FL- 12 Story Condo Partial Building Collapse, many still unaccounted for, Miami, 24 June 2021 #2

[LadyL]

The pool deck had 500 cracks that needed to be sealed and a 20-square-foot slab that needed to be replaced during a 1996 inspection.

Pool deck at collapsed Florida building flagged 25 years ago

 

[SouthAussie]

The pool deck had 500 cracks that needed to be sealed and a 20-square-foot slab that needed to be replaced during a 1996 inspection.

Pool deck at collapsed Florida building flagged 25 years ago

Re: the cracks. I guess they must have considered them cosmetic or relatively minor because .... (your linked article says they recommended urethane to fill the cracks).


Polyurethane crack injection kits are recommended for non-structural leaking cracks resulting from concrete shrinkage or minor settlement while epoxy injection kits are designed to treat more severe cracks that compromise the structural integrity of the wall.
Crack Injection for Concrete Basement Walls - The Concrete Network

 

[Dontknow?]

When living in central FL late 80's early nineties, I had a big builder come to my office and slam a handful of unset cement on my desk. Grey turds, I called them. He yelled why didn't this set up? It had rained for almost 24 hours...it was full of water is why. It was at a Coke a cola building.

They mixed it with too much water and with the continuous rain made it the way it was.

 

[Arkay]

I definitely want the survivors and the loved ones of the dead to receive compensation, but I can't imagine building another residential tower in the same spot. Not even if it was built and maintained with the most stringent safety standards. Who could live there with the memory of what just happened?

Certainly that is very expensive and exclusive waterfront property, but not nearly as expensive as Downtown Manhattan. The Financial District is some of the most valuable real estate in the entire world, and yet the footsteps of the Twin Towers are now memorial pools with all the names engraved. The Freedom Tower (One WTC) is located at a corner of the former WTC complex and took 13 years to build. It's on the site of the former 6 WTC, one of the smaller buildings. It was considered unconscionable to rebuild a commercial or any building on the gravesite of thousands of people.

While it's true that throughout history, somebody has likely died in every inhabited spot in the world, they didn't die in the modern age while we watched it happen. Here in NYC I'm aware that Native Americans and those who lived here after them have probably died beneath every step I take, but that is just an assumption and not publicly recorded.

While the WTC and the Pentagon were workplaces, not homes, people still had personal effects, like pictures on their desks as well as their wallets, etc. All those effects were handled with care and respect. From 220 vanquished floors, after months of searching for bodies, the searchers dug through all of that and sent truckloads to be sifted through on Staten Island. Everything that could be returned to a loved one was done to bring whatever comfort it could. (I'm less familiar with how things were handled at the Pentagon, which of course is still a workplace).

Obviously this is all JMO but if billion-dollar parcels of land could be set aside to honor the dead at the WTC, the same can be done in Surfside.

 

[TDoc72]

I’m looking at the judges speed as for the living. As sad as it is, money will not help the dead. Their estates will be settled and their families will be compensated at some point. But the people that had their homes demolished when they took down the rest of the building, lost everything. They need to buy new homes, clothes, vehicles, etc. They have more immediate needs. Their lives need to continue.

 

[IQuestion]

Re: the cracks. I guess they must have considered them cosmetic or relatively minor because .... (your linked article says they recommended urethane to fill the cracks).


Polyurethane crack injection kits are recommended for non-structural leaking cracks resulting from concrete shrinkage or minor settlement while epoxy injection kits are designed to treat more severe cracks that compromise the structural integrity of the wall.
Crack Injection for Concrete Basement Walls - The Concrete Network

SOUTHAUSSIE Thank you for the link... It was a great article on the use of "injection kits" for concrete leaks. If I ever had a home with a small leak in the basement, I could see myself trying to do it myself. (Big fan of Leah Bolden's See Jane Drill videos) However, using this process to fix a 400+ sq foot deck and a one acre underground parking garage ceiling and spalling columns? Who thought this was a good idea?

