TX TX - Huntsville, 'Walker County Jane Doe', WhtFem 14-16, 91UFTX, Nov'80 #3 *NAME NOT RELEASED*

[Sweetluv]

Also, this was brutal! This monster was enraged and cold....I find it hard to believe the perp didnt do something like this before or after.

 

[ntt1]

Don't know how directly to link to the post, but here is the page it is on:

TX - TX - Huntsville, 'Walker County Jane Doe' WhtFem 91UFTX, 14-16, Nov'80 *GRAPHIC* #2

I had completely forgot about those posts as well. I think that taking into account the fact that they've tried in the past likely means that it isn't out of the realm of possibility that someone else may be working on it. There are plenty of labs that have the capability to work with degraded samples, and the technology is rapidly advancing. CarlK has stated on the FB page that DDP had offered in the past to take it but the agency didn't seem to engage.

 

[Earth]

Could her case be connected to these murders? They all occurred in roughly the same part of Texas and within a few years of each other.

Lesia Michelle Jackson: The Unsolved Murder Of A 12-Year-Old Girl, Whose Body Was Found Six Days After She Went Missing
The National Missing and Unidentified Persons System (NamUs)
The National Missing and Unidentified Persons System (NamUs)
The National Missing and Unidentified Persons System (NamUs)
Deanna Lynn Ogg (1969-1986) - Find A Grave...

In my opinion, WCJD was possibly reported missing but purged out of the system by law enforcement after her eighteenth birthday. Or she happened to be a child in foster care whose case was tossed aside for the same reason. It's really strange to think of her as a vulnerable young girl when if she had lived then she would be the same age as my mother.

 

[Wossy]

Could her case be connected to these murders? They all occurred in roughly the same part of Texas and within a few years of each other.

Lesia Michelle Jackson: The Unsolved Murder Of A 12-Year-Old Girl, Whose Body Was Found Six Days After She Went Missing
The National Missing and Unidentified Persons System (NamUs)
The National Missing and Unidentified Persons System (NamUs)
The National Missing and Unidentified Persons System (NamUs)
Deanna Lynn Ogg (1969-1986) - Find A Grave...

In my opinion, WCJD was possibly reported missing but purged out of the system by law enforcement after her eighteenth birthday. Or she happened to be a child in foster care whose case was tossed aside for the same reason. It's really strange to think of her as a vulnerable young girl when if she had lived then she would be the same age as my mother.

She is sometimes connected to the Texas Killing field victims. Though they happened a couple of miles away from where she was found. Speaking of findings I hope they find the necklace that was took from her. Its a shame that someone in law enforcement felt the need to commit larceny for whatever reason.

 

[carbuff]

The techniques for getting usable DNA out of very old bones take a long time to get results, even not counting paperwork, backlog, and COVID delays.

 

[Ajaygee11]

She is sometimes connected to the Texas Killing field victims. Though they happened a couple of miles away from where she was found. Speaking of findings I hope they find the necklace that was took from her. Its a shame that someone in law enforcement felt the need to commit larceny for whatever reason.

Yes it could have been taken on purpose but I think it could have also been misplaced, as in could have accidentally been put back in another evidence box that has not been opened by the WCSD for 41 Years. Just a thought, it might still be in their building. Another thought is that era (i.e the 1980s) was in my opinion, around the time it was starting to become economically viable for manual filing systems to be replaced by computerised ones for smaller to medium sized organisations and an error in cataloguing may explain why it can’t be found.

 

[sunnynz]

Most truck drivers that committed crimes like this got away with it because they didn't just dump the victim on the side of an interstate just a few miles from a truck stop that not only the victim was last seen at but they themself would have also been seen. If a truck driver was responsible I feel like WCJD would have been found hundreds if not a thousand miles away and a connection to the girl in Huntsville would have never been made.

Given no (external) clothing was found at the scene, presumably the eyewitness accounts of those who supposedly encountered WCJD were based on 1) the red shoe connection and 2) them being shown a post-mortem pic of her face.

