Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #136

[Ravenmoon]

I did find where the info about a gun came from, a Gray Hughes video, which we're allowed to link.

Anna heard Abby say, "Is that a gun? He's got a gun". Then LE letting Anna look at and listen to the video said to her after BG says, "Down the hill"...did you hear that? That noise was a gun cocking.

The whole explanation if things Anna saw and heard starts at around 48:00 in. The gun talk starts at around 51:00.

I feel like the information being taken from Grey Hughes videos are really more than we have had in a LONG time.
I find this video to be so informative in just a few short minutes.
Grey is saying that his information came from AW quite some time ago .
It is terribly sad in all honesty.
It seems that Abby was aware that this guy was behind her and makes comments about him having a gun.
Grey tells the audience that AW says there were no gun shot wounds on the girls bodies.
That would explain why no shots were heard.

Like so many others, I have a difficult time listening to GH , but since he is one of the few approved sources, I will listen to certain videos that he airs.

His information comes from family members as well as people connected to the family AFAIK.

JMO MOO AMOO

 

[Ravenmoon]

My brain cannot ever tolerate GH's show, and certainly not this guest.

Can somebody give us a short summary. For example, what shoe tree?

Starry has a great summary posted.
As to the Shoe Tree- I am not sure why it even came up.
As far as I can tell, it has no relation to the actual crime.

EBM to correct grammar


MOO JMO AMOO

 

[FrostedGlass]

I'm glad he brought up the woman, while walking her dog, who claimed to have seen him. I give some weight to that rumor; she may have been the one who saw a man doing something that LE should know about.

Just to clarify: it was a story about the woman. GH said he has never heard that story other than from one internet source.

 

[sunshineray]

Yesterday, Grey Hughes made a new video titled "Inside Info Guest" .
Since he is an approved source on Web sleuths, I am hoping that certain things brought up in that video could be the subject of discussion.

At about the 19:30 mark, the guest begins his interview.
The interview commences at about the hour and 17 minute mark.

There are a few things that may be worth discussing.

AMOO JMO MOO

Wow the thing that gets me if it's true that the girl's were killed on the other side of the creek and then carried or dragged across to where they were found, how in the heck did the killer not leave any DNA via skin cells, hair, sweat.

After placing the girls did killer then have to retrace his every footfall and drag marks, down and thru creek, up the bank, then through the woods, tidy it all before leaving the area? Doing all that and not leaving a forensic track? Who the heck is this guy?

If he did clean the wood and creek area up on the side the girls were taken from he must have then have left the trail system through the woods into private property because the "trail" ended on that side of the bridge (why Libby said to Abby, we can't go any further.

Did he then just follow the private road out?

I remember early on seeing a walking video of down the hill and then to the right. The banks of the creek were so steep to the left and there was an isolated area under trees to the right. I thought at the time, I wonder if that's were he was bringing them but they tried to run the other way down and to the creekside to get away.

Why didn't searchers find evidence of death on that side, no drag marks to the creek or across it? Libby's shoe was found on that side the next afternoon but just right before their discovery.

Didn't the Sheriff say at some point the girls were killed where they were found?

 

[Ravenmoon]

Wow the thing that gets me if it's true that the girl's were killed on the other side of the creek and then carried or dragged across to where they were found, how in the heck did the killer not leave any DNA via skin cells, hair, sweat.

After placing the girls did killer then have to retrace his every footfall and drag marks, down and thru creek, up the bank, then through the woods, tidy it all before leaving the area? Doing all that and not leaving a forensic track? Who the heck is this guy?

If he did clean the wood and creek area up on the side the girls were taken from he must have then have left the trail system through the woods into private property because the "trail" ended on that side of the bridge (why Libby said to Abby, we can't go any further.

Did he then just follow the private road out?

I remember early on seeing a walking video of down the hill and then to the right. The banks of the creek were so steep to the left and there was an isolated area under trees to the right. I thought at the time, I wonder if that's were he was bringing them but they tried to run the other way down and to the creekside to get away.

Why didn't searchers find evidence of death on that side, no drag marks to the creek or across it? Libby's shoe was found on that side the next afternoon but just right before their discovery.

Didn't the Sheriff say at some point the girls were killed where they were found?

I honestly believe that the entire conversation about them being killed across the creek is based on opinion due to Libby having been drug at some point.
I am not sure that ANY of that is being based of information that the caller or GH has received from an official source.
I will go back and listen again to see whether or not there is a statement either way.

MOO JMO AMOO

 

[FrostedGlass]

42:42 mm
They thought the killer was local because he knew one of the 3 easier ways to cross the creek. There were people in a boat east of the spot where L&A crossed. Guest found 2 places where you could cross but never went west of the bridge so he doesn't know the third one. The person telling Guest said that he didn't think he would be strong enough to drag Libby the distance she was dragged and that her wrists were really bruised. Guest says he's only 150(?) lbs but he thinks he could have dragged her on the flat spot so he took that to mean up an embankment and then to the spot BUT he was not told this.

