Found Deceased Spain - Esther Dingley, from UK, missing in the Pyrenees, November 2020 #5

[Steve13]

50 foot high stone platform - why didn't I think of it?

There is a simpler way though. Tie a sleeping bag to the body. Swim with the body in lifesaver fashion to the centre of the lake and leave it floating there. Then make repeated journeys swimming back and forth to fill up the sleeping bag with stones until it sinks.

Yes! That would avoid the need for a team. You'd need extra flotation for the body, as they don't initially have buoyancy owing to the lack of air in the lungs. But def doable if you had take, say, a few plastic 2 liter water bottles along - that would do it.

50 foot high stone platform - why didn't I think of it?

There is a simpler way though. Tie a sleeping bag to the body. Swim with the body in lifesaver fashion to the centre of the lake and leave it floating there. Then make repeated journeys swimming back and forth to fill up the sleeping bag with stones until it sinks.

Yes! That would avoid the need for an extensive support team. You'd need extra flotation for the body, as they apparently don't initially have buoyancy right after death owing to the lack of air in the lungs. But definitely doable if you had taken a few empty 2 liter water bottles along. You've certainly solved the problem of getting the weight needed to get the body/evidence to a deep enough point for it to sink to the deepest parts without the carrier sinking into the mud beforehand. I think LE should definitely spent a LOT more resources searching all the lakes in the area, regardless of the local knowledge and expertise which seems to have precluded this so far.

 

[Federico_A]

I think differently, that the equipment will be found somewhere near the Port de la Glere.

SAR does believe that the animals or vultures found her body nearby - either on or nearby the scree cliff hiking trail at Port de la Glere.

"When there is a disappearance in the mountains and the victim cannot be found, then it is because we have not been able to find consistency with his itinerary. It is also necessary to count on luck to find traces of the person, often several months or even several years later. For Esther, the place has been visited many times. ...

There, I think it was animals that transported these remains that we think are human. But in my opinion, Esther did not fall very far from it.
​

Disparition d’Esther Dingley : "Il faut aussi de la chance pour retrouver la personne"

Well, the distance we are speculating about is crucial.

I agree there's a certain logic in assuming that the closer the body was to P de la G, the more likely the vulture would be to bring it to that place - but that hardly implies the body was in the immediate vicinity, and Esther's gear is clearly not around there. Lammergeiers can fly very well and have huge territories (200-400 square km by most accounts) so a couple of k would be nothing to one of those beasts. I can well imagine one gliding around for a while with the bones before deciding where to drop it. My guess is that the body was within a few kilometers away, but that hardly narrows down the search at all.

 

[mrjitty]

Well, the distance we are speculating about is crucial.

I agree there's a certain logic in assuming that the closer the body was to P de la G, the more likely the vulture would be to bring it to that place - but that hardly implies the body was in the immediate vicinity, and Esther's gear is clearly not around there. Lammergeiers can fly very well and have huge territories (200-400 square km by most accounts) so a couple of k would be nothing to one of those beasts.

Birds of prey conserve energy - it's unlikely that it took the skull far.

I can well imagine one gliding around for a while with the bones before deciding where to drop it. My guess is that the body was within a few kilometers away, but that hardly narrows down the search at all.

That narrows things down hugely.

 

[Jmoose]

Murdered by whom - a hiker who decided to defy France lockdown and Esther's ambiguous route?

Perhaps the skull was broken by birds dropping the skull from in the air. The jaw seems to be intact since dental records have been requested.

If you were a murderer, would you hike solo in Winter to 2400 meters in the Pyrenees to find a victim?

Otto, I completely agree with this. And in my opinion, ED was in a precarious enough position that a murderer did not have to be introduced to her story, to have died on this hike. I don’t think she was killed by DC or any opportunistic murderer; I am landing on misadventure, combined with a lack of understanding where ED was actually going on this hike. She was vague, possibly intentionally, and DC was inattentive.

 

[Herat]

Birds of prey conserve energy - it's unlikely that it took the skull far.



That narrows things down hugely.

I think vultures would use the same rocks to smash bones over and over. Places they know will work for them. Hence the reported presence of at least one other bone in the same area.

I don't think this would be a random thing

 

[RickshawFan]

Well, the distance we are speculating about is crucial.

