Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #136

[urbancoyote]

Great, thanks SSN. Makes you think he immediately pulled out a weapon then, or they could have just ran down the hill away from him. Again, going by small clip, I would assume they'd be faster than him.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

Great, thanks SSN. Makes you think he immediately pulled out a weapon then, or they could have just ran down the hill away from him. Again, going by small clip, I would assume they'd be faster than him.

Both girls were athletic so they knew how to run definitely, but the terrain is brutal so that could be a big equalizer. Also, it’s possible the awful condition of the bridge makes it appear BG is a lot slower than he actually is. A lot of people see the two second clip of him on the bridge and think there is something wrong with his leg. I’m not one of them.

 

[SMK777]

Ok I am new to this one, and its probably been covered, but there are 100s of pages, so....
What is the general consensus on how the guy on the bridge caught up with the girls? The photo shows him what, 20 yards away? And As I understand it, the girls are at that stage off the bridge. He is not a quick mover, going by the small clip. They are clearly alarmed by him, so how did they let him catch up, basically where they stood?! If that info is all correct, then doesn't that leave us with 2 potential scenarios - 1. That he called their names (therefore he is known to them, or somehow gives them the impression he knows them) and this caused them to not run away , or 2, there was a second person behind them. Something stopped them from running, so what was it?

Although they felt uneasy, the girls tragically did not know they were in mortal danger. Had they known this, they could easily have run off the bridge and onto private property, where they could have, if stopped by an irate owner, yelled for them to call 911.

 

[MistyWaters]

Although they felt uneasy, the girls tragically did not know they were in mortal danger. Had they known this, they could easily have run off the bridge and onto private property, where they could have, if stopped by an irate owner, yelled for them to call 911.

Or called 911 themselves. I agree, even if they were uneasy of this man who was about to walk past them, it appears nothing was obvious enough to indicate he posed a serious threat.

But I don’t believe the perp was physically disabled in any way.

 

[MistyWaters]

Ok I am new to this one, and its probably been covered, but there are 100s of pages, so....
What is the general consensus on how the guy on the bridge caught up with the girls? The photo shows him what, 20 yards away? And As I understand it, the girls are at that stage off the bridge. He is not a quick mover, going by the small clip. They are clearly alarmed by him, so how did they let him catch up, basically where they stood?! If that info is all correct, then doesn't that leave us with 2 potential scenarios - 1. That he called their names (therefore he is known to them, or somehow gives them the impression he knows them) and this caused them to not run away , or 2, there was a second person behind them. Something stopped them from running, so what was it?

According to GH videos (a WS approved source) and his analysis of the background and railroad ties, Libby was about 80 feet away when she captured him on her cellphone video.

You ask good questions, these are things we’ve all wondered about with no obvious answers.

 

[urbancoyote]

The other thing I noticed, and I'm just throwing this out there for opinions, but, this guy walks down the right hand side of the bridge. Now I am a right hander and if I ever walk down a narrow walkway, especially a dangerous one, I would walk down the left hand side (or the middle), as this leaves my strong hand available if I were to trip/fall. I dont think this would even be a conscious choice, it just makes sense. Does this fact make him a potential leftie?

 

[Justice101]

In my opinion, he was walking towards them and they froze. This is very common... running from him when his intentions were not known would have been the right thing to do. .but only in our eyes because we know ultimately what happened to them. In 99% of other cases, he walks by or strikes up an odd conversation, they keep their distance and then make up something so they can leave like "our parents are waiting for us" and they head back across the bridge.

Bottom line, they were trapped at the end. They knew they were trapped and they just hoped he would walk right by.

But he didn't.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

The other thing I noticed, and I'm just throwing this out there for opinions, but, this guy walks down the right hand side of the bridge. Now I am a right hander and if I ever walk down a narrow walkway, especially a dangerous one, I would walk down the left hand side (or the middle), as this leaves my strong hand available if I were to trip/fall. I dont think this would even be a conscious choice, it just makes sense. Does this fact make him a potential leftie?

It could be he was walking on that side to avoid a bad section of the bridge so who knows. That is interesting though. I thought about it, and I think you are right in that your handedness might influence where you walk. I’m left handed and yes I think I probably would walk on the right side....but probably the middle on this crazy bridge and I’d probably be crawling!
Also, early on, people looking at the initial picture of BG noted what looked like a gun in his right pocket turned in a way that seemed to indicate he was left handed.

 

[Falling Down]

Great, thanks SSN. Makes you think he immediately pulled out a weapon then, or they could have just ran down the hill away from him. Again, going by small clip, I would assume they'd be faster than him.

The "hill" is steep and a person would not be able to run down it. Another fact of the case that I believe BG used to his advantage, while planning his fantasy. The vertical drop is around 30 feet.

Above the letter O in "Investigation" @ 1:04 you can see the area in question, steep drop down to the driveway, area by the end of the bridge is wooded.