 

[al66pine]

Wheels of Justice Turning How Fast?

When I heard they were going to expediate the selling. I was upset for the families as it seemed they weren't going to be able to have a say and won't be able to process the loss. I understand that the judge wants to compensate the families quickly, but it also seems cruel. The families should be able process everything.

@Hope32 bbm I read only a few paragraphs about various lawsuits filed to date and forgot if the suit seeking certification as a class action* was filed on behalf of condo unit owners or the persons who died/were injured in the collapse & their families, et al. Those two groups would be different classes imo. Regardless, if ^ post is saying ppl will not have a say re class action, it's a misconception imo. Ppl who do not wish to participate as a member of the class may "opt out" and proceed w litigation independent of the class action.**

Is ^ post is saying proceedings should be stayed, and/or payments to victims/families made quickly is cruel, because fam's need time to process?

Despite call to expedite, I doubt lawsuits will be concluded - whether thru negotiated settlements, or ADRs such as arbitration or mediation, or traditional, judicial procedure - by the end of this yr or w'in a year (which ever time frame the judge mentioned).
my2cts, could be wrong.
_________________________________
* See gen'ly: Class action - Wikipedia
** See discussion ^ re Notice and settlement

 

[indicolite22]

While it's true that throughout history, somebody has likely died in every inhabited spot in the world, they didn't die in the modern age while we watched it happen. Here in NYC I'm aware that Native Americans and those who lived here after them have probably died beneath every step I take, but that is just an assumption and not publicly recorded.

But individuals die in houses, apartments and hotels every day. Some die before their time in accidents or due to crime. Properties are still used afterwards. I think the mass casualty factor and the level of destruction found here makes us look at it differently.

 

[gregjrichards]

I definitely want the survivors and the loved ones of the dead to receive compensation, but I can't imagine building another residential tower in the same spot. Not even if it was built and maintained with the most stringent safety standards. Who could live there with the memory of what just happened?

Certainly that is very expensive and exclusive waterfront property, but not nearly as expensive as Downtown Manhattan. The Financial District is some of the most valuable real estate in the entire world, and yet the footsteps of the Twin Towers are now memorial pools with all the names engraved. The Freedom Tower (One WTC) is located at a corner of the former WTC complex and took 13 years to build. It's on the site of the former 6 WTC, one of the smaller buildings. It was considered unconscionable to rebuild a commercial or any building on the gravesite of thousands of people.

While it's true that throughout history, somebody has likely died in every inhabited spot in the world, they didn't die in the modern age while we watched it happen. Here in NYC I'm aware that Native Americans and those who lived here after them have probably died beneath every step I take, but that is just an assumption and not publicly recorded.

While the WTC and the Pentagon were workplaces, not homes, people still had personal effects, like pictures on their desks as well as their wallets, etc. All those effects were handled with care and respect. From 220 vanquished floors, after months of searching for bodies, the searchers dug through all of that and sent truckloads to be sifted through on Staten Island. Everything that could be returned to a loved one was done to bring whatever comfort it could. (I'm less familiar with how things were handled at the Pentagon, which of course is still a workplace).

Obviously this is all JMO but if billion-dollar parcels of land could be set aside to honor the dead at the WTC, the same can be done in Surfside.

I understand how you feel I would not wish to buy a condominium in a building built on the land where this horrendous tragedy has occurred and so many people had died. However there are plenty of people who would buy a property there if they knew the land was safe and solid. And if they knew the new building was built to the highest modern safety standards possible. Just look at the people who have no issue flying on the Boeing 737 Max again which I find baffling. The land is prime waterfront real estate and the new building next door Eighty Seven Park had a penthouse sell for $37 million last year.

Some people may argue that keeping the land vacant with no building may make it more difficult for the community to heal from what has happened in the years ahead. It would have been better and more appropriate to wait to sell the land until everyone who has died remains had been recovered. I understand why the families who are waiting for their loved ones to be found would find selling the land now extremely insensitive and cause them to feel a lot of anger.