I agree there's a certain logic in assuming that the closer the body was to P de la G, the more likely the vulture would be to bring it to that place - but that hardly implies the body was in the immediate vicinity, and Esther's gear is clearly not around there. Lammergeiers can fly very well and have huge territories (200-400 square km by most accounts) so a couple of k would be nothing to one of those beasts. I can well imagine one gliding around for a while with the bones before deciding where to drop it. My guess is that the body was within a few kilometers away, but that hardly narrows down the search at all.

There might have been bones from several people in the pile?There have been others missing in the mountains, and thousands of others missing in France (Spain?) who may or may not have been in the area.

 

[otto]

Well, the distance we are speculating about is crucial.

I agree there's a certain logic in assuming that the closer the body was to P de la G, the more likely the vulture would be to bring it to that place - but that hardly implies the body was in the immediate vicinity, and Esther's gear is clearly not around there. Lammergeiers can fly very well and have huge territories (200-400 square km by most accounts) so a couple of k would be nothing to one of those beasts. I can well imagine one gliding around for a while with the bones before deciding where to drop it. My guess is that the body was within a few kilometers away, but that hardly narrows down the search at all.

It's not my opinion that she did not fall far from where bones were found, but the opinion of SAR.

"I think it was animals that transported these remains that we think are human. But, in my opinion, Esther did not fall very far from there."​

Disparition d’Esther Dingley : "Il faut aussi de la chance pour retrouver la personne"

 

[RickshawFan]

The problem with the missing gear….

The large rock plates on that crazy steep De la G slope could have shifted over the winter, shifted during a fall, shifted when someone stepped on them this spring. All of this will have reconfigured “cavities.” The gear might be there, but eternally invisible until there’s another shift.

 

[Pahorb]

First post for me here. I came here when I read articles in the newspapers and also at Medium and my friend told me. My friend, actually, bought a building only 15km from the top Esther Dingley was. We were working on it and went for walk in exactly area in middle of November. Weather was OK like late Autumn more than early Winter. But winter close anyway. There are many good posts here and I am learning very much. If I may add something a bear is very unlikely bears do not come close to humans mainly and they also mainly avoid steepness if they can. Also there is a lot about route here and I have looked but do not see sense in Esther Dingleys way. She is dead for sure I think which is sad. Maybe they are her bones now.

 

[Owlpellet]

A few thoughts on Esther’s body being “buried” in some way. When someone is injured on the hill, if they can move at all, they tend to “go to ground” like a fox. They haul themselves to a place of relative shelter; behind a larger rock, or between them, under a slight overhang etc. They may add a few small rocks to build a little wall in front of themselves, filling in the gaps, anything to try to keep the wind out and feel a little safer, less exposed (perhaps also being aware of birds of prey about). They crawl into their sleeping bag and bivvy/tent if they can, leave something bright fluttering outside if they’re still thinking straight (which can blow away) and hope that help comes. It makes it very difficult for searchers to find people in these circumstances, even attempting grid searches with lines of experienced mountain rescuers (very dangerous on scree). It’s usually the rescue dogs that sniff them out first.

If this is what happened to Esther, the snows then came and covered the area, masking her scent and effectively entombing her and she would likely have died of her injuries, shock and hypothermia quite quickly. Over the winter, the weather could have partially eroded and collapsed any small wall of rocks she had gathered, effectively concealing the body further in a “cavity” or “hole” as suggested by French LE. So the fact she may have been buried like this may not suggest anyone else’s involvement. She could also have been buried under a fall of scree and been killed instantaneously.

Either way, when the spring came, the snow melted and she would have remained well concealed. But as the temperature rose, decomposition would have set in and attracted predators who gradually exposed at least parts of the body and did what predators do and some of her remains have been scattered. A lot of her gear may still be partially concealed under rocks.

And (less probably, but possibly) people who become hypothermic may feel hot and remove some clothing, so it is conceivable that predators could access a body, pulling parts of it out of a cavity, yet not leave much in the way of scraps of clothing and mountain gear lying about.

Hopefully, more remains will be found which will provide more clues and maybe enable further searches with dogs. Or we may just never know.

MOO

 

[Federico_A]

Murdered by whom - a hiker who decided to defy France lockdown and Esther's ambiguous route?

Perhaps the skull was broken by birds dropping the skull from in the air. The jaw seems to be intact since dental records have been requested.

