GUILTY UK - Sarah Everard, 33, London, Clapham Common area, 3 Mar 2021 *Awaiting Sentencing*, #15

[annpats]

Apparently there had been a spate of burglaries in the area and one of the tactics was to use a lookout which I apparently fit the description of. They just asked for some details which someone seemed to pass to someone via a radio and to pat me down. This was in Bromley funnily enough around the time Couzens would have worked there at about 1am.

They were good natured, I did inform the main one who speaking to me I'd been half a second from kicking his car door back into him because of how dodgy they all looked (this was non-marked car and non-uniformed offices) and when they left they apologised for disturbing my night.

Aaaah, I see. Thank you. Yes, it is a dodgy way to apprehend and question innocent strangers. Is Bromley served by Kent Police or The Met?

 

[Dotta]

My betting is that they just had nothing particular on. Maybe he looked a bit like someone they knew was the local crim? Maybe it was unusual to see that type of person loitering in that area?

On a related note, and I'm conscious of not wanting to derail the thread here so will keep it brief. Back in the 90's and stretching back into the 1960's, my family had a reasonably large tobacco wholesaling business which went through several periods of being robbed or having attempts at its warehouse. During one of these periods my Uncle noticed an old Fiat (Miafiori, or something) parked across the road with four exceptionally unpleasant looking occupants essentially spilling out of it. We locked the doors and called the local control room be be greeted with a reply along the lines of oh, don't worry that's just some of our CID undercover guys keeping an eye on the place as we haven't seen X, Y or Z in a few days. or something to that effect.

Ha haha Thanks for a good laugh! That reminds me of some thrillers I love watching. Undercover cops always look suspicious.

 

[infinit]

Aaaah, I see. Thank you. Yes, it is a dodgy way to apprehend and question innocent strangers. Is Bromley served by Kent Police or The Met?

It's classed as Greater London so comes under Met, think Met goes out as far as Orpington.

 

[CptShadow]

I read a report from the former receptionist at the garage who worked with him- she said he was polite and respectful etc …
Looks like he changed a lot after leaving the garage??

There's also the issue that some of the negative reports could be exaggerated, either by the press, or by those telling their stories to the press (if money was offered). I'm not saying they're not true - but you're quite right: there ARE conflicting reports.

I go back to what I saw and heard of him in those YT videos. If I didn't know the backstory, I'd peg him as ordinary, well-spoken, middle class. Definitely NOT "chavvy" or "rough".

And since we're assessing how SE would possibly have reacted to him when encountering him, her first impression may have been pretty favourable - or at least, not in the least "concerned".

 

[CptShadow]

I just ran like crazy. Pure adrenaline - I will never forget this incident.

I'm glad you got away! That sounds scary. But that's the thing - the immediate reaction to adrenaline varies depending on the person and the circumstance. I find the 'scare cam' videos fascinating. In one, a boyfriend jumps out at his girlfriend from behind a bedroom door, when she believe he's in a different city. It's actually NOT funny, because the look of terror and fright on her face is very real. But before she realises it's him, she drops to the floor, right at his feet. I mean, if he HAD been a serial killer...

 

[CptShadow]

Yes, but it was reported that he drove for 90 mins without stop, right?

I think it was reported that the trip from Poynders to the woods would have taken that long - not that he necessarily made the trip within that time.

 

[CptShadow]

Most probably had baseball-type caps as that's what armed cops use and probably things like anti-stab vests and suchlike. Any police officer could make a pretty decent shout of being able to pretend to be on duty if they were that way inclined.

Good points. We know one of the figures on the CCTV was in dark clothing (presumably him). If he appeared in dark clothing, in a white car that looked not unlike police issue, and flashed his warrant card at her, the overall impression may well have been of a policeman in semi-formal training garb, or something.

 

[Dotta]

I'm glad you got away! That sounds scary. But that's the thing - the immediate reaction to adrenaline varies depending on the person and the circumstance. I find the 'scare cam' videos fascinating. In one, a boyfriend jumps out at his girlfriend from behind a bedroom door, when she believe he's in a different city. It's actually NOT funny, because the look of terror and fright on her face is very real. But before she realises it's him, she drops to the floor, right at his feet. I mean, if he HAD been a serial killer...

I was a teen myself then. My then PE teacher would be amazed as I wasnt very keen on PE lessons. But my body didnt let me down at that time. I wasnt even thinking, just flew. The instinctive reaction and strength still amaze me. We dont really know what we are capable of in the time of trial.

 

[Cherwell]

He was a serving police officer. He would have had a completely legitimate warrant card to prove it.
It was the middle of lockdown when police officers were questioning people they wouldn't normally be questioning. If he'd been on duty he could have legitimately questioned her about why she was out, where she'd been and where she was going because people were being fined for breaking lockdown. She would have no reason to know he wasn't on duty. She was behaving legally.
She was a law abiding citizen who'd probably never had contact with the police before. So if he asked her to sit in his car whilst he checked her story I imagine she'd have done so. I would have done.
Not only have the CPS said there was no link - I can't see how any link would have occurred. Different worlds, different life stages.