Would the red shoes have been mentioned by police to these witnesses before the witnesses mentioned them, unprompted? i.e. there's a big difference between a copy showing people a picture of WCJD and saying 'did you see this girl, she was wearing red shoes', vs. a cop just showing the picture and asking if anyone had seen her. My slightly convoluted point is, how 100% sure are we that the girl wearing the yellow sweater, talking about Ellis Unit, Aransas Pass and saying 'I don't care' is actually WCJD?

T Rex's comment made me go, huh.... Perhaps WCJD was dumped by a trucker passing through from miles away, and WCJD never even walked the streets of Huntsville but has been confused with another girl - the girl with the yellow sweater, who may or may not have had red shoes, depending on how the police framed their questioning.

In which case, Rockport, Aransas, the prison are all red herrings and not worth time investigating...

 

[T rex]

Given no (external) clothing was found at the scene, presumably the eyewitness accounts of those who supposedly encountered WCJD were based on 1) the red shoe connection and 2) them being shown a post-mortem pic of her face.

Would the red shoes have been mentioned by police to these witnesses before the witnesses mentioned them, unprompted? i.e. there's a big difference between a copy showing people a picture of WCJD and saying 'did you see this girl, she was wearing red shoes', vs. a cop just showing the picture and asking if anyone had seen her. My slightly convoluted point is, how 100% sure are we that the girl wearing the yellow sweater, talking about Ellis Unit, Aransas Pass and saying 'I don't care' is actually WCJD?

T Rex's comment made me go, huh.... Perhaps WCJD was dumped by a trucker passing through from miles away, and WCJD never even walked the streets of Huntsville but has been confused with another girl - the girl with the yellow sweater, who may or may not have had red shoes, depending on how the police framed their questioning.

In which case, Rockport, Aransas, the prison are all red herrings and not worth time investigating...

It's possible their not the same but if not what happened to the girl in the yellow sweater? Why was she seen twice in a few hours but was not reported seen again and didn't make it to the prison?
She was awful close to her destination to just give up.

 

[sunnynz]

It's possible their not the same but if not what happened to the girl in the yellow sweater? Why was she seen twice in a few hours but was not reported seen again and didn't make it to the prison?
She was awful close to her destination to just give up.

Not sure - so many avenues where she could have gone. Teenagers change their minds and change their plans. man I wish one of the eye witnesses were still alive so they could be reinterviewed!

 

[Beekarina]

Interesting.....

IF this theory is true, we basically need the girl in the yellow sweater to be alive, see this and come forward with proof.

And it really is possible. Consider all of the young girls we have thought could be WCJD. Perhaps the yellow sweater girl was "Kathy"? And Kathy was not WCJD? Or something along those lines....

 

[AmonAmarther]

That's an interesting perspective!

Given no (external) clothing was found at the scene, presumably the eyewitness accounts of those who supposedly encountered WCJD were based on 1) the red shoe connection and 2) them being shown a post-mortem pic of her face.

Would the red shoes have been mentioned by police to these witnesses before the witnesses mentioned them, unprompted? i.e. there's a big difference between a copy showing people a picture of WCJD and saying 'did you see this girl, she was wearing red shoes', vs. a cop just showing the picture and asking if anyone had seen her. My slightly convoluted point is, how 100% sure are we that the girl wearing the yellow sweater, talking about Ellis Unit, Aransas Pass and saying 'I don't care' is actually WCJD?

T Rex's comment made me go, huh.... Perhaps WCJD was dumped by a trucker passing through from miles away, and WCJD never even walked the streets of Huntsville but has been confused with another girl - the girl with the yellow sweater, who may or may not have had red shoes, depending on how the police framed their questioning.

In which case, Rockport, Aransas, the prison are all red herrings and not worth time investigating...

 

[KenziLee]

Interesting.....

IF this theory is true, we basically need the girl in the yellow sweater to be alive, see this and come forward with proof.

And it really is possible. Consider all of the young girls we have thought could be WCJD. Perhaps the yellow sweater girl was "Kathy"? And Kathy was not WCJD? Or something along those lines....