 

[MistyWaters]

The "hill" is steep and a person would not be able to run down it. Another fact of the case that I believe BG used to his advantage, while planning his fantasy. The vertical drop is around 30 feet.

Above the letter O in "Investigation" @ 1:04 you can see the area in question, steep drop down to the driveway, area by the end of the bridge is wooded.

Yes “down the hill” is very steep. The drop from the bridge trail down to the private driveway is also very evident at the beginning of JM’s video here -

 

[Slawsb]

notice they are kinds of blue eyes that look different in different lights.. they appear black most of times

My eyes are dark blue and I've had people think I have Brown Eyes

 

[Charlot123]

The other thing I noticed, and I'm just throwing this out there for opinions, but, this guy walks down the right hand side of the bridge. Now I am a right hander and if I ever walk down a narrow walkway, especially a dangerous one, I would walk down the left hand side (or the middle), as this leaves my strong hand available if I were to trip/fall. I dont think this would even be a conscious choice, it just makes sense. Does this fact make him a potential leftie?

I think that BG could have favored the stronger side of the bridge.

I believe that he looked concerning, but only in one way, and this prompted Libby to take the video, but in many other ways, he looked like any stranger crossing the bridge, so the girls did not feel too scared.

 

[jg580]

Yes “down the hill” is very steep. The drop from the bridge trail down to the private driveway is also very evident at the beginning of JM’s video here -

It does look quite steep but doesnt JM have another video where she walks down it fairly easily? I may be confusing things though...

 

[jg580]

I'm not sure if I'm able to ask this here so if not allowed please let me know and ill delete but I'm just trying to get a mental handle on the timeline of known events. Do we know if FSG walked across the bridge and thats when he met up with DG? Or could he have come from one of the other trails? I'm unfamiliar with the layout of the trails to know how they intersect.

 

[MistyWaters]

It does look quite steep but doesnt JM have another video where she walks down it fairly easily? I may be confusing things though...

I think I might recall that as well however I think she walked from the north side, not down the hill on the south side toward the river.

 

[MistyWaters]

I'm not sure if I'm able to ask this here so if not allowed please let me know and ill delete but I'm just trying to get a mental handle on the timeline of known events. Do we know if FSG walked across the bridge and thats when he met up with DG? Or could he have come from one of the other trails? I'm unfamiliar with the layout of the trails to know how they intersect.

No DG never walked across the bridge.

GH tries to figure out a timeline at about 11:00 into this video.

 

[Falling Down]

I'm not sure if I'm able to ask this here so if not allowed please let me know and ill delete but I'm just trying to get a mental handle on the timeline of known events. Do we know if FSG walked across the bridge and thats when he met up with DG? Or could he have come from one of the other trails? I'm unfamiliar with the layout of the trails to know how they intersect.

Attached image is oriented where South is "up"/towards the top of it. Pulled from Google Earth, image is from April of '17. Main trail is clearly visible and some of the Girard Trail is too, but I gave it a light green trace. Trails intersect at light green and the short orange trail. MHB is in the upper left corner.

 

[GA_Peach]

I get that a sketch is not a photograph. I don’t expect BG to look exactly like (or even all that similar to) the man depicted in either sketch. I also know that eyewitness accounts are not infallible. In fact, eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable. No two people will ever describe XYZ the exact same way — even if they know what to pay attention to ahead of time and even when they know they will be asked to describe it later. Perception is a much more complicated beast than that.

Here is my problem —

If the man depicted in Sketch #1 is not the same man depicted in Sketch #2 (which is what we’ve been told by LE), it makes absolutely zero sense to say the suspect will likely resemble a combination of the two.

Either

Witness(es) #1 saw a man and described the man depicted in Sketch #1
Witness #2 saw a different man and described the man depicted in Sketch #2

OR

Witness(es) #1 and Witness #2 saw the same man and described him in vastly different ways

But, it can’t be both.

While a “combination BG” is certainly plausible in the later scenario, LE says the opposite is true — the man depicted in the first sketch is not the same man depicted in the second sketch.

And herein lies my confusion.

I share your confusion, and I agree with everything you said in principle. However, I think that there is a third scenario - one which doesn't involve two witnesses.

One sketch was not based on any witness account. Instead, it was based off the still/video retrieved from the cell phone. This sketch is how detectives thought BG would look based on what they saw.

Second sketch is based on witness testimony.

This scenario is my personal theory. Detectives disregarded the witness testimony and sketch in favor of the video, Because of the video, detectives created a sketch of BG. They, in effect, used the video as a witness. However, I believe that something came to light that let them know that they were mistaken, and the actual witness sketch was a more accurate representation of the killer. It's a representation of the same person, the girls' killer, but the person in sketch 1 is almost a figment of the imagination in the sense that he was not generated by witness testimony. And yet, the first sketch will still resemble BG because it was based off a video of him.