No, for various reasons I don't think they had met before.
But in general we need to be very open-minded about how people might know one another. The Internet brings a lot of people together whose paths wouldn't normally have crossed. Look at this forum as just one example. There are all sorts of things that two strangers might have in common - an interest in films or following a TV series and chatting online about it, being fans of the same band and possibly meeting up at gigs, etc. Many scenarios.

As for being law-abiding. At that time we weren't allowed to go inside other people's houses, although we could socialise outside with someone from a different household. I rather doubt that Sarah and the friend she visited stayed outdoors for several hours on a cold winter night (of course her friend can confirm either way). Not a serious misdemeanour, but if they had bent the rules it might have had an influence on how she reacted to a police officer.

 

[arrogantcat]

For anyone wondering, (I believe - please correct me if wrong) the best course of action if stopped by a police officer in a way that feels unsafe or uncertain to you or to request their badge number and call the non emergency line to check them out.
If they’re genuinely on duty, this should be possible to confirm - or at the very least, that it’s a genuine officer.

I’ve always been told that, providing you’re not resisting a significant arrest somehow, the police will be happy to allow this, especially in a situation like this (solo male and vulnerable female at night). Anyone can fake a warrant card these days - the same applies to ID from places like gas companies etc too.

Would doing this have helped Sarah? Impossible to say - it seems unlikely he’d have allowed her to make such a call.

But it’s interesting to consider that all our best “by fraud”abduction theories rely on him being a competent liar and actor, and on his randomly-chosen victim actually falling for his BS.
It’s sort of hard to imagine him doing a convincing job, given his ridiculous Romanian Pimp Gang fabrications.

He must have felt very confident, as he only had one shot at this really. If his victim got away and told people she’d been pulled by a police officer, then he couldn’t risk the same strategy again, really.

The most likely scenario in my opinion sees him flash his warrant, cuff her and take her phone, and then once she’s securely in his car with the doors locked, somehow restrained her even further. Cuff her hands behind the seat or something? I suppose serving officers may well have knowledge of effective ways to keep a passenger safely subdued.

He’d obviously premeditated the whole thing, although the close dates between his Amazon purchases and the actual crime suggest it was a snap decision to actually go ahead with it at this time.

 

[Dotta]

For anyone wondering, (I believe - please correct me if wrong) the best course of action if stopped by a police officer in a way that feels unsafe or uncertain to you or to request their badge number and call the non emergency line to check them out.
If they’re genuinely on duty, this should be possible to confirm - or at the very least, that it’s a genuine officer.

I’ve always been told that, providing you’re not resisting a significant arrest somehow, the police will be happy to allow this, especially in a situation like this (solo male and vulnerable female at night). Anyone can fake a warrant card these days - the same applies to ID from places like gas companies etc too.

Would doing this have helped Sarah? Impossible to say - it seems unlikely he’d have allowed her to make such a call.

But it’s interesting to consider that all our best “by fraud”abduction theories rely on him being a competent liar and actor, and on his randomly-chosen victim actually falling for his BS.
It’s sort of hard to imagine him doing a convincing job, given his ridiculous Romanian Pimp Gang fabrications.

He must have felt very confident, as he only had one shot at this really. If his victim got away and told people she’d been pulled by a police officer, then he couldn’t risk the same strategy again, really.

The most likely scenario in my opinion sees him flash his warrant, cuff her and take her phone, and then once she’s securely in his car with the doors locked, somehow restrained her even further. Cuff her hands behind the seat or something? I suppose serving officers may well have knowledge of effective ways to keep a passenger safely subdued.

He’d obviously premeditated the whole thing, although the close dates between his Amazon purchases and the actual crime suggest it was a snap decision to actually go ahead with it at this time.

He was spiralling into psychosis - "incidents" at McDonald's barely 3 days before, erratic behaviour noticed at work, depression at home as his wife claimed. He wasnt thinking straight.

 

[Italia]

What’s the story with the 14 year old? Not seen that one

 

[infinit]

He was spiralling into psychosis - "incidents" at McDonald's barely 3 days before, erratic behaviour noticed at work, depression at home as his wife claimed. He wasnt thinking straight.

Psychosis is primarily hallucinations and/or delusions. There is a huge gap between having a psychotic break and exposing yourself at a McDonald's and then raping and murdering. If his reality had become that warped where in his mind he was at the point of serving some spirit from the mythical land of the mushrooms for example then I expect his wife would have noticed more than him being slightly off.

Psychopath, sure.

Just my opinion.

 

[infinit]

There's also the issue that some of the negative reports could be exaggerated, either by the press, or by those telling their stories to the press (if money was offered). I'm not saying they're not true - but you're quite right: there ARE conflicting reports.