It would be a crazy coincidence that there would be another girl the same age, minutes from where Kathy could have been spotted,dumped on the side of the road dead.... Peculiar to me that Kathy has not come forward today saying she is alive or that no one has claimed to know her or know her whereabouts to this day despite the info and pictures on the internet...
I would never rule out Kathy as WCJD, as i do personally think their nose, eyes/eyebrows, forehead, and spacing between the nose and lips are distinctively similar....

Although because of no one coming forward, carl K has remodeled the sketch based on a post embalming photo... I dont understand how any post-embalming photo could ever represent anything other than what WCJD became before being buried, since her features are drastically different in the P-E one online than the other post mortems before embalming... Nose shape is different, face is ballooned out, eyes sewn shut and appear elongated, mouth also sewn and swollen from time of death, even forehead is wider but not as tall as the other pics.. IMO not an accurate reference for the appearance of a once alive girl...

Here's why I never would rule Kathy out.......

Not only did sketches appear to depict features like Kathys consistently amongst artists (comparison pic attached) but also simple analysis of features changing during relaxed facial expressions vs smiles is observable in a missing girl you all may be familiar with, Margaret Kay Holst... (comparison attached, NOT saying she is WCJD)
Her features appear delicate, full lips and tiny nose, round jaw... but the nose appears larger, the eyes squint, the jaw shapes out, and the lips thin as she smiles....
Try having only the picture on the right of this girl and trying to match her definitively with the girl on the left...... In order to be accurate to this case, one would need to close her eyes, beat her and smash her face to the ground and leave her there for hours, make her even less recognizable and swollen...... And then imagine having only THAT image on the left for reference for the once lively, smiling Margaret Kay Holst depicted on the right......

I truly believe that the Kathy case being at a standstill, since no one knows her or comes forward, if nothing else, represents the big issue we are having with our girl, WCJD.. No definitive identification and no promising leads to close the case..

Even if they were two separate girls in the same area, same time, with similar stories, perhaps that factor alone can help us solve this case someday....

But those are just my two cents... sorry so lengthy... Please delete if I have broken any rules here.

 

[Beekarina]

It would be a crazy coincidence that there would be another girl the same age, minutes from where Kathy could have been spotted,dumped on the side of the road dead.... Peculiar to me that Kathy has not come forward today saying she is alive or that no one has claimed to know her or know her whereabouts to this day despite the info and pictures on the internet...
I would never rule out Kathy as WCJD, as i do personally think their nose, eyes/eyebrows, forehead, and spacing between the nose and lips are distinctively similar....

Although because of no one coming forward, carl K has remodeled the sketch based on a post embalming photo... I dont understand how any post-embalming photo could ever represent anything other than what WCJD became before being buried, since her features are drastically different in the P-E one online than the other post mortems before embalming... Nose shape is different, face is ballooned out, eyes sewn shut and appear elongated, mouth also sewn and swollen from time of death, even forehead is wider but not as tall as the other pics.. IMO not an accurate reference for the appearance of a once alive girl...

Here's why I never would rule Kathy out.......

Not only did sketches appear to depict features like Kathys consistently amongst artists (comparison pic attached) but also simple analysis of features changing during relaxed facial expressions vs smiles is observable in a missing girl you all may be familiar with, Margaret Kay Holst... (comparison attached, NOT saying she is WCJD)
Her features appear delicate, full lips and tiny nose, round jaw... but the nose appears larger, the eyes squint, the jaw shapes out, and the lips thin as she smiles....
Try having only the picture on the right of this girl and trying to match her definitively with the girl on the left...... In order to be accurate to this case, one would need to close her eyes, beat her and smash her face to the ground and leave her there for hours, make her even less recognizable and swollen...... And then imagine having only THAT image on the left for reference for the once lively, smiling Margaret Kay Holst depicted on the right......

I truly believe that the Kathy case being at a standstill, since no one knows her or comes forward, if nothing else, represents the big issue we are having with our girl, WCJD.. No definitive identification and no promising leads to close the case..

Even if they were two separate girls in the same area, same time, with similar stories, perhaps that factor alone can help us solve this case someday....

But those are just my two cents... sorry so lengthy... Please delete if I have broken any rules here.