I think it is way too premature and inappropriate to consider selling the land and building a new building there when not even a month has passed. But the victims families are suffering the loss of their loved ones, loss of their home, loss of earnings, funeral costs and they will need money to help them now and selling the land will help them financially. It could take a long time for compensation to come from the lawsuits.

There should definitely be a permanent memorial to the victims who tragically died in Surfside. I’m sure there definitely will be, the community will not forget all the men, women and children who have died. Hopefully everything possible will be done to ensure this devastating tragedy does not happen to another condominium building ever again.

 

[nhmemorymaker]

Southeast FL is a pretty big place so that blanket statement isn't very logical. Most of SE FL has a strong limestone bedrock. While porous it's pretty strong. Geology of Florida - Wikipedia
As noted in the wiki, an earthquake hit in the Atlantic between Jamaica and Cuba in early 2020 and was felt in Miami.

Up here in Palm Beach, but out in the western part of the county there is an issue with the land. It's reclaimed land from the Everglades/Lake Okeechobee's flood plain. The ground literally shrinks every year, it is called subsidence. It's interesting driving out there, the soil dries and shrinks. Common to see buildings that have wood siding at the bottom where the ground has dried up under them. I've seen both residential and commercial buildings that have issues.I'm in the central part of the county. I'm at some elevation, a whopping 17' IIRC and I dig down 6" and hit limestone. No subsidence here and relatively little risk of flooding (knock on wood). SL 311/SS523: Everglades Agricultural Area Soil Subsidence and Sustainability

Post Andrew construction is good for the most part. My house is cinderblock. For hurricane protection the block had holes punched in the bottom every couple of feet and the walls were poured with concrete until it came out the holes at the bottom. Roof strapped to the block. Inspections during construction were good and frequent. Pre Andrew construction, especially from the 1970's and 1980's--I wouldn't touch it with a 10' pole. Numerous shortcuts were taken. I've heard from more than one person in construction that "back in the day" on condo construction they would add too much water to the concrete so it pumped up easier and I guess this changes the calculations on how it handles loads.

I had a conversation this past Saturday with an acquaintance. He's a building inspector for a municipality in Broward. He said all the engineers in the area-and the state-are slammed with work since Champlain. And all of them are reluctant to take on new projects because of liability. I guess they see what is happening to Frank Morabito and Rosendo Prieto and are worried. He also said the attorneys for engineers across the state have been inundated with calls about liability. As for himself he's considering retiring and going into consulting because he sees $$$ and he's close to retirement anyway.

Interesting times for sure.

Thanks for posting this article about subsidence......such interesting information.

 

[IceIce9]

Even some of the survivors want it rebuilt so they can move in. That is just unbelievable to me.

I wouldn’t even want to live anywhere in the area.

 

[sds71]

…Little details from 9/11 calls may seem insignificant, but Structural Engineer Allyn Kilsheimer says these accounts of the tower collapse can reveal a number of things: from what the collapse felt like to where it may have started…
Miami Dade County and Surfside dispatchers had hundreds of calls that Kilsheimer says are worth the time to go through.

“Theoretically what I’m going to hear what people saw and heard that might be something that helps me to understand what to focus on that I might not yet be focusing on that I ought to be focusing on,” said Kilsheimer.

Another reason Kilsheimer says these calls are important: many victims of trauma struggle to remember details of what happened to them, so instead of interviewing witnesses after the fact, Kilsheimer can hear what they saw as it was happening.


911 calls could give clues as to what caused the Surfside condo collapse

 

[sds71]

Resembling a kid's giant sandbox replete with Tonka toys, excavators and dump trucks replenished the beach in Surfside for months. The project ended about a year before the town became renowned as the site of the catastrophic Champlain Towers South condominium collapse.

Unlike other renourishment projects where the sand is pumped up from the depths of the ocean, the precious commodity was trucked into Surfside. Up to 272 dump truckloads per day. Six days a week.