 

[Yemelyan]

I share your confusion, and I agree with everything you said in principle. However, I think that there is a third scenario - one which doesn't involve two witnesses.

One sketch was not based on any witness account. Instead, it was based off the still/video retrieved from the cell phone. This sketch is how detectives thought BG would look based on what they saw.

Second sketch is based on witness testimony.

This scenario is my personal theory. Detectives disregarded the witness testimony and sketch in favor of the video, Because of the video, detectives created a sketch of BG. They, in effect, used the video as a witness. However, I believe that something came to light that let them know that they were mistaken, and the actual witness sketch was a more accurate representation of the killer. It's a representation of the same person, the girls' killer, but the person in sketch 1 is almost a figment of the imagination in the sense that he was not generated by witness testimony. And yet, the first sketch will still resemble BG because it was based off a video of him.

I don't know if the first sketch used any input from the video, but it definitely was not based 100% from it. There were human witnesses who contributed to the first-shared composite sketch.

We know this because when lead investigator Sgt. Holeman appeared with the victims' families at CrimeCon in 2018 (this was prior to the "new" or young BG sketch being released), he did a panel with reporter Ashleigh Banfield where he described how that original "old" BG composite sketch was developed:

Banfield: But there were witnesses if I’m not mistaken who were able to lend information that got you to the sketch [Sergeant Holeman nods affirmatively]. Can you tell me a little bit about the witnesses? Where did they come from, what did they see?

Holeman: I don’t want to go into great detail, but they were near or on the trail....Again, it takes a lot of time. I’m not a sketch artist. The FBI actually–an agent from the FBI–did the sketch. And you know, I think when somebody sketches it takes like, 10 minutes [shakes head ‘no’]. It takes several weeks. But to get the information, to find the people that we believe saw that person that day near the time of the murders, that takes months. So we had to locate these people, interview them, find out who they really saw. Did they really see the guy on the bridge from the video, or did they see Mike out there helping search, or did they see somebody else out there helping with the search? So we had to identify those people, and once we felt like we identified the people that actually saw the guy on the bridge, then the sketch itself took, again, several weeks. They sketched it, looked at it, “No…that’s not correct”. I will say that she still–[Clarification note: he quickly corrects his use of ‘she’ to ‘they’]—they, there’s a couple people— still aren’t convinced that’s the proper hat, but that’s the hat that the sketch artist could come up with as close to what the witnesses were describing.

The source for this transcript of the CrimeCon interview is: Delphi Murders CrimeCon Interview Transcript - CrimeLights

 

[MistyWaters]

I don't know if the first sketch used any input from the video, but it definitely was not based 100% from it. There were human witnesses who contributed to the first-shared composite sketch.

We know this because when lead investigator Sgt. Holeman appeared with the victims' families at CrimeCon in 2018 (this was prior to the "new" or young BG sketch being released), he did a panel with reporter Ashleigh Banfield where he described how that original "old" BG composite sketch was developed:

Banfield: But there were witnesses if I’m not mistaken who were able to lend information that got you to the sketch [Sergeant Holeman nods affirmatively]. Can you tell me a little bit about the witnesses? Where did they come from, what did they see?

Holeman: I don’t want to go into great detail, but they were near or on the trail....Again, it takes a lot of time. I’m not a sketch artist. The FBI actually–an agent from the FBI–did the sketch. And you know, I think when somebody sketches it takes like, 10 minutes [shakes head ‘no’]. It takes several weeks. But to get the information, to find the people that we believe saw that person that day near the time of the murders, that takes months. So we had to locate these people, interview them, find out who they really saw. Did they really see the guy on the bridge from the video, or did they see Mike out there helping search, or did they see somebody else out there helping with the search? So we had to identify those people, and once we felt like we identified the people that actually saw the guy on the bridge, then the sketch itself took, again, several weeks. They sketched it, looked at it, “No…that’s not correct”. I will say that she still–[Clarification note: he quickly corrects his use of ‘she’ to ‘they’]—they, there’s a couple people— still aren’t convinced that’s the proper hat, but that’s the hat that the sketch artist could come up with as close to what the witnesses were describing.

The source for this transcript of the CrimeCon interview is: Delphi Murders CrimeCon Interview Transcript - CrimeLights

In addition to Holeman’s comments, Leazenby referred to “a witness” as well. At the time I recall wondering how accurate would a witness’s memory be in creating a sketch months after the fact.

July 17, 2017
Witness aided in sketch of suspect in Indiana teens' deaths | National Post
“Carroll County Sheriff Tobe Leazenby said the witness saw the man walking near Delphi, about 60 miles (100 kilometres) northwest of Indianapolis, but only recently met with an FBI sketch artist to provide facial details for the rendering released by State Police…”