 

[Trebor5591]

Perhaps he had a fake police badge. He wouldn't be the first killer to employ such a ruse.

I have always thought this as well. MOO, he showed them a badge, telling them the bridge was private property and that he would have to give them a citation for trespassing. His ticket book was at his car, however, and they would have to go "down the hill" to his car, parked alongside the private road there. At some point going down the hill, the girls got suspicious and bolted, and in the process, Libby lost her shoe. The girls ran across the creek to the murder site with the killer in pursuit. RIP Abby and Libby. May the Lord guide law enforcement through all deception straight to the killer.

 

[FrostedGlass]

I really, really wish we had drone footage of the north bank, beginning a little west of the beginning of the bridge and going east all the way past where the shack is... where W 300 N turns and goes east.

The embankment issue is problematic for me.

 

[MistyWaters]

….snipped to reply
Didn't the Sheriff say at some point the girls were killed where they were found?

Yes, LE have stated this various times.

County Sheriff answers double homicide questions from readers | Carroll County Comet
Q. Has it been determined the girls were killed where they were found?

A. Based on information known, yes.

Plus, if it’s difficult to get to where the bodies were found, is it reasonable to conclude a 200lb body could’ve been drug there?

Q. Ron Logan has stated on news programs the only way to get to the site is over difficult terrain and private property. Given the difficulty getting to where the bodies were found, many believe the killer(s) were familiar with the area. Do you as a law enforcement officer believe that as well?

A. Very much so. It is part of the reason why we continually feel it is a “local” or someone who was very familiar with the area.

 

[TTF14]

The girls were killed on the near side of the creek and transported to the far side.

So not only were they killed in broad daylight on an unseasonably warm day with no witnesses who even saw the girls there that day, but they were dragged across a creek and up a little hill? Two of them? Was it one by one they were dragged?

 

[sunshineray]

42:42 mm
They thought the killer was local because he knew one of the 3 easier ways to cross the creek. There were people in a boat east of the spot where L&A crossed. Guest found 2 places where you could cross but never went west of the bridge so he doesn't know the third one. The person telling Guest said that he didn't think he would be strong enough to drag Libby the distance she was dragged and that her wrists were really bruised. Guest says he's only 150(?) lbs but he thinks he could have dragged her on the flat spot so he took that to mean up an embankment and then to the spot BUT he was not told this.

I thought Guest said he was told that not "he" meaning BG or Guest couldn't have dragged LG that way and that far but that "he" meaning RL (the old guy who's property the girls were found on) couldn't have dragged LG. So Guest was saying his source was ruling out RL because he couldn't physically do it.

I can't wrap my head around the moving of the girls by BG from one side of the creek to the other, either carrying and/or dragging, and not leaving any DNA. Unless he wore gloves and dragged both across the creek, up the bank and into the woods.

What baffles me even more is GH having said in one of his earlier videos how he's very confident that BG left the area by the cemetery and that road. Remember that? This new info, if true, makes that seem unlikely unless after crossing back to the abduction side tidying up his trail of footfalls and drag marks, he then walks up or down the creek and then crosses back over to the cemetery side. Who the heck is this guy leaving no traces, being so calm and collected, taking the time after he's killed to clean it all up on the abduction side, knowing where to cross back and leave area God knows how?

Or were all his traces obliterated by searches through the night?

 

[sunshineray]

Yes, LE have stated this various times.

County Sheriff answers double homicide questions from readers | Carroll County Comet
Q. Has it been determined the girls were killed where they were found?

A. Based on information known, yes.

Plus, if it’s difficult to get to where the bodies were found, is it reasonable to conclude a 200lb body could’ve been drug there?

Q. Ron Logan has stated on news programs the only way to get to the site is over difficult terrain and private property. Given the difficulty getting to where the bodies were found, many believe the killer(s) were familiar with the area. Do you as a law enforcement officer believe that as well?

A. Very much so. It is part of the reason why we continually feel it is a “local” or someone who was very familiar with the area.

So then I guess if this new information is true, the girls were knocked out but not dead when transported across the creek.

This is some crazy stuff. To do all this physicality and not leave any forensics except one spot of touch DNA...possibly, not for sure.

 

[minazoe]

I think obliterated and lets face it..track marks in areas covered in dead leaves are not so stable and easy to detect , unless they are wet and mashed down..They do have foot prints though, so they have said.

 

[WildHuncher]

So not only were they killed in broad daylight on an unseasonably warm day with no witnesses who even saw the girls there that day, but they were dragged across a creek and up a little hill? Two of them? Was it one by one they were dragged?

