Found Deceased UK - Leah Croucher, 19, Emerson Valley, Milton Keynes, 14 Feb 2019 #4

[Lindsay Lou Who]

It's not at all that I think the police are above errors, just that there's this constant narrative that the police never investigated X, which seems to have come originally from HC, to the extent that it landed him in court, and which, as far as I can see, doesn't really bear scrutiny. The police have said repeatedly that they talked to him multiple times and that he cooperated fully.

Likewise, people say again and again that the police didn't do enough searches or look at enough CCTV, but - unless you think they're outright lying about what was done - the facts just don't agree. The police actually looked at over 1200 hours of CCTV (according to the link below - I've seen 1500 quoted previously). That's one officer doing nothing but reviewing CCTV images every working hour of every working day for eight months (not that that's probably how it was done). They knocked up 4000 households and did 400 full-scale searches, including using specialist search teams. That's not nothing. That's a lot of work and a lot of budget. Would they really spend all that time and money searching for her - but then not bother investigating the one person her family insisted knew more about her disappearance than anyone? I don't think so. It doesn't make sense.

Leah Croucher: 'No lead' in 'bewildering' 2019 disappearance

I do agree with you that it seems Leah was being secretive about something. If I were a betting person, my guess would be on a concealed pregnancy. It's been said that she became moody and secretive around the autumn of 2018, and that she didn't maintain her TKD training schedule over that winter, supposedly because of a foot injury, although she walked to work and back every day. By February 2019, she would have been approaching 20 weeks. As a fit young woman in her first pregnancy, she still wouldn't really be showing by then, but it wouldn't be long, particularly with a family holiday imminent. She is always described as petite, fit and slim, but the photos from around the time of her disappearance show that actually she was carrying some extra weight and her face looks quite puffy. So my guess - and it's only a guess - is that her disappearance was connected to a decision precipitated by a pregnancy she finally had to face up to after months of hiding it. Whether we'd then be talking about a voluntary disappearance or a self-harm scenario, I am less sure, but I tend to think she would have been found by now if she had killed herself.

I'm going to add some pictures just to show the contrast in her appearance:

View attachment 306345 View attachment 306346 View attachment 306347

JMO and pure speculation.

(ETA: Pic copyright the Croucher family, except the CCTV which is TVP.)

Totally agree with you regarding the amount of hours put into checking the CCTV, lots of work and effort.

However for me the sticking point is still the disparity between X's version of their relationship and Leah's. Only one of them is telling the truth. I would be interested to know what his alibi is and if his family or a close friend has given it to him and if it checks out, for instance if he was out were there independent witnesses or CCTV and was this even checked?
Of course the Croucher's strongly believe Leah's version of their relationship which brings us to having the police believe one thing and the Croucher's another. In that position I would hand on my heart believe my daughter's version of events.

I know alot of people agree on a pregnancy but I don't think there was.
To me her photos are just different angles and different times in her life, most peoples weight fluctuates by a few pounds.

MOO

 

[JuicyLucy]

Totally agree with you regarding the amount of hours put into checking the CCTV, lots of work and effort.

However for me the sticking point is still the disparity between X's version of their relationship and Leah's. Only one of them is telling the truth. I would be interested to know what his alibi is and if his family or a close friend has given it to him and if it checks out, for instance if he was out were there independent witnesses or CCTV and was this even checked?
Of course the Croucher's strongly believe Leah's version of their relationship which brings us to having the police believe one thing and the Croucher's another. In that position I would hand on my heart believe my daughter's version of events.

I know alot of people agree on a pregnancy but I don't think there was.
To me her photos are just different angles and different times in her life, most peoples weight fluctuates by a few pounds.

MOO

Fair enough.

Just to add, though, that the disparity (as I understand it) is not between X's version and Leah's, but between X's characterisation of their relationship and Leah's parents' report of her version, which I think is a significant distinction. And indeed, their report of her version was very coloured by what happened next. They don't seem to have had a sense of him as Leah's secret lover at the time, only with retrospect, as a means to make sense of her disappearance. (If they had, and presuming they disapproved, I think they would have had more to say about the supposed girls' night out at the hotel.) At the time, all they noticed is that she talked about him a lot and seemed to admire him, which is rather different.

My feeling (but it's only that, I admit) is that she was stressed and unhappy because she was concealing something, imo a pregnancy, and became dependent on her friendship with him at work. Perhaps she fancied him, perhaps she even thought they might have a future together, perhaps she hoped to pass the baby off as his. Perhaps he enjoyed the attention, even enjoyed reeling her in despite knowing they didn't have a future, I don't know. This is why I can't get on board with the idea that he or his family arranged for her to disappear because of the shame of a pregnancy he had caused - because it seems clear that she admired him a lot and would have been quite manipulable in other, less alarming ways, e.g. by a promise that if she terminated this pregnancy they could get married without shame and be together properly. All this is totally hypothetical, of course. Personally, I do believe they were just friends. Also, knowing workplaces up and down the land, I can believe that people gossiped about a male-female friendship.