Hindsight bias is also a thing. Some of the things like the nickname seem a bit stronger. But overall, if someone is asked the question before/after they're told he's a murderer the answer might be different - Pretty much everyone has negative traits if you want to look for them.

 

[MsBetsy]

He was spiralling into psychosis - "incidents" at McDonald's barely 3 days before, erratic behaviour noticed at work, depression at home as his wife claimed. He wasnt thinking straight.

He may have been spiraling out of control, but I don't believe he was psychotic when he planned and carried out his crimes. He went to great lengths to plan and cover up the murder. He lied to detectives because he knew what he did was wrong and shameful. There is no indication that he was seeing or hearing things that weren't there. He invented the story about being threatened by sex traffickers, maybe based on his own experiences with sex workers. He probably had a whole library full of *advertiser censored*.

He may have a personality disorder or depression, but I think his actions show he was of sound mind when he carried out the murder. Maybe he had a breakdown and could no longer get gratification from flashing, or whatever he usually did for satisfaction. He may have fantasized for a long time before actually carrying out the crime. It was sexually motivated, and he did it because he wanted to. That's the part he doesn't want to admit. The only thing wrong with his thinking was that it was twisted and evil.

IMO

 

[johnlair]

@johnlair

This vehice turned right onto Kings Ave - is that correct?

If so, that is off the direct route to Kent. So, why turn right there? Where does this route lead? One possbility is Tooting Common.

Am not sure I just know in the footage it's stationary and the driver seems like he cant keep his eyes of the passenger

 

[Stella123]

Reports said his car was tracked from that point, leaving London into Kent. So I don't think he'd have turned off route somewhere (whether to Tooting Common or anywhere). I think he just shot straight off. WC himself said he was on the Maidstone to Ashford Road (M20) between 11pm and 11.30pm. Whether that's true or not, the timing is right if he left London just after 9.30pm and it takes one and half hours (90 minutes).

I also think he got Sarah to get into the car after showing a warrant card. And maybe said he was driving her to a Police station so she wouldn't suspect anything at first. And yes you do tend to react to authority without questioning sometimes. What doesn't quite add up there to me is - if he wasn't in uniform, I think most people would think twice about getting into a car with someone who said he was a police officer but not in uniform. The Astra may well have looked like a police car but no markings or lights. But if he had that air of intimidating authority she may well have just accepted it.

The other thing that doesn't add up is, as NewThoughts said earlier - why would she have got in the front when there was supposed to be social distancing. But I am not sure on the regulations in police cars during the pandemic or she may not have thought of that.

The only other thought I had was he asked her for help. Had his hazard warning lights on and stopped her to ask to use her phone saying his car broken down. Maybe coming across as perfectly normal - I am sure he could turn on the charm. But if that was the case she wouldn't have got in the car willingly. It would explain how he got her phone from her immediately though.

Somehow I don't think he coshed her and immobilised her and bundled her into the car on that busy road. I think he tricked her to get into the car, with his warrant card and said he'd need to drive her to a police station.

Then there is that question - how did he manage to drive to Ashford with her in the car without restraining her? I think it's straight onto the motorway from Poynders, pretty much.

But maybe at some point she realised they weren't going to a police station and asked where they were going and he got nasty or just didn't speak. What could she do? At speed on a fast A road or motorway - apart from possibly try to talk to him. She was intelligent - she may have tried to be calm and not anger him and just chatted and pretended to get on with him (a survival technique). Just chatted maybe. Hoping at some point she might be able to escape unharmed.

But if he drove straight to the woods she didn't have much chance after that. I don't think he got out of the car at the woods. But just did everything in the car. He had already prepared for protecting car seats and carpets from splashed and dna with the roll of carpet film he ordered 3 days before when hiring the car.

Basically once Sarah was in that car, she was a hostage. And hostages sometimes try to talk their way out of a situation.

Going back to the possible layby - I think that was made up. The M20 is a motorway - I don't think there are laybys on motorways are there?

According to google maps it looks like a straight run through between Maidstone and Ashford without any service stations or roundabouts. Although he must have been able to turn off somewhere to get to Hoads wood.

 

[londoncat]

Hopefully they retrieved hers

I don’t think they would necessarily need to retrieve it to get the location data while it was on. Our phones are usually providing a lot of location information from sending text messages or emails and making calls, even when inactive I think they will send location data in some instances such as if you have the “find my phone” app popular on iPhone.

 

[Custard Cream]

Massive long time lurker and rarely post but have read all the threads from the start.

am I right in thinking the hire car was a white Vauxhall Astra? The most commonly used car by the police force here in the UK? If so I imagine that was deliberate….. adds to the ‘badge waving, I’m a cop’ theory.

 

[Kitkat28]

Why is it so important if he got Sarah into the car using his warrant card? It seems to have become a bit of a fixation, and going over and over and over it isn’t actually a discussion now. The fact remains, sadly, that he did get her in the car.