If you were a murderer, would you hike solo in Winter to 2400 meters in the Pyrenees to find a victim?

No, a murder would not take place at high altitude. Nor would the murder be planned. Nor would it be in France. My theory is she was murdered opportunistically, most probably by a hunter on the Spanish side in the valley where there is a public road - specifically at Besurta cabin the evening when she came down from Sauvegarde. She had previously spent the night there. The surrounding area is also very amenable to hiding a body under rocks - I would say the most likely place in the whole search area. The body would eventually be exposed by the weather or rooted out by animals. Lammergeiers, which are certainly in the area, would then carry the bones to the high-altitude slopes for breaking and eating, as we know they do.
I don't rule out other theories but I would say this is the most economical theory possible, and is consistent with all known circumstances as well as with human nature.

 

[NoSI]

I wasn’t familiar with the Griffon vulture and wanted to learn about it. Incredible stats…

POPULATION SIZE - 500,000-1 M. Habitat in Spain, Portugal, France, Italy, Croatia, Greece, Bulgaria, Serbia, Greece, North Macedonia. Protected bird in many countries.

LIFE SPAN - 41.4 YRS

TOP SPEED - 75 KM/H

WEIGHT - 6-11 KG

LENGTH - 93-122 CM

WINGSPAN - 2.3-2.8 M

Europe’s second-largest bird, most social of Europe’s four vulture species.

Once the desired height is reached, soaring usually between 1,500 and 3,500 m (4,900 and 11,500 ft) high, the vultures scan every inch of the ground below with their extraordinary sight in search of animal remains. They occasionally ascend to 6,000 m (19,000 ft).

OK, this is potentially triggering, but is applicable… The birds (Griffon vultures) leave some marks on bone, including puncture marks on the skull and shoulder blade, lines on the arm and leg bones, and a few V- and L-shaped marks. But in the forensic studies, the bones that had marks from the griffon vultures are few, and most bones have no indication at all that the vultures had ******* the body.

Sources:
Griffon Vulture - Facts, Diet, Habitat & Pictures on Animalia.bio, Griffon Vulture - 4 Vultures, These Ancient Headless Corpses Were Defleshed By Griffon Vultures (forbes.com)

 

[Federico_A]

There might have been bones from several people in the pile?There have been others missing in the mountains, and thousands of others missing in France (Spain?) who may or may not have been in the area.

I guess it's highly likely that other missing persons have ended up that way, but the birds live only in the high Pyrenees so I suppose won't go down far into France or Spain on either side.

 

[Federico_A]

I wasn’t familiar with the Griffon vulture and wanted to learn about it. Incredible stats…

POPULATION SIZE - 500,000-1 M. Habitat in Spain, Portugal, France, Italy, Croatia, Greece, Bulgaria, Serbia, Greece, North Macedonia. Protected bird in many countries.

LIFE SPAN - 41.4 YRS

TOP SPEED - 75 KM/H

WEIGHT - 6-11 KG

LENGTH - 93-122 CM

WINGSPAN - 2.3-2.8 M

Europe’s second-largest bird, most social of Europe’s four vulture species.

Once the desired height is reached, soaring usually between 1,500 and 3,500 m (4,900 and 11,500 ft) high, the vultures scan every inch of the ground below with their extraordinary sight in search of animal remains. They occasionally ascend to 6,000 m (19,000 ft).

OK, this is potentially triggering, but is applicable… The birds (Griffon vultures) leave some marks on bone, including puncture marks on the skull and shoulder blade, lines on the arm and leg bones, and a few V- and L-shaped marks. But in the forensic studies, the bones that had marks from the griffon vultures are few, and most bones have no indication at all that the vultures had ******* the body.

Sources:
Griffon Vulture - Facts, Diet, Habitat & Pictures on Animalia.bio, Griffon Vulture - 4 Vultures, These Ancient Headless Corpses Were Defleshed By Griffon Vultures (forbes.com)

Check out bearded vulture (lammergeier) too. They're the ones that break and eat bones in spectacular fashion. The griffons have different eating habits and won't be interested in bones.