I'd like to know what his alibi is too! I think to be ruled out completely, he would have to come up with something more verifiable than a family member or friend vouching for him. It's never been proven to be her, but imo the crying girl on the phone by the lake was Leah, and I think she was about to leave town and was begging him to come too, which he refused obviously. If, say, he told the police about that, with timings verifiable on his phone, before the sighting was known about/announced publicly, I would think something like that would carry more weight. I'm entering the realms of pure speculation now, though.

JMO, as always.

 

[Officer Dibble]

Fair enough.

Just to add, though, that the disparity (as I understand it) is not between X's version and Leah's, but between X's characterisation of their relationship and Leah's parents' report of her version, which I think is a significant distinction. And indeed, their report of her version was very coloured by what happened next. They don't seem to have had a sense of him as Leah's secret lover at the time, only with retrospect, as a means to make sense of her disappearance. (If they had, and presuming they disapproved, I think they would have had more to say about the supposed girls' night out at the hotel.) At the time, all they noticed is that she talked about him a lot and seemed to admire him, which is rather different.

My feeling (but it's only that, I admit) is that she was stressed and unhappy because she was concealing something, imo a pregnancy, and became dependent on her friendship with him at work. Perhaps she fancied him, perhaps she even thought they might have a future together, perhaps she hoped to pass the baby off as his. Perhaps he enjoyed the attention, even enjoyed reeling her in despite knowing they didn't have a future, I don't know. This is why I can't get on board with the idea that he or his family arranged for her to disappear because of the shame of a pregnancy he had caused - because it seems clear that she admired him a lot and would have been quite manipulable in other, less alarming ways, e.g. by a promise that if she terminated this pregnancy they could get married without shame and be together properly. All this is totally hypothetical, of course. Personally, I do believe they were just friends. Also, knowing workplaces up and down the land, I can believe that people gossiped about a male-female friendship.

I'd like to know what his alibi is too! I think to be ruled out completely, he would have to come up with something more verifiable than a family member or friend vouching for him. It's never been proven to be her, but imo the crying girl on the phone by the lake was Leah, and I think she was about to leave town and was begging him to come too, which he refused obviously. If, say, he told the police about that, with timings verifiable on his phone, before the sighting was known about/announced publicly, I would think something like that would carry more weight. I'm entering the realms of pure speculation now, though.

JMO, as always.

and yet with your theory, if L fancied him then she wouldn't have been walking to work looking anything but her best and I don't think the footage of her shown to us reflects that. JMO MOO

 

[JuicyLucy]

and yet with your theory, if L fancied him then she wouldn't have been walking to work looking anything but her best and I don't think the footage of her shown to us reflects that. JMO MOO

Yes, I agree. My theory is that it was just an important friendship.

 

[WiseOwl]

Yes, I agree. My theory is that it was just an important friendship.

If it was just an important friendship then why did X refuse to show the police the messages on his phone between himself and Leah? If there was nothing going on between them then what reason would he have for this?

 

[JuicyLucy]

If it was just an important friendship then why did X refuse to show the police the messages on his phone between himself and Leah? If there was nothing going on between them then what reason would he have for this?

Is that what the police say happened?

 

[WiseOwl]

Is that what the police say happened?

It was from John Croucher's interview with Sally Murrer, MK Citizen 23 March 2020:

He said: "We worry that the police did not look more closely at him, his family, his friends. They didn't search cars or homes or workplaces. They searched the area he lives in, but that was all. He will not give permission to look at messages between the both of you. He destroyed those messages.

Full Interview:

'We think police got it wrong' say parents of missing Milton Keynes woman Leah Croucher

 

[JuicyLucy]

It was from John Croucher's interview with Sally Murrer, MK Citizen 23 March 2020:

He said: "We worry that the police did not look more closely at him, his family, his friends. They didn't search cars or homes or workplaces. They searched the area he lives in, but that was all. He will not give permission to look at messages between the both of you. He destroyed those messages.

Full Interview:

'We think police got it wrong' say parents of missing Milton Keynes woman Leah Croucher

OK, but the police say X cooperated fully.

The article also says:

'John said: "He has not talked to the police...We have reached the end. The end of waiting patiently... The end of keeping quiet."

'Police say they spoke to Mr X early in the investigation and have no reason to be suspicious.'