The heavy equipment traveled a singular route that took it right by the garage of Champlain Towers South, at 8777 Collins Ave. The same garage is the focus of the deadly collapse of the building in the early morning hours of June 24.

Now the former mayor of this seaside village wants to know whether the vibration from such heavy loads right outside its door may have undermined an already troubled building and contributed to the collapse of the condominium tower…

The minutes from March 4, 2020 meeting memorialized a "punch list" that included additional work on 88th Street in front of Champlain and repairs to a neighboring parking lot.

"At the southeast corner of were (sic) the asphalt meets hardpack access road at 88th street, there is a depression in the asphalt and concrete border is damaged and spalled," the minutes read...

"That is like the lowest rung of what could have been the problem," Kilsheimer said. "This is a concrete frame building, I don't believe that would be a probability. But then again, you know, we have a list of 40 things. That's one of the things that we're looking at — we're just not looking at it yet."

https://townofsurfsidefl.gov/docs/d...1e362eeac30ff000090a7c7.pdf?sfvrsn=10432394_4

Did beach project undermine condo tower before collapse?

 

[SouthAussie]

William Espinosa said he was stunned when he saw the images of the condominium collapse in Surfside.
“I was there from 1995 to about 2000,” Espinosa explained.

And yet one memory stuck with him, the amount of seawater that would make its way into the underground garage.

"Any time that we had high tides away from the ordinary, any King Tide or anything like that, we would have a lot of saltwater come in through the bottom of thefoundation,” he claimed, adding they had to use two large pumps to try and remove the rising water. “But it was so much water, all the time, that the pumps never could keep up with it.”

“The water would just basically sit there and then it would just seep downward,” Espinosa said. “It would just go away after a while. And I would think, where does that water go? Because it had to go in through somewhere. I’m talking about a foot, sometimes two feet of water in the bottom of the parking lot, the whole parking lot.”

Condo Collapse: Former Maintenance Manager William Espinosa Was Concerned About Saltwater Intrusion

 

[dixiegirl1035]

William Espinosa said he was stunned when he saw the images of the condominium collapse in Surfside.
“I was there from 1995 to about 2000,” Espinosa explained.

And yet one memory stuck with him, the amount of seawater that would make its way into the underground garage.

Any time that we had high tides away from the ordinary, any King Tide or anything like that, we would have a lot of saltwater come in through the bottom of the of the foundation,” he claimed, adding they had to use two large pumps to try and remove the rising water. “But it was so much water, all the time, that the pumps never could keep up with it.”

“The water would just basically sit there and then it would just seep downward,” Espinosa said. “It would just go away after a while. And I would think, where does that water go? Because it had to go in through somewhere. I’m talking about a foot, sometimes two feet of water in the bottom of the parking lot, the whole parking lot.”

Condo Collapse: Former Maintenance Manager William Espinosa Was Concerned About Saltwater Intrusion

This article in above post is from 26 days ago, on 6/20, and seemed to point to the actual subfloor of garage and pilings and potential underwater caving or ???.

I think much has been gleaned since 6/20.

We have now seen with our own eyes that many pilings are there still, and that there was no "sink hole" that swallowed up due to underground erosion or ??

The live feeds on the Surfside YT live in the past few days have seen CATs going back and forth over the entire area... no pits or caving or "sinkhole" MOO

MOO, subject to change.. but preliminary focus still seems to be the first issue was on the ripping of the decking (thank goodness for the ramp video!) and then pulling down of the rest in a cascade? In other words, not the bottom of the parking lot floor, but the decking above the underground parking lot initiated?

Yet, Dunno if one of the columns back from the ramp went down with the ceiling/deck collapse as part of this initial cascade?...

But sinkhole... is out MOO

IANACE

 

[SouthAussie]

This article in above post is from 26 days ago, on 6/20, and seemed to point to the actual subfloor of garage and pilings and potential underwater caving or ???.