 

[Owlpellet]

No, a murder would not take place at high altitude. Nor would the murder be planned. Nor would it be in France. My theory is she was murdered opportunistically, most probably by a hunter on the Spanish side in the valley where there is a public road - specifically at Besurta cabin the evening when she came down from Sauvegarde. She had previously spent the night there. The surrounding area is also very amenable to hiding a body under rocks - I would say the most likely place in the whole search area. The body would eventually be exposed by the weather or rooted out by animals. Lammergeiers, which are certainly in the area, would then carry the bones to the high-altitude slopes for breaking and eating, as we know they do.
I don't rule out other theories but I would say this is the most economical theory possible, and is consistent with all known circumstances as well as with human nature.

I wouldn’t rule this scenario out completely either, although I’d go for a French hunter breaking lockdown and an accidental shooting that was covered up. But I’d still go for the more statistically likely scenario of a walking accident.

 

[searancke]

Suicide has always seemed a possibility for me. Sure, perhaps she messed up hiking up or down the dangerous slope at the Port de la Glere, but why was she there in the first place?

There is a very fine line here between recklessness and suicide. There is lots pointing to recklessness (Lack of paper map, lack of winter gear, unsuitable boots/shoes, not telling anyone where you are going or when due back, no method of calling for help, hiking on what were essentially closed trails, I could go on)...She may not have specifically wished to commit suicide, but I cannot imagine a circumstance where I would not leave note of where I was going and when due back - even with my parents or a local or another hiker....

 

[ZaZara]

Daily Mail has read the interview in La Depeche with Patrick Lagleize:

Esther Dingley more likely to have fallen from mountain in Pyrenees than been victim of criminal act | Daily Mail Online

Missing British hiker Esther Dingley is more likely to be the victim of a tragic accident than a criminal act, claims a leading mountain rescue expert.

Esther's boyfriend Dan Colegate recently suggested – before human remains were found near where the Oxford graduate disappeared in the Pyrenees last November – that he increasingly feared foul play.

But speaking after the discovery of what is believed to be a human skull and hair in the area last week, mountain rescue guide Patrick Lagleize said he believed it likely that Esther had lost her way and fallen to her death on treacherous scree [loose rock and gravel].

French forensic experts are now testing the remains with DNA samples from Esther's mother Ria, and also checking Esther's dental records for a match.

The Port [or pass] is four miles long and rises and falls 2,000ft reaching a maximum altitude of 7,794ft and is rated as moderately difficult.


BBM

 

[RickshawFan]

First post for me here. I came here when I read articles in the newspapers and also at Medium and my friend told me. My friend, actually, bought a building only 15km from the top Esther Dingley was. We were working on it and went for walk in exactly area in middle of November. Weather was OK like late Autumn more than early Winter. But winter close anyway. There are many good posts here and I am learning very much. If I may add something a bear is very unlikely bears do not come close to humans mainly and they also mainly avoid steepness if they can. Also there is a lot about route here and I have looked but do not see sense in Esther Dingleys way. She is dead for sure I think which is sad. Maybe they are her bones now.

Welcome, and I'm glad to see we're on the same page when it comes to bears! No bears in their right mind would go up/down that crazy steep slope to the P de la G. They're waaaaaay too smart! They'd go the easy way if they really wanted to head over the mountains: Port de V.
And bears really don't like to run afoul of humans. On the trail in the US, we wear bearbells (or talk loudly or sing); this lets a black bear know you're in the area. They evaporate. Except in some instances.... I had a black bear toy with me once on purpose, so silly. But yeah, give the bears some credit.

 

[RickshawFan]

I wouldn’t rule this scenario out completely either, although I’d go for a French hunter breaking lockdown and an accidental shooting that was covered up. But I’d still go for the more statistically likely scenario of a walking accident.

I think there wouldn't be anyone shooting up there by P de la G. Nothing like advertising your presence, in return for what? A dead marmot?

 

[RickshawFan]

It makes it very difficult for searchers to find people in these circumstances, even attempting grid searches with lines of experienced mountain rescuers (very dangerous on scree). It’s usually the rescue dogs that sniff them out first.

Snipped for focus.
The entire trail system in that area and the Refuge de V was contaminated by an intimate of ED, and dogs would have been irrelevant. Family and friends share the same aromas, and dogs have no way to distinguish which aroma belongs to the missing hiker and which to family/friends. They also disturb terrain with every footstep. This is why SAR insists that family and friends NOT go into the search area; often ALL volunteers are banned.