So really, we are back to the problem of Leah's family saying one thing and the police saying another, and I guess people have to make up their own minds about who to believe.

For me, the fact that X being investigated in early course and cooperating fully came out when HC was being prosecuted for threatening him is what tips the balance. If the police are lying, then they perjured themselves in open court. I do not find that plausible. It would have been less risky as a career (and life) move just to drop the charges against HC.

I do completely understand that Leah's family are angry and distraught, and believing that the police were incompetent or even corrupt is probably an important coping mechanism for them, as is having someone to blame. The court's handling of HC's situation suggests that they understand that as well. I may be wrong but I think that the court's decision at that time was probably only made with X's agreement too, fwiw.

Edit: Just to add that the real villain of the piece here, imo, is the MK Citizen, who are taking this poor family's distraught outpourings and publishing them under clickbait headlines that claim something factual is actually being revealed.

JMO

 

[Lindsay Lou Who]

Edit: Just to add that the real villain of the piece here, imo, is the MK Citizen, who are taking this poor family's distraught outpourings and publishing them under clickbait headlines that claim something factual is actually being revealed.

I think Leah's family are talking to MK Citizen to keep her disappearance in the headlines so people remember her and look out for her. And possibly if there is any foul play maybe someone's conscience will catch up with them eventually if they read about Leah and her families struggles since her disappearance.
It appears that the police have unfortunately made their minds up that Leah disappeared by her own doing.

I don't believe Thames Valley Police are lying or covering a crime. However there is potential they could have overlooked certain evidence. Or did they worry about investigating him due him being of ethnic minority?
If X has a watertight alibi why not say they have confirmed via CCTV where he was or that they have independent witnesses that have verified his whereabouts. They wouldn't need to give specific details, but that would certainly help take some of the speculation away from X.

 

[WiseOwl]

I was watching Gray Hughes on YouTube last night (for those who don't know him, Gray is a YouTuber in the USA who covers true crime). It suddenly came back to me that Gray had covered Leah's disappearance last year, and I remembered he said something which I thought was extremely interesting.

He was reading through some MSM articles, it was mentioning that the police were baffled by Leah's disappearance and didn't know what had happened to her on the day she disappeared - all they had was the 8.15 footage of her in Buzzacott Lane plus the knowledge that her phone had been switched off at 8.34.

He then read about the possible involvement of X, how the police had interviewed him and that he had an alibi for that morning. He then made the following comment:

'How could he have an alibi for when Leah went missing as the police themselves do not now for sure what happened that day.'

And I thought 'He's right, how can someone have an alibi for something that the police have no idea about.' Nobody knows what really happened to Leah, she could have gone missing in the morning, afternoon, evening or the following day for all we know. So HOW can X possibly give an alibi? It doesn't make any sense.

Here is the video about Leah from Gray Hughes. The first part is about Tiffany Booth and Leah's case starts at 1:54:20. The first mention of X is at 2:37:10 & the alibi mention is at 2:39:15.

 

[HollyHunter9]

I was watching Gray Hughes on YouTube last night (for those who don't know him, Gray is a YouTuber in the USA who covers true crime). It suddenly came back to me that Gray had covered Leah's disappearance last year, and I remembered he said something which I thought was extremely interesting.

He was reading through some MSM articles, it was mentioning that the police were baffled by Leah's disappearance and didn't know what had happened to her on the day she disappeared - all they had was the 8.15 footage of her in Buzzacott Lane plus the knowledge that her phone had been switched off at 8.34.

He then read about the possible involvement of X, how the police had interviewed him and that he had an alibi for that morning. He then made the following comment:

'How could he have an alibi for when Leah went missing as the police themselves do not now for sure what happened that day.'

And I thought 'He's right, how can someone have an alibi for something that the police have no idea about.' Nobody knows what really happened to Leah, she could have gone missing in the morning, afternoon, evening or the following day for all we know. So HOW can X possibly give an alibi? It doesn't make any sense.

Here is the video about Leah from Gray Hughes. The first part is about Tiffany Booth and Leah's case starts at 1:54:20. The first mention of X is at 2:37:10 & the alibi mention is at 2:39:15.

Well remembered Wiseowl. No one knows for sure what exact time Leah went missing. Her phone switched off at 8.34am but 3 witnesses claim to have seen her crying by the premier inn of the lake at 11am, they also claim she was on a phone but we know her phone left the network at 8.34am. So if this sighting is to be believed...leah could of firstly disappeared anytime that day or even the day after and secondly did she have a secret phone where messages and evidence of a relationship could be hidden?

So did the police check CCTV from the area day before, the day and the day after?

