason given as to why DG didn't want to do interviews? Just curious and not meant as an accusatory question.

Kelsi addresses it here:

https://www.investigationdiscovery....german-streams-youtube-video-to-debunk-rumors

 

[helpfulcharlie]

Was there a reason given as to why DG didn't want to do interviews? Just curious and not meant as an accusatory question.

Well, I don't know if it's HIS reason, but I know if I'm ever close to a murder I'm not giving any interviews. After 11 years on this site, the one thing I know is y'all will pick apart every single word I say and work it to death, LOL.