I'm not sure I follow your point with Margaret? I wondered once if she was Princess Blue. Is it just that you find both images of her different?

I do want to be clear that I personally believe WCJD could be pretty much anyone, from anywhere. She could be Kathy. She could be anyone.

What DOES throw me with everyone all of us has suggested--including all of my own suggestions--is the teensy, tiny unbelievably small tip of her nose. Her features are almost doll-like. Or they seem to be in the photos we have of her.

With Kathy, I can think of a lot of reasons she has never come forward. She could have been trafficked, and ended up in a really bad situation, and/or is another UID out there somewhere. Or she could simply be out there living her life and completely unaware of all of this.

Both young girls could have been runaways or something else in the same area. It is a fairly populated area, right? I'm thinking of an area more familiar to me. Harvard Square in Cambridge, MA. Anyone who knows it will know "The Pit" had all kinds of young runaways hanging out for years. I believe that has changed somewhat recently, but go back a bit? Tons of young kids hanging out, and sometimes it would have been hard to know who was a young local, who was a street kid, who was "slumming it" for a week or two, who was a college student, etc.

 

[Friday Fan]

I believe Carl's sketch is pre-embalming.
Carl's appears accurate

I don't see Kathleen's nose and hair in the post-mortem photos. WCJD had fine, wavy hair. Kathleen's was thicker and straighter. Kathleen also appears younger.

K could be out there living her life and would have no idea about WCJD.
A few years ago, there was another girl, Kitty.

WCJD original sketch was post embalming

 

[Wossy]

I believe Carl's sketch is pre-embalming.
Carl's appears accurate

I don't see Kathleen's nose and hair in the post-mortem photos. WCJD had fine, wavy hair. Kathleen's was thicker and straighter. Kathleen also appears younger.

K could be out there living her life and would have no idea about WCJD.
A few years ago, there was another girl, Kitty.

WCJD original sketch was post embalming

I don't know about younger but she does look slightly taller than walker. I think Walker was officially 5’3 and Kathy looks to be about 5’7 to me(though its hard to tell because she is sitting) Also Kitty was found alive and I think a couple of people got in trouble for posting her personal info on here.

 

[PropaneYeeter]

I don't know about younger but she does look slightly taller than walker. I think Walker was officially 5’3 and Kathy looks to be about 5’7 to me(though its hard to tell because she is sitting)

I've seen WCJD's height go anywhere from 5'0 to 5'6, depending on the source.

 

[Beekarina]

I've seen WCJD's height go anywhere from 5'0 to 5'6, depending on the source.

This really confuses me when a person was found so shortly after death. Why would height and weight not be exact? I understand if remains were skeletal, or in really bad shape (i.e. the poor people who have limbs removed) but it seems straight forward enough in this case to have recorded accurate height and weight.

 

[Wossy]

I've seen WCJD's height go anywhere from 5'0 to 5'6, depending on the source.

Well there is only 1 official height. The human skeletal structure doesn't morph after death, So she didn't die being 5’1 and them stretch out to 5’6 when they buried her. I remember her official weight was listed as 108 pounds.

 

[CCJD]

This really confuses me when a person was found so shortly after death. Why would height and weight not be exact? I understand if remains were skeletal, or in really bad shape (i.e. the poor people who have limbs removed) but it seems straight forward enough in this case to have recorded accurate height and weight.

Sometimes mistakes are made.

Robert Donlick went missing 1/7/2009 from Chadds Ford, PA. His height was listed as 5'8". A man jumped off the Staten Island Ferry on 1/8/2009 - the day after. His height was listed as 6'. Took two years (and a WS member) to ID him as Mr Donlick.

Match! - NY - NYC, WhtMale UP5064, 40-55, jumped from ferry, Jan'09 *Robert Donlick*

 

[Friday Fan]

This really confuses me when a person was found so shortly after death. Why would height and weight not be exact? I understand if remains were skeletal, or in really bad shape (i.e. the poor people who have limbs removed) but it seems straight forward enough in this case to have recorded accurate height and weight.

I see the heights off very frequently. I take them with a grain of salt.