I just went back and listened again, since some people didn't seem to hear what I heard. The caller was making constant reference to the ability to drag Libby considering "the distance she was dragged." It was GH who then introduced the idea that for the killer to have dragged them that far up an embankment, he must have killed or disabled them before crossing the creek.

So again I must apologize. I was recalling a rather long and wandering conversation listened to the night before. Inaccuracies and confabulations have crept in, it seems.

That podcast is no easier to listen to the second time. Some people just can't tell a story.

Regarding your question, I would assume one at a time for any carrying and / or dragging.

 

[TTF14]

Regarding your question, I would assume one at a time for any carrying and / or dragging.

Right. In broad daylight.

 

[sunshineray]

I just went back and listened again, since some people didn't seem to hear what I heard. The caller was making constant reference to the ability to drag Libby considering "the distance she was dragged." It was GH who then introduced the idea that for the killer to have dragged them that far up an embankment, he must have killed or disabled them before crossing the creek.

So again I must apologize. I was recalling a rather long and wandering conversation listened to the night before. Inaccuracies and confabulations have crept in, it seems.

That podcast is no easier to listen to the second time. Some people just can't tell a story.

Regarding your question, I would assume one at a time for any carrying and / or dragging.

If BG actually picked up and carried Abby, how did the forensics of him only show up (maybe) on one spot?

I hadn't heard about BG's footprints being isolated (someone just mentioned them having footprints) or collected. I do remember the Twitter picture posted by a news agency of a bag with boots in it being carried out of the meat packing plant when they had that bomb threat. Wonder if that was to try and match meat packer boots to footprints found?

 

[mi_hiker]

I thought Guest said he was told that not "he" meaning BG or Guest couldn't have dragged LG that way and that far but that "he" meaning RL (the old guy who's property the girls were found on) couldn't have dragged LG. So Guest was saying his source was ruling out RL because he couldn't physically do it.

I can't wrap my head around the moving of the girls by BG from one side of the creek to the other, either carrying and/or dragging, and not leaving any DNA. Unless he wore gloves and dragged both across the creek, up the bank and into the woods.

What baffles me even more is GH having said in one of his earlier videos how he's very confident that BG left the area by the cemetery and that road. Remember that? This new info, if true, makes that seem unlikely unless after crossing back to the abduction side tidying up his trail of footfalls and drag marks, he then walks up or down the creek and then crosses back over to the cemetery side. Who the heck is this guy leaving no traces, being so calm and collected, taking the time after he's killed to clean it all up on the abduction side, knowing where to cross back and leave area God knows how?

Or were all his traces obliterated by searches through the night?

I listened to the GH video but it wasn't an easy task, the entire video could have been condensed to about 10 minutes of meaningful information.

Can anyone clarify where Libby's shoe was found? On Grey's map it looks like it was off to the side of the down the hill area, opposite side of the creek from where the girls were found.

She could have lost it while running on her own of course, but there's also the possibility it came off in a struggle or while being dragged. She also could have tried to toss it to leave a trail, a level of awareness I definitely wouldn't put past her, although taking off a shoe mid run probably wouldn't really be feasible.

 

[FrostedGlass]

I thought Guest said he was told that not "he" meaning BG or Guest couldn't have dragged LG that way and that far but that "he" meaning RL (the old guy who's property the girls were found on) couldn't have dragged LG. So Guest was saying his source was ruling out RL because he couldn't physically do it.

I can't wrap my head around the moving of the girls by BG from one side of the creek to the other, either carrying and/or dragging, and not leaving any DNA. Unless he wore gloves and dragged both across the creek, up the bank and into the woods.

What baffles me even more is GH having said in one of his earlier videos how he's very confident that BG left the area by the cemetery and that road. Remember that? This new info, if true, makes that seem unlikely unless after crossing back to the abduction side tidying up his trail of footfalls and drag marks, he then walks up or down the creek and then crosses back over to the cemetery side. Who the heck is this guy leaving no traces, being so calm and collected, taking the time after he's killed to clean it all up on the abduction side, knowing where to cross back and leave area God knows how?

Or were all his traces obliterated by searches through the night?

The 44:50 MM is where he begins talking about not being strong enough to drag her. RL isn't mentioned until a little after that.

 

[TTF14]

When was Libby's phone found?

 

[sunshineray]

I listened to the GH video but it wasn't an easy task, the entire video could have been condensed to about 10 minutes of meaningful information.

Can anyone clarify where Libby's shoe was found? On Grey's map it looks like it was off to the side of the down the hill area, opposite side of the creek from where the girls were found.

She could have lost it while running on her own of course, but there's also the possibility it came off in a struggle or while being dragged. She also could have tried to toss it to leave a trail, a level of awareness I definitely wouldn't put past her, although taking off a shoe mid run probably wouldn't really be feasible.

Kelsei said it was on the abduction side of the creek.