I think much has been gleaned since 6/20.

We have now seen with our own eyes that many pilings are there still, and that there was no "sink hole" that swallowed up due to underground erosion or ??

The live feeds on the Surfside YT live in the past few days have seen CATs going back and forth over the entire area... no pits or caving or "sinkhole" MOO

MOO, subject to change.. but preliminary focus still seems to be the first issue was on the ripping of the decking (thank goodness for the ramp video!) and then pulling down of the rest in a cascade? In other words, not the bottom of the parking lot floor, but the decking above the underground parking lot initiated?

Dunno if one of the columns back from the ramp went down with the ceiling/deck collapse...

But sinkhole... is out MOO

IANACE

I don't think he was speaking of a sinkhole. IMO

I think he was speaking of laying water and it draining away (somehow), all by itself, into the water table. The water table is not far under the parking garages along there.


"It doesn't have to be very deep, a few feet, and you're going to hit water," said Randy Smith, spokesman for the South Florida Water Management District. "It's right under our feet."
"It's almost like [building] a swimming pool," Fort Lauderdale developer Andy Mitchell said, "and you pump the water out and put cars in it."

In Miami, an enormous two-level underground garage was just built under the nearly complete Downtown Dadeland complex. The 25-foot-deep garage spans 7 acres and required construction workers to tolerate bathtub-like conditions for a year.
Water out, Cars in: Parking goes Underground

 

[indicolite22]

In an interview, Miami-Dade Medical Examiner Dr. Emma Lew, who has been with the office since the early 1990s, said she hopes families can take solace in the fact that the investigation is finding that their loved ones “would not have been aware that they were in a situation that would cause death.”

“If they were asleep, they would not have been conscious long enough to suffer,” Lew, who is retiring in August, said in a Monday interview. “From what I’ve seen of the bodies, that is very much the case.”

ETA: from the same article (BBM)

Rodriguez said while he takes some solace in knowing the fate of his beloved family, he feels bad for those who are still waiting for news, like Ike Hedaya, whose sister Estelle Hedaya is still unaccounted for in the collapse.

Hedaya said authorities believe they have recovered everyone from the rubble. He said seven families, including his own, are waiting for the Medical Examiner to identify the remaining victims killed in the collapse.

Read more here: https://www.miamiherald.com/news/lo...ami-beach/article252726263.html#storylink=cpy

 

[dixiegirl1035]

In an interview, Miami-Dade Medical Examiner Dr. Emma Lew, who has been with the office since the early 1990s, said she hopes families can take solace in the fact that the investigation is finding that their loved ones “would not have been aware that they were in a situation that would cause death.”

“If they were asleep, they would not have been conscious long enough to suffer,” Lew, who is retiring in August, said in a Monday interview. “From what I’ve seen of the bodies, that is very much the case.”

ETA: from the same article (BBM)

Rodriguez said while he takes some solace in knowing the fate of his beloved family, he feels bad for those who are still waiting for news, like Ike Hedaya, whose sister Estelle Hedaya is still unaccounted for in the collapse.

Hedaya said authorities believe they have recovered everyone from the rubble. He said seven families, including his own, are waiting for the Medical Examiner to identify the remaining victims killed in the collapse.

Read more here: https://www.miamiherald.com/news/lo...ami-beach/article252726263.html#storylink=cpy

That article pulled a rip cord on my emotions and tear ducts. Both are flowing full out right now.

Thanks for sharing this article which brings me to such, as breaking emotions for those at Champlain are a part of respect for their deaths, and appreciate the testimony of their lives in this article.

Well done article MOO

 

[indicolite22]

Miami Beach mayor offers city park for possible memorial to Surfside collapse victims

Read more here: https://www.miamiherald.com/news/lo...ami-beach/article252827773.html#storylink=cpy

 

[indicolite22]

The number of victims has increased to 103. Eight are still missing.

https://twitter.com/pbpost/status/1416033946123579404