What about asking guests at the premier inn to come forward if they saw anything? You will remember further back in the thread when our theory of a meeting at the premier inn was discussed we found via google maps and street view there are a number of CCTV camera's, one pointed at the carpark and one facing out towards the lake...so where's the footage?

I've attached a screenshot and link to TVP facebook post where this info from the witnesses can be found.

Log into Facebook | Facebook

All JMO of course.

 

[WiseOwl]

IMO I believe the police made a mistake in their review of CCTV footage:

TOTAL MK 22 February 2019:

Chief Inspector Neil Kentish said: “It has been a week since Leah was last seen in Buzzacott Lane in Furzton. She was captured on CCTV at about 8.15am and has not been seen since.

“It is totally out of character for Leah to go missing. She hasn’t spoken to any family or friends, she hasn’t used her bank cards and hasn’t been on social media during this time.

“We need your help to find Leah. Have you seen her? Have you spoken to her? Have you heard someone talking about seeing or speaking to her?

“We also would like to hear from anyone with CCTV or dash-cam footage from Furzton, Emerson Valley, Shenley Lodge, Knowlhill and surrounding areas on Friday 15th February between 8am to 11am.

It's been discussed before on the thread but why did the TVP limit video footage to just 3 hours, 8 - 11 am? They should have reviewed footage before and after these times, as well in the days before and after Leah disappeared - who knows what they might have come across had they looked. I believe this was a massive oversight on their behalf considering they had no idea what had happened to her, they appear to be just covering the time between when she left home and when the 'upset' woman was last seen at Furzton Lake.

 

[Mrs Marple]

I suppose if LE believe the sighting at the lake is credible it seems logical to come to the conclusion she took her own life. It's entirely possible she hasn't been found, it happens all the time.

It's also possible Leah was seeing someone other than X. She had told her family fibs (what teen hasn't?) so perhaps she was seeing someone else and they simply weren't aware. It's plausible. I mean saying you were in one hotel when you were staying in another is next level secret.

Perhaps it's easier to direct their frustration at the police than to think Leah has taken her own life or had other secrets.

Unfortunately l don't think we, and more importantly her family, will ever know.

 

[Mrs Marple]

Also about X destroying the messages- well yes, people having affairs normally do..! Doesn't make them murderers.

 

[WiseOwl]

Also about X destroying the messages- well yes, people having affairs normally do..! Doesn't make them murderers.

You're quite right Mrs Marple, it doesn't make them a murderer.

However, X denied having an affair, he said it never happened so why delete the messages between himself and Leah?

 

[crazychris]

You're quite right Mrs Marple, it doesn't make them a murderer.

However, X denied having an affair, he said it never happened so why delete the messages between himself and Leah?

Can't the police retrieve those messages from his phone provider. Am sure they can. The provider has all the messages stored as well as records of calls made and received and call duration, times etc. Surely they can do that with Leah's phone provider too.

 

[Mrs Marple]

You're quite right Mrs Marple, it doesn't make them a murderer.

However, X denied having an affair, he said it never happened so why delete the messages between himself and Leah?

Probably because he didn't want his fiance to find out. Maybe his fiance used his phone so he deleted messages as he went along.

 

[Lindsay Lou Who]

Can't the police retrieve those messages from his phone provider. Am sure they can. The provider has all the messages stored as well as records of calls made and received and call duration, times etc. Surely they can do that with Leah's phone provider too.

I believe the police can do this. Unfortunately however they seem to be treating Leah's disappearance as voluntary and as HollyHunter9 mentioned upthread they appear to be hinting at her taking her own life.

 

[Mrs Marple]

I believe the police can do this. Unfortunately however they seem to be treating Leah's disappearance as voluntary and as HollyHunter9 mentioned upthread they appear to be hinting at her taking her own life.

It's not exactly leaving no stone unturned is it. The family have been torn apart, they deserve to feel the police have done everything they can. For whatever reason, they clearly feel otherwise. It may not be justified, but you would think the police would work with them to ensure sure they don't feel that way.

 

[HCcoffee]

I noticed someone (local to the area) on this thread said that X's alibis were apparently given by his friends and/or family? I'm always left uneasy by these kinds of alibis... That in mind, it also has me wondering about these witness sightings. I doubt they've made their names public but could it be possible the sightings were reported by X's friends/family, with the intention being to mislead police and have them believe she took her own life? Just a consideration!

Also apologies for my ignorance here, but would it not be possible to track Leah's phone or at least her/the phone's final whereabouts? I know she turned off her location settings but if it was still being used, surely it would still be pinging off towers? I'm aware her phone was eventually switched off entirely but in some instances phones can still be traced even when turned off